Renunciation And Discipline

[AletheiaRivers]

I was just kidding about growing chocolate bars and marshmallows...really !

 

You were KIDDING ?!?!?! That's it. You can't join my commune!

 

 

 

 

 

Aletheia

[October's Autumn]

I wonder.....does all this talk about 'sin'...original or actual,really fit well in a progressive christianity?  Just wondering.....what are your thoughts about the

the fact that we 'recognize' the existence of sin at all....does this very recognition keep us mired in spiritual infancy?

 

Jerryb

 

I guess it depneds on how you define Progressive. I like your term "spiritual infancy." Did you coin it or pick up some where? It reminds me of Corinthians "When I was a child I thought like a child, but when I became an adult, I thought like an adult."

 

I think you may be right. When we take on ideas given to us by those who guided our beliefs when we were young (rather as Christians or as humans or both) and don't look at them critically we are kept "mired in spiritual infancy."

 

My parents, who consider themselves conservatives always told me to question anything I was taught. They did it because I went to public schools and didn't want me to just buy whatever my teachers taught me (evolution, humanism, etc.) Some issues also came up in church (I had a Sunday School teacher who taught us we'd all be 33 in heaven because Jesus died when he was 33).

 

Well, I took it farther than my parents intended me to thanks to my education both as a Psychology Major and then a Theology Major. I get very frustrated when people simply accept what they've been taught and don't think about rather or not they have value. Although sometimes I think we all need a break because it can be exhausting. I find I get growth spurts but then get emotionally tired and have to slow down.

[jerryb]

The idea of sin is not something we should easily dismiss.  I like the original definition of sin in the Greek  -- hamartia -- it is simply missing the mark ( an archery term).  Sin is falling short of the glory of God.  We all do that.  It helps to acknowledge that.  But not if it is designed to make us feel unworthy, ashamed, guilty, no-good, helpless, unpardonable, etc. 

 

Original sin is simply the reality that human beings are born with a predisposition to hurt ourselves and others.  Before that comes the Original blessing which means we are born with a predisposition to help ourselves and others.  I belive the OB is far more powerful than the OS.

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Hi Mystictrek

 

I too, like the definition of ' missing the mark'....but my next question is..Who sets the mark?

 

 

Help me somebody!

 

Jerry

[jerryb]

Hmmmm ...

 

Let's pretend the word "sin" was never brought up. It's the "archery" metaphor I had in mind all along, but the "traditional Christian" definition seems too firmly entrenched to move beyond even on a progressive Christianity forum. 

 

Instead, let's discuss (maybe, perhaps?) the idea of "aiming" ourselves towards God, rather than towards self. Becoming God-centered instead of ego-centered.

 

The Liturgical year (which I've never observed in my life) has grabbed my attention as a way to help do that, both as individuals, and as the "Body of Christ."

 

Daily meditation, perhaps in a "Centering Prayer" form comes to mind as well.

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Oh....I like your idea of 'aiming ourselves toward God....becoming God-centered instead of ego centered'. Depak said today.."If we can learn to live from our soul outward,people will see that we are connected to God, and they will believe that they can be connected to God too'. Could this idea be 'real evangelism'?

 

 

Pondering......??????

 

Jerry

[October's Autumn]

but my next question is..Who sets the mark?

 

Good Question!

 

Although I'm still looking for an answer to my question about Hebrew Bible vs. NT.

 

No more good questions until someone answers mine

[AletheiaRivers]

I debated starting a new "Sin" thread, but changed my mind. Too many valid points have been covered in this thread already.

 

Where does the concept of sin come into the bible? It is from the Hebrew Bible or only from the NT? If it is from the Hebrew Bible we need to look at the meaning in Hebrew.

 

The following is a quote from "The Rabbis Message:"

 

As you may know, in the Hebrew language there is no word for sin. The Hebrew word chet, a word used in archery to convey the sense of "missing the mark," is the word applied to what we do when we stray from the right path, from the performance of good deeds, and from following the commandments of God. We miss the mark when, in our interactions with family, friends and acquaintances, we do not treat them as equals nor fairly nor accord them the respect they deserve.

 

IF THE HEBREW word chet connotes the meaning of missing the mark, then it is the word that applies to those of us who literally seem to have poor aim. The Hebrew word teshuvah is the opposite of sin -- that is, teshuvah means "repentance." The plain meaning of the word is to "return to the path." Having missed the mark, having traveled off to the edge of the path, even leaving the path, is sin; returning to the middle of the road, to the center of the path, is teshuvah, or repentance, enabling us to hit the "bulls-eye."

 

I really appreciate OA's having brought up the question of whether the Hebrew scriptures introduce the concept of "sin." Strictly speaking, they do not. They speak of "chet," missing the mark. Sound familiar?

