ComradeInChrist

Spong is great.  I have read all of his books and can’t wait for his next one, coming out in April I think (Sin’s of Scripture).  However, I think that he goes in and say’s, ‘well what you thought was wrong, and this is what is right.’  I don’t like that so much.  I have also felt that he would destroy some old feeling about the Bible or the Church, but never really offer anything that is remotely uplifting.

Marcus Borg on the other hand.  Now if you want to read a book on the bible, or hell anything that is Christian, Borg is the man.  His style is usually not coming from the desire to destroy old thoughts about the Bible, but rather to just offer something new.  I find his writing very fresh and meaningful.  I have become much closer to God reading both Spong and Borg.

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I agree about Borg. His books have really spoken to me. Spong leaves me cold. I get the feeling that he is proposing a new orthodoxy, where as I feel we need a heterodoxy.

I just rented "Dreamkeeper" again. It's a road trip coming of age movie that deal alot with native stories and spirituality. I loved it.

I think that the buddhist story about the finger pointing at the moon is appropriate here. The bible, the church, religion etc. are all pointing to God. The trick is to look at where they are pointing rather than to see them as God.

Either God is the "Inclusive Wholeness of the World" or God is "Wholly Other". 

In my experience God is both. God permiates the universe and is also greater than the universe. I believe that when we aproach the spiritual we each find the aspect of God that we need to find. To say that our experience of God is all there is would not be humble.

Centering prayer is important to me as well. Worship at church helps me a lot. I also find any period of intense creative activity brings me close to God. And as BrotherRog said, time with my wife and kids can be very spiritual.

I live in a small town. There are nine churches, of which seven would be considered on the conservative side of centre. We generally have an all faiths carol service during the Christmas season and the Good Friday service is hosted by one of the churches. (Our turn this year). We cooperate on things like the food bank etc.

Things are very different when politics are involve. Our minister found out at the last ministerial meeting that our MP had sent a letter to seven of our local churches, but not to our church (United Church) or the Anglicans. The letter was about coordinating opposition to the federal government's upcoming legislation on marrage. This is understandable as both our church and the Anglicans have spoken in favour of same sex marriage, but it does show where the lines are drawn.

An excellent article. As Christians we often forget the social justice message that runs through the Bible.

I see belief in the rapture as counterproductive. Tho only Kingdom of God we are going to see is the one we build ourselves (with God's help). God provides the spiritual tools. It is up to us to pick them up and get to work. The twisting of Christianity into a totally individual salvation is a bad thing.

The personal transformation we experience through our relationship with God is a wonderful and beautiful experience, but that is only the first step (boot camp perhaps ). To continue to experience growth we need to roll up our sleeve and get to work.

We still can't explain how the pyramids were built or fathom how primitive people with nothing somehow managed to cut and move over 5 million blocks of stone over some distances and then haul them up- including some huge ones I recall were estimated to weigh something like 65,000 pounds each and for the CEILING of a chamber, and how they fit so well a credit card can't slide between them.

You have to realize that ancient people weren't unsophisticated, they just hadn't advanced as far as we have technologically. A good place to start on how our ancesters accomplished these things is "The Ancient Engineers" by L. Sprague DeCamp. Our ancestors were a pretty ingenious bunch!

Repent and Rebel!

Spray painted on a dumpster behind a pub.

Evidently Christianity borrowed the savior concept (as it borrowed most of its theology) from the Mysteries that were popular throughout the Mediterranean Basin during Jesus's day. What Christianity did was to take various ideas from stories associated with Mysteries (e.g., virgin birth, resurrection, etc.) and make them into a theology with Jesus at the center. I am looking forward to David Ulansey's forthcoming book on Mithraism and the development of Christianity, hoping that he will shed more light on this matter.

I've started reading "The Pagan Christ" by Tom Harpur. He looks at the astonishing similarities between Christianity and many pagan religions including Egyptian and Mithraism. His contention is that the early church took the mythological and esoteric elements of these pagan religions and literalized them. They then attempted to destroy the evidence of their plagerism.

At first I found this concept somewhat disturbing. However if this theme is repeated in many different religions it is obviously a very powerful spiritual metaphor.

I would be very interested in hearing what others think of this idea.

Hi all:

I'm 49 and living in a small town in Alberta. I'm married, two kids, a boy just turned 11 and a girl 9.

I returned to Christianity about two years ago after many years of questing. I am attending our local United Church of Canada.

My interests are my family, reading, the outdoors, politics, woodworking, and messing about with computers and electronics.

I've just finished reading "The Heart of Christianity" by Marcus Borg and have started on "The Pagan Christ" by Tom Harpur.

We have 3 dogs and several cats.

Politically I discribe myself as a Christian anarcho-libertarian social democrat .

Spiritually I am in a continual process of discovery (may it never end!).

