AletheiaRivers

My prayers and well wishes are with Peter. Let him know he has friends across the ocean that are thinking of him.

YES!!!  This one is very nice.  I have a strong emotionally response when I read it.  The thought that humanity's concept of God (which might require a warehouse full of paper to contain) is still just a mere symbol...WOW! 

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I'm rereading Thomas Moore's "The Soul's Religion." Awesome book. In it he quotes Emerson:

All things have an accompaniment of magic. If the fact seem plain and thoroughly known to thee, tis plain thou knowest nothing about it.

The Tao that can be named is not the eternal Tao.

I don't hold to gnosticism as it's commonly understood, but I do think gnosis is an important facet of spirituality and religion.

 

Which "common understanding?" There are so many of them! That is the reason that I'm more comfortable with the terms Gnosis and Gnostic but less so with Gnosticism. There are Pagan Gnostics, Christian Gnostics, Jewish Gnostics, Islamic Gnostics, Universalist Gnostics, New Age Gnostics, Dan Brown Gnostics......the list goes on.

 

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Heh. Too true.

I think perhaps a better way for me to have worded my above comment is: I don't hold to a literal interpretation of pagan/Christian gnosticism, ala the cosmos is literally ruled by an evil being, or that the world of matter is evil and must be escaped ... etc ... I know that is a stereotype, but unfortunately, there are many 'stereotypical' gnostics out there.

It could be that perhaps where you are using the word gnostic, I might use the word esoteric. It's all good with me though.

I'm a yin swamp yang thing. Say that three times fast.

I have a swampy pagan core.

Oooo! That sounds nasty!

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Careful, it's contagious.

What will progressive Christians do with our swampy core?  Do we try to pretend it doesn't exist?  Pretend we are not animal, emotional, instinctual?  <<WARNING: the following question contains an assumption>> Is this why progressive Christianity is not more compelling?

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I'd say yes, that is why progressive Christianity isn't compelling overall. Much of the mystery has been tossed aside in favor of the rational, human, historical Jesus.

Personally, I embrace my swampy core. I don't necessarily believe that Jesus was literally born of a virgin or literally fed thousands with a couple of loaves and fishes, but I embrace the symbology and enjoy digging into what reality those symbols point to.

I'm probably still a pagan at my core. LOL. I have a swampy pagan core.

God is like the electrical current that flows through the circuits in your house.  Always present, waiting for a circuit to be closed.  When we flip a switch, then we get the benefit of it.

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Nice metaphor. Like Thomas Merton said, God is all around us, shining through everything, but we just don't see it. Thin places (sanctuary) helps us to see God.

That was a great article. He has a rough road ahead of him, but I applaud him for his courage. I can't really imagine being a Christian without some soft of belief in God, but as the article points out, belief often misses the point.

However, as the article points out, being Christian simply for it's political or social benefit misses the point as well.

The symbology in Christianity is a "finger pointing to the moon." To be a Christian doesn't mean focusing on, and arguing about, the finger (lol). To be a Christian doesn't mean focusing on, and arguing about, whether God (as the moon) is round or not, or ...

However, to be a Christian, I would think you'd need to believe in some sort of "moon," even if you never attempt to discuss or describe it in any way.

I think it would be an odd position to be in, a Christian atheist.

Hegel defined religion as putting philosophy into pictures.  Strange and foreboding topics like hermeneutics and metaphysics can be taught to almost anyone if they are put in story form.  While it is important not to accept these images literally, it is just as important not to reject them literally.

 

Because life is an ineffable mystery, religion speaks in pictures and symbols.  To accept or reject the symbols literally is to miss the point from two different sides.  Those who fight over whether God exists are like foolish pedestrians who praise or curse a red light as they step into oncoming traffic.  The question isn’t whether God exists like a brick exists, but rather “what part of our experience does the symbol ‘God’ reveal and what parts does it obscure?”

I really appreciate the above point. Much of conservative Christianity makes a big point about accepting the symbols found within the Scriptures as literal, which in turn causes many in liberal Christianity to reject the symbols outright. Both stances miss the point, imo too.

I've never attended a church where there was a sanctuary. We had a pulpit, up on a stage, but that's it. It was not even remotely sacred, nor was it intended to be.

