mzmolly

I would love to see someone like Jim Wallis with his own weekly TV show. I know there is a radio show in the works, but it's in the very beginning stages.

Anyone know of any rational Christian voices in TV/Radio?

Thanks.

I have both the 1991 "Tanakh" and the 1927 "The Holy Scriptures," both of which are tranlsations published by the Jewish Publication Society.  The 1927 is thought to be a more literal translation.  My copy of the 1927 is also two volumes, with English and Hebrew columns on each page.

 

I would also recommend the software called Bibleworks.  One of the things you can do with it is look at multiple translations at the same time, stepping through them verse by verse.  It has both the 1927 and 1991 JPS translations as well as the KJV, NKJV, RSV, NRSV, NIV, NAB, etc., and the Lenningrad Codex of the Greek New Testament, the Masoretic Text of the Hebrew Scriptures, the Septuagint, and the Vulgate.

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Very interesting, thanks for the recommendation.

Does anybody else here read a copy of the Tanakh beside the Old Testament? I just bought a copy of the Jewish Publication Society's translation today and plan on doing just that. I have a couple freinds who are Jewish that recommended I do this, as there are apparently some pretty major translation issues in the Christian version of the Tanakh, aka the Old Testament, that influence some pretty major Christian teachings.

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I haven't done so, but would be interested .. where can one find a copy?

Adding, I have requested many of these from my local library.

"Old Turtle" sounds wonderful and my library is stocked with other books by the same author!

Thanks again to all, off to search for more of your suggestions.

Thanks to all who replied for the wonderful recommendations. My child is 6 years old, sorry I did not mention that earlier.

My comments about Jesus etc being turnoffs in mailings may seem extreme to some of you, it comes from a sense of frustration that I've dealt with. Let me suggest a compromise: everytime he's mentioned in a mailing, add a couple of sentences about his stance on social issues.

I like the idea of "reclaiming" the name of Jesus. Defining Jesus in a way that meets the understanding of Progressive Christians.

Much like the UCC is doing now.

I am struggling with wanting to teach my daughter about Jesus/God etc. but most of the information available to kids is promoted from a "Conservative Christian" point of view.

Are their any good progressive Christian childrens books you all can recommend?

And, if not, who wants to help me write some.

Thanks.

I live in Canada, where the end of the world escatology is much less main stream. The following article gave me a better perspective on it.

 

The Covert Kingdom

No wonder I continually peruse Canadian real estate boards.

Excellent article, I've read this before. Sadly, we are in for another four years of this mentality in the US.

Agreed. And, I think we need a VOCAL movement that expresses "Progressive Christianity" our own version of the PTL. We need Liberal "televangelist" to come OUT with their faith. :hi:

Heck, I recently found out Billy Graham is a registered Democrat.

Great ideas. I'd love to see this group grow.

Look around your area, most of the liberal leaning OC churches welcome worship held anywhere that it can be done with proper reverance.

 

I'm not familiar with OC. Can you explain? Are the masses in latin? How can these Churches be liberal leaning without Vatican II? Is there a directory? Thanks.

A Church in my area has a Lakeside service in the summer.

I also went to a Quaker meeting that was held on someones backyard deck. There was an outstanding view of the surrounding nature, a gentle breeze, the warmth of the sun, and the faint sound of birds in our presence. It was quite peaceful.

Good luck in your search.

Tom, re: (Which leaves me wondering: Who are the 4 percent of voters who supported Kerry but believed "moral values" to be more important than the economy, the Iraq war, health care, etc.?)

 

On Nov. 2nd I received a phone call from a polling group. I told them that I voted for Kerry. They then asked me a series of questions, including "How significant was moral values to my vote." I answered "very signficant". Of course, I didn't have abortion or gay marriages in mind, rather I had the moral values of oppossing the unjust war with Iraq; the lies and deciet of the Bush Jr. administration; and the concern for health care, low income housing, poverty etc.

I agree with both of you.

And, I think we need to take the phrase "moral values" and re-define it in OUR terms.

What is moral about killing innocent people in Iraq?

What is moral about the continued lies from this administration?

What is moral about not caring for the poor?

What is moral about cutting pell grants/opportunities for Americans to succeed?

What is moral about increasing poverty?

What is moral about a lack of health care?

What is moral about ... X

We need to stop running from the issue(s) they supposedly champion and expose their hypocricy with fervor.