 

It's funny that the website I quoted goes on to say:

 

Unlike other faiths that infer that sin is the inevitable result of a moral defect, of an inherent baseness in our character, we believe that the commission of sins is something that we do, often without thinking, when we do not listen to the teachings of the Torah.

 

This is exactly my point! I've been saying that "sin" doesn't mean "moral defect" and that we need to get past thinking of it in that way. I don't think the Genesis account implies it. If every time the word "sin" in the NT was retranslated "Hamartia" instead, I think Christians might come to see that the NT writers view of sin was not what we think it was.

Edited January 15, 2006 by AletheiaRivers

[October's Autumn]

THanks Altheia for doing the footwork on this one. Like I said I'd heard the idea before but never checked up on it! I had actually forgotten about it until recently and then it came up again today.

 

Speaking of doctrination, I remember thinking as a kid that it was a sin to make a mistake in math. This came from the idea that in order to be sinless you had to be perfect! YIKES! That could be a few months worth of therapy right there!

[October's Autumn]

What are your thoughts about renunciation, ascetism and discipline? Have you read any of the Desert Father's writings? Do you practice any form of renunciation daily or yearly (like at Lent and Advent)?

 

Talk to me people! 

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Okay, now I've read the post since you directed me! The basic answer to your question is No! LOL

 

I don't observe Lent. I didn't grow up in a liturgical church and still miss the point (even though I know some really like it). I did joke that between THanksgiving and Christmas I was doing Lent early because I had sworn off desserts in an attempt not to gain weight that so often plagues Americans over the holidays. It didn't last for very long but I did practice moderation so the weight gain thing isn't an issue.

 

I find if I restrict myself on something that I'm more likely to be obsessed with it. So I'm better doing most things in moderation and life stays balanced.

 

As we discussed on the other thread I also have problems with the idea of humans being evil, orignial sin, etc. I prefer the Jewish take on it. I prefer to embrace my humanity rather than trying to subdue it. I think it is far more effective (at least for me) and pulls me away from legalism. That may not work for everyone but when I went in the opposite direction it was very damaging emotionally and physically.

[October's Autumn]

I visit other bulletin boards, not all of them Christian, and I'm impressed by the importance that PRACTICE is given in so many religions. I just don't see much of it in Christianity, outside of Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy. Why is that?

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I'm not sure from a psychological stand point but I think it may be the focus on Protestantism (sp?) on grace rather than works. I'm sure there is something deeper, though. Perhaps because practice is so much harder?

[October's Autumn]

I guess I just had such a 'steady dose' of "I'm worthless and a poor lost sinner who deserves to go to hell",when I was a fundamentist ,that I'm hoping for a better way to express my  desire for communion with God.

 

Well said. My only way of replying to this is that I found accepting myself as human and that God says I'm good. I'm still working on embracing my humanity. If you read my posts on the "Other faith Traditions" about Judaism that has a lot to do with where I'm trying to go.

 

It is an on going struggle as I grew up with similar steady doses as you did. I wonder if there is a detoxification for all that? I know some people detox their bodies. Is there a spiritual enema?

[AletheiaRivers]

I prefer the Jewish take on it. I prefer to embrace my humanity rather than trying to subdue it. I think it is far more effective (at least for me) and pulls me away from legalism.

 

I totally agree and yet, isn't it ironic that Christianity accuses Judaism of being legalistic?

 

Like I said in the OP, I used to view such disciplines as renunciation as negative. I've come to have a new appreciation for the whole idea. Yes, some Christians take it to a negative extreme. However, I would also argue that some Jews take Law observance to a negative extreme.

 

I don't think we can judge the merits of a practice based on the behavior and attitudes of it's worst adherents.

 

I think moderation is the key as well. I think the Liturgical year can be a moderate way to "practice" Christianity, just like the holy day observances are part of the practice and worship of Judaism. Heck, I call giving up lobster, shrimp, king crab and muscles an ascetic practice.

[October's Autumn]

I prefer the Jewish take on it. I prefer to embrace my humanity rather than trying to subdue it. I think it is far more effective (at least for me) and pulls me away from legalism.

 

I totally agree and yet, isn't it ironic that Christianity accuses Judaism of being legalistic?

 

 

Yes! And it drives me nutty the way people talk about "the God of the OT." They miss so much of God!

 

 

Like I said in the OP, I used to view such disciplines as renunciation as negative. I've come to have a new appreciation for the whole idea. Yes, some Christians take it to a negative extreme. However, I would also argue that some Jews take Law observance to a negative extreme.

 

Definately. My experience is limited to a liberal Conservative congregation and the Jewish people I've known. I've heard knew ideas about adding something for Lent (