I never had any experience of the sacred when I was a JW except just after I was baptized, and in all honesty, that experience made me wonder if I had just made a huge mistake by getting baptized.

Anyway ...

I think a sanctuary is important. Life has a habit of pushing us away from seeing or experiencing God. A sanctuary, or a sacred grove of trees, or an altar, or a meditation room, is a way of being reminded of what is around us all the time, and is a call to set aside the trials of life and become focused.

Worship for me, at this point since I don't attend church, consists of prayer and mindfullness. Also, gardening is sacred to me. Digging in the earth grounds and connects me to God in a very powerful way. I'd like to think I could experience that in church. I guess I'll never know if I don't go.

I think you could find a home here. We're a pretty eclectic bunch. I don't hold to gnosticism as it's commonly understood, but I do think gnosis is an important facet of spirituality and religion. I fall somewhat in the philosophical Taoist / Christian / eclectic camp.

I do believe there was a historical person named Jesus, but it's the "myth" about him that I find so very satisfying. I appreciate the perennial truths that are found in all religions, but I find those same truths to be the 'most true' when viewed through the lense of Christian incarnation theology .

It would be great if you'd stay! Welcome aboard!

Yeah, what Des said.

United Church of Christ

United Methodist

Episcopalian

Presbyterian

Lutheran (not Missouri synod)

What the heck happened?

DAR WILLIAMS

The Christians and the Pagans

Amber called her uncle, said "We're up here for the holiday,

Jane and I were having Solstice, now we need a place to stay."

And her Christ-loving uncle watched his wife hang Mary on a tree,

He watched his son hang candy canes all made with red dye number three.

He told his niece, "Its Christmas Eve, I know our life is not your style,"

She said, "Christmas is like Solstice, and we miss you and its been awhile,"

So the Christians and the Pagans sat together at the table,

Finding faith and common ground the best that they were able,

And just before the meal was served, hands were held and prayers were said,

Sending hope for peace on earth to all their gods and goddesses.

The food was great, the tree plugged in, the meal had gone without a hitch,

Till Timmy turned to Amber and said, "Is it true that youre a wtich?"

His mom jumped up and said, "The pies are burning," and she hit the kitchen,

And it was Jane who spoke, she said, "Its true, your cousin's not a Christian,"

"But we love trees, we love the snow, the friends we have, the world we share,

And you find magic from your God, and we find magic everywhere,"

So the Christians and the Pagans sat together at the table,

Finding faith and common ground the best that they were able,

And where does magic come from? I think magics in the learning,

Cause now when Christians sit with Pagans only pumpkin pies are burning.

When Amber tried to do the dishes, her aunt said, "Really, no, dont bother."

Ambers uncle saw how Amber looked like Tim and like her father.

He thought about his brother, how they hadnt spoken in a year,

He thought hed call him up and say, "Its Christmas and your daughters here."

He thought of fathers, sons and brothers, so his own son tug his sleeve, saying,

"Can I be a Pagan?" Dad said, "Well discuss it when they leave."

So the Christians and the Pagans sat together at the table,

Finding faith and common ground the best that they were able,

Lighting trees in darkness, learning new ways from the old, and

Making sense of history and drawing warmth out of the cold.

Gee guys, it's good to be back here at home.

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Yeah, I can't seem to stay away for long.

In my version of archaic reality there are tree people and rock people and they have been trying to get along since the very beginning.

Could you expand a little on that?

I have an old Currier print of the tree of life that shows fire coming out of the tips of the branches.

Cool. First thing I think of is that fire is symbolic of purification. Many interpretations there. This life certainly does purify, if we let it.

And of course when Moses struck the rock with his staff, a spring was opened up and water came from it.

Heh. I'd forgotten about that. I'm going to have to delve into the symbolism of rocks and water (from the Ancient Eastern perspective) a bit more, if I can find info. It might be significant that Moses hit the rock with a staff. Both are symbols of the axis mundi. As you intimated, perhaps the 'joining' of them (dual polaritie) symbolized some sort of unity. (I'm just musing out loud here.)

Confused yet?

Nah. I love this stuff.

Knowledge of 'good and evil' refers to the cosmic dualistic compulsion

That I agree with. Eating of the Tree of Knowledge, imo, has to do with what it means to be alive and living life in this reality. It has to do with being sentient and aware. No sentience, no awareness of dualities.