We need one umbrella group that welcomes all progressive christians who wish to have a political voice.

We have the so called "Moral Majority" so why not have our own counter group ?

Brotherrog, and others ... you are so helpful, thanks!

Here's a link to a very thought provoking article re: "American Left-Behindism"

 

http://www.dissidentvoice.org/May2004/Bageant0518.htm

Wow, what a great article. I can very much relate to this:

Only another liberal born into a fundamentalist clan can understand what a strange, sometimes downright hellish family circumstance it is -- how such a family can love you deeply, yet despise everything you believe in, see you as a humanist instrument of Satan, and still be right there for you when your back goes out or a divorce shatters your life. As a socialist and a half-assed lefty activist, obviously I do not find much conversational fat to chew around the Thanksgiving table. Politically and spiritually, we may be said to be dire enemies. Love and loathing coexist side by side. There is talk, but no communication. In fact, there are times when it all has science fiction overtones...times when it seems we are speaking to one another through an unearthly veil, wherein each party knows it is speaking to an alien. There is a sort of high eerie mental whine in the air. This is the sound of mutually incomprehensible worlds hurtling toward destiny, passing with great psychological friction, obvious to all, yet acknowledged by none.

I married into such a family ...

THIS ARTICLE IS SUCH A WAKE UP CALL ... It's a must read IMHO.

But to blow The Rapture off as amusing-if-scary fantasy is not being honest on my part. Cheap glibness has always been my vice, so I must say this: Personally, I've lived with The Rapture as the psychologically imprinted backdrop of my entire life. In fact, my own father believed in it until the day he died, and the last time I saw him alive we talked about The Rapture. And when he asked me, "Will you be saved?" Will you be there with me on Canaan's shore after The Rapture?" I was forced to feign belief in it to give a dying man inner solace. But that was the spiritual stuff of families, and living and dying, religion in its rightful place, the way it is supposed to be, personal and intimate -- not political. Thus, until the advent of the Reconstructionist Christian influence, I'd certainly never heard The Rapture spoken about in the context of a Texan being selected by God to prepare its way.

Now however, this apocalyptic belief, yearning really, drives an American Christian polity in the service of a grave and unnerving agenda. The pseudo-scriptural has become an apocalyptic game plan for earthly political action: To wit, the messiah can only return to earth after an apocalypse in Israel called Armageddon, which the fundamentalists are promoting with all their power so that The Rapture can take place. The first requirement was establishment of the state of Israel. Done. The next is Israel's occupation of the Middle East as a return of its "Biblical lands," which in the Reconstructionist scheme of things, means more wars. These Christian conservatives believe peace cannot ever lead to The Rapture, and indeed impedes the 1,000 year Reign of Christ. So anyone promoting peace is an enemy, a tool of Satan, hence the fundamentalist support for any and all wars Middle Eastern, in which their own kids die a death often viewed by Christian parents as a holy martyrdom of its own kind. "He (or she) died protecting this country's Christian values." One hears it over and over from parents of those killed.

BrotherRog,

 

That is exactly why the whole rapture/Left Behind thing scares me.  It's not just that I disagree with Biblical interpretation ...  on most issues I'm content to let people believe what they believe and leave it at that...

I've been so outspoken in the past against the rapture et. all because of where it leads.  If people want to believe in a kooky understanding of the future and the end of the world, then that is their perogative.  But I don't want them leading the country and making choices about nuclear weapons and human life based on such an understanding.  Sometimes I think they want Armageddon so bad they will make it happen with their own weapons and destructiveness, just to prove themselves right. 

 

:

I totally agree.

Thank YOU Brother Rog. I will pass this on!

Thank you for this very important information.

Question...

Why is it that so many people who claim to be followers of Christ or claim to be religious think GWB/Arnold? and other men like them are righteous dudes that tell the truth, are honorable and will do right by the people that they represent.  Is it that people are so fearfuly these days that they desire to follow those "cowboy" types to protect them?

 

The voices of women are especially silenced at this time.  The voices of dissent and of peace and justice and the oppressed are silenced.  The voices of reason and love are silenced. 

 

Lisa, I live in a heavily military town and many of the people I love and worship among are military families. While I always gently explain my pacifist/liberation views, there are pastoral concerns that are important as well. I think that the Bush adminstration pulled off a media coup by declaring all dissenters as un-patriotic, un-American or whatever. It didn't take the churches long to translate that into un-Christian, at least in my area. So sad..since we had a wonderful opportunity to show the world a better way.