Thanks BrotherRog

I don't know if there is an afterlife but Jesus saves me every day. I also truely believe that we are here to build God's kingdom on Earth.

It's funny how humour can cut right to the heart of the matter.

Like any other gift of God, the spiritual value of wealth is how you use it. If you use your wealth to

do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God

Micah 6:8

This applies to any gifts that God gives us. We must realize that all gifts come from God and that we should use them for God's purposes.

One of the things that I find hilarious is the emphasis that the right wing puts on Leviticus. The same book has lots of rules that these same people would never think of following. So why is this one verse God's ultimate rule and the rest are not applicable? I haven't seen the death penalty applied to adultery lately.

What it comes down to is finding a scapegoat. The right has found an issue to distract the masses from the real agenda. "Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain."

I think that science and sprituality are heading to the same place. In the end, they are both ways of understanding this marvelous universe that we live in.

The bible literalists miss so much of the wonder of God's universe. I really feel sorry for them.

Hi all:

I just got the book on interlibrary loan. I'm hoping to start reading it tonight.

I've read several books by Marcus Borg and found that all of them spoke to me. Perhaps this is because his experience of faith is similar to mine in that I grew up in a Christian faith, left due to being unable to reconcile what I was supposed to believe with reality, and then discovering the wonderful reality of Christianity without the silly stuff.

I'll comment once I have got into the book.

At the same time, the state is a separate institution, and God has certainly invested the state with the authority to "take a life": the state is allowed to go to war to defend itself when deemed necessary. For the state to NOT protect its citizens in the face of attack is to indirectly commit "murder" on them. (The criteria of when to go to war is irrelevant to this point.)

I do not see the state as a separate institution. The state is no more than the sum total of its parts (ie the citizens). I do not see that killing criminals is the best way to protect society. Revenge only hurts the one dishing it out. A society which kills people destroys its own collective morality.

Interesting... the means we use to attain the society we want don't matter, as long as we get there. If I believe executing all criminals will accomplish that, I suppose that's ok. Of course we all want to live in a just society. But you can't say we need to "figure out how to get there" and then decry one way being chosen over another. That's precisely how we're "figuring it out". We believe that one way is "right" and another way is "wrong".

If the way you choose as the "right way" does not work it is the wrong way no matter how you justify it idealogically. God calls upon us to feed the hungry, to heal the sick and to love one another. If the society we live in does not accomplish this it is "we the people" who have failed, not some mythical entity called a state.

My view on the death penalty is absolutely not!

We as the citizens of a state are the state. The state has no more right to take a life than I do. By allowing capital punishment we all become murderers.

As far as the capitalism vs socialism thing goes, I think that having some idealogical fixation on the way resources are distributed is silly. I think we need to decide what kind of society we wish to live in and then figure out how to get there. Free markets or redistribution of resouces are some of the tools we can use to accomplish our goals. As soon as people get fixated on economic systems they seem to lose all sense.

For most of history people have not look at economics as the focus of their lives. (I refer you to "The Great Transformation" by Karl Polanyi.) I think Jesus would like us to build a just and caring society. I think we need to focus on that and be pragmatic about how we go about it.

Sorry about the rant.

Interesting.

One of the ideas that I have been toying with for the past while is about the difference between the more conservative Christians and the progressives.

It seems to me that it comes down to social control.

As a progressive I embrace freedom and diversity. I believe there are many paths to God and each of us must find our own way with the help of the Spirit.

The conservative Christian seems to believe in a rigid doctrine which does not allow much in the way of difference. I believe that some people need that structure. The structure also provides a means of social control. Most conservatives seem to believe in a strict "law and order" type of Christianity.

The difference, as I see it, is that I see the human race as basicly good. The conservative sees mankind as fallen and inclined to evil.

I do not agree with the conservative world view. However it not for me to judge anyone elses spiritual path. I will complain however at any attempt to force this view on anyone else.

I hope I haven't offended anyone with my characterization of conservative belief. I am not a conservative and may be misrepresenting what they believe.

One of the problems that I see with the new age movement is that it tends to be very self centered. The emphasis is on the self rather than on the self as part of a community.

I also think that the mystical is not to be entered into lightly. You need to be prepared to explore mysticism.

Hi Ken

I am also attending a United Church, although in rural Alberta. It's great to be able to go to a church with the courage to embace diversity. I look forward to seeing your posts.

As a progressive Christian and a strong advocate for social justice I don't see how I can not be involved in the political process. If we don't advocate for the powerless who will?

An excellent example of a Christian who made a difference in politics is Tommy Douglas (my political hero ).

If we leave politics to the George Bush types how will things ever change?

I will not cease from mental fight,

Nor shall my sword sleep in my hand

Till we have built Jerusalem

In England's green and pleasant land.

 

William Blake -- Jerusalem

I live in Canada, where the end of the world escatology is much less main stream. The following article gave me a better perspective on it.

The Covert Kingdom