It's interesting that in many of the stories, a serpent guards the tree and grants wisdom to certain seekers. Being aware of duality (being conscious), in the Eden story, makes us more like God.

Some see the serpent as doing God's will. Some see the serpent as being God's enemy. It's interesting that the serpent, just within the Bible, seems to play a dual role. The serpents brought death in the desert. But Moses, holding a serpent high upon his staff (a cross? an axis mundi?) brought healing.

It seems obvious to me that the serpent was not a literal talking snake.

The following is excerpted from About.com. I find comparative symbology very interesting and decided I'd share.

The Tree of Life is an important symbol in nearly every culture. With its branches reaching into the sky, and roots deep in the earth, it dwells in three worlds- a link between heaven, the earth, and the underworld, uniting above and below. It is both a feminine symbol, bearing sustenance, and a masculine, visibly phallic symbol- another union.

In Jewish and Christian mythology, a tree sits at the center of both the Heavenly and Earthly Edens. The Norse cosmic World Ash, Ygdrassil, has its roots in the underworld while its branches support the abode of the Gods. The Egyptian's Holy Sycamore stood on the threshold of life and death, connecting the worlds. To the Mayas, it is Yaxche, whose branches support the heavens.

The tree has other characteristics which lend easily to symbolism. Many trees take on the appearance of death in the winter- losing their leaves, only to sprout new growth with the return of spring. This aspect makes the tree a symbol of resurrection, and a stylized tree is the symbol of many resurrected Gods- Jesus, Attis, and Osirus all have crosses as their symbols. Most of these Gods are believed to have been crucified on trees, as well. The modern Christmas tree hearkens back to trees decorated to honor Attis, the crucified God of the Greeks.

A tree also bears seeds or fruits, which contain the essence of the tree, and this continuous regeneration is a potent symbol of immortality. It is the fruit of a tree that confers immortality in the Jewish creation story. In Taoist tradition, it is a divine peach that gives the gift of immortality.

This aspect of the tree as a giver of gifts and spiritual wisdom is also quite common. It is while meditating under a Bodhi tree that Buddha received his enlightenment; the Norse God Odin received the gift of language while suspended upside down in the World Ash (an interesting parallel is the hanged man of the tarot). In Judeo-Christian mythology, the Tree of heaven is the source of the primordial rivers that water the earth- similar to the Tooba Tree of the Koran, from whose roots spring milk, honey, and wine.

This tree and its gifts of immortality are not easy to discover. It is historically difficult to find, and almost invariably guarded. The tree of Life in the Jewish bible is guarded by a Seraph (an angel in the form of a fiery serpent) bearing a flaming sword. To steal the apples of knowledge, the Greek hero Hercules had to slay a many-headed dragon Ladon. In Mayan legends, it is a serpent in the roots that must be contended with. Similarly, the Naga, or divine serpent guards the Hindu Tree. The Serpent Nidhog lives under Ygdrassil, and gnaws at the roots.

The tree as the abode of the Gods is another feature common to many mythologies; in some, the tree itself is a God. The ancient Sumerian God Dammuzi was personified as a tree, as is the Hindu Brahman. The Byzantine World tree represents the omnipotence of the Christian god.

Here is another great article.

Don't encourage me.  This site will turn into Fatherman's personal theological playground before you can say Panentheist!

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However, it is truly unique in the level of intimacy it creates between the reader and the character of Jesus.

Yeah, that.

I truly appreciated her mentioning Luke Timothy Johnson in her author's notes. He is a Catholic theologian that has written books about how the search for the historical Jesus misses the point. His approach to scripture is as "literature" and as "theology" rather than as history. It's a truly Catholic approach that I really appreciate.

"What being a Progressive Christian Means to Me"  by Fatherman

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I have missed you so much. Welcome back!

Hi Tariki. Nice to see you here. I loved your "Self Power - Other Power - Grace" post over on CR.

Welcome to TCPC!

Welcome to the board Blam! Jump in and stir stuff up.

You two are just weird.

Screw Britney Spears!  (OOPS--that didn't come out right)

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John! I'm shocked! How old did you say you are again?