And people wonder why many progressives stay home on Sundays? Many of the Churches have become a place to worship George Bush and the RW Fundie brigade. I worked for a local Lutheran Church (ELCA) and the political climate was so apparent that I had to leave my job.

I have started attending a UCC, and am enjoying praying for "Economic Justice" and "Peace" ... and many of the things I consider christian values.

An excellent read,

Thank you BrotherRog.

"The Bush policy has become one of potentially endless wars abroad and a domestic agenda that mostly consists of tax cuts, primarily for the rich. "Bush promised us a foreign policy of humility and a domestic policy of compassion," Joe Klein wrote in Time magazine. "He has given us a foreign policy of arrogance and a domestic policy that is cynical, myopic, and cruel."

and this...

"Once there was Rome; now there is a new Rome. Once there were barbarians; now there are many barbarians who are the Saddams of this world. And then there were the Christians who were loyal not to Rome, but to the kingdom of God. To whom will the Christians be loyal today?"

Very Good question.

FYI.. George W. Bush was born and raised an Episcopalian. He didn't practice his faith very seriously during his college and young adult years. He "came to Jesus" (i.e. was Born Again) via interactions with Billy Graham (a Southern Baptist), and, due his having moved to the Bible Belt, his Christianity has become more conservative. He became a United Methodist when he married his wife (ast that is her denomination) and yet his views are not at all in sync with United Methodist teaching. Indeed, he is the first president in U.S. history to refuse to meet with Methodist bishops! (He refused to meet with them several times prior to his attack on Iraq this past March, 2003).

 

As United Methodist myself, I feel that GWB is more a Southern Baptist than a Methodist.

 

It is interesting to note that as the Southern Baptist denomination has become more conservative over the past few decaded, Billy Graham has become more liberal! I actually hope that GWB is open to being influenced by his former mentor instead of his weekly phone conferences with other Southern Baptist leaders.

Did you know that Southern Baptists were the ONLY congregation that supported the Iraq War?

All the other major Christian denominations renounced it.

Did anyone catch the *discovery channel series* in this subject. It was very interesting.

http://shopping.discovery.com/stores/servl...productId=54854

"Step back in time to investigate Ancient Evidence that offers a new take on the major figures and events described in the Bible, the Torah and the Koran. Breakthrough scientific discoveries illuminate age-old secular depictions and scriptural accounts. Expert anthropologists, historians and geneticists comb the past to bring you closer to the sacred world than ever before.

Watch as scholars and computer animation experts collaborate for the first time ever to bring the book of Revelations to life, providing insight into what many see as a vivid description of the end of the world – from fantastic images of otherworldly creatures to detailed metaphors involving the number seven. Then, meet the man behind the metaphors as historians shed light on the book's writer – the apostle John – and provide political context for the dramatic depictions found in the bible's most controversial book."

A very sensible examination IMHO...

>mzmolly: My mother in law, who sent the letter apologized! Imagine that!

 

Molly that's amazing! I've certainly never been able to respond to End Days scare tactics in such a way that I got an apology! You must have definitely been in the right spirit when you replied!!!! 

 

If, and only if, you feel comfortable, would you consider posting part or all of your reply to her here? I could use a good example to work from! :-)

 

~ Lib

Oh my,

I guess I'd be glad too LOL EEK!!! If I can find it... I'll check and see.

I don't know how helpful this will be, as I did not get into specifics with the party involved. I simply addressed it from an "agree to disagree" perspective...

Edited to add snips of my reply as it is a very long letter and quite complicated involving several issues....

(a few snip-its)

Dear XXX,

I will make an attempt to address your concerns.

It has been apparent over the years that you and X have had some differences with X and I in the areas of child rearing, politics and religion.

xxx in a nutshell the best I can offer is that we have differences with one another that we can accept or not. We will never agree on everything, and I don’t think that is uncommon, frankly.

We feel that God is loving and forgiving, and that God will guide us if we ask him to – regardless of whether or not we attend Church. Furthermore, we don’t think that regular Church attendance is a necessary element for eternal life.

In fact, Jesus said the following:

"And whenever you pray, do not be like the hypocrites; for they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and at the street corners, so that they may be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward. But whenever you pray, go into your room and shut the door and pray to your Father who is in secret; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you."

~ (Matthew 6:5-6)

In spite of the fact that Jesus said God hears our prayers no matter where we are, we do want to find a Church that is compatible with the teachings of Christ, for many reasons. It seems that has been a more difficult task than we imagined it would be. We have not made the connection we had hoped for, nor have we found a Church that isn’t more concerned with taking in money and propping up misguided values, than teaching the values of Christ. We have found the Churches *we* visited to be largely superficial and empty in their agenda.

Lastly, we are confident in Gods love and grace, and feel that should (my husband, daughter or myself die today) we will be accepted warmly into the arms of God. I am sorry if you feel differently. However, as you know, God is our ONLY judge.

I will close by respectfully asking that going forward you come to our home, simply to enjoy our company, and accept us for who we are. If this is not possible then I understand that. Sometimes family is no fun to be around. However, if you have any suggestions or ideas for improvement they may best be left to the Lord through your prayers.

(end snipets)

Keep in mind I addressed this from a *perspective* she could understand and in a way turned the tables with the bold text above...

I doubt this will be in any way helpful, but thought I'd post it as you asked.

There are some things in the NT that can lead one to belive that Jesus was "God Himself." For example, in John 20:28, Jesus did not corrected Thomas for calling Jesus “my Lord and my God.” And Jesus did say things like, "I am in the father and the father is in me," expressing the fact that he realized he was one with God. However, those things have been misunderstood.

 

Long before Jesus was born the prophet Isaiah, expressing the "voice" of God's word, wrote: “He is my witness and my servant whom I have chosen, so you may know and believe me, and understand that I am the Holy One. Before me there was no God formed, and neither shall there be after me. I, even I, am the Lord God, and beside me there is no Savior.” – Isaiah 43:10-11

 

Jesus knew and understood that, because the OT says as much many times. That is why Jesus made it clear that he was a servant of God, and that’s why he indicated that people should not worship him, but only God. That’s why he said things like, "They worship me in vain," and “Why call me good? There is but one who is good, and that is God.” (Matthew 19:17) And this truth is expressed in other ways, such as in John 14:28 and Acts 2:22.

 

Jesus knew the truth, but he didn't write it down. Others did, and they were interested in building a new religion. They wanted to elevate the status of the Christ, and thereby elevate the status of Christianity. And whether the doctrine of preeminence was actually created by the original authors of the gospels, or whether it was created in the 4th Century when Christianity became the religion of a military empire, it is not true Christian doctrine.

 

God alone is the Holy One, the Lord God, the Lord of Hosts. And Jesus was a host, as many other human beings have been. But he was special. He was a Christ, a spiritually anointed son of man. And that is what all Christians must realize if we are to have peace and harmony in the world, and mutual respect among religions.

I totally agree. Thanks to all for the thoughtful posts.

Thanks Jeep.

I've checked out 2 books from the local library. One from Spong, one from Borg. But they are different titles?

I do hope to join you soon for a discussion however.

I think you've done the right thing, mzmolly. If your friend cannot accept that you can still be a friend and give your honest answer to his/her letter, then I think that calls into question what sort of a friend they are.

 

I have always regarded this 'end times' scenario to be a desperate attempt by fuindies to capture converts in an age when traditional 'Bible-believing' religion has less and less credibility and power. My arguments have always been that there is no evidence to show that the Biblical prophecies were intended to refer to any but their own times (e.g. the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD) and that the various vices and abuses, which  they describe as a prelude to the End, have always been very prevalent, especially in the Middle ages.

 

In my experience most Bible-thumpers are very naive and poorly-informed about history. Some think that England in the late Victorian age really was a godly and blessed couintry to live in.

 

We all know that life on earth could end at any time; my understanding is that August 14, 2116, is the most likely date, when Comet Smith-Tuttle is set to collide with Earth. but the idea that anyone could predict this 2,000 years ago is sheer fantasy. Worse , it does a disservice to what the Bible is all about, and to those who wrote it.

.

I totally agree with your assessment.

I remember "hearing exact dates" before. I recall a few such dates, one in particular dealt with the alignment of the planets in the 80's. I remember dreading that day. It came and went. My mother told me they've predicted "end times" for centuries and I began to realize that I should explore other explanations.

My mother in law, who sent the letter apologized! Imagine that!

Peace all,

and thanks for the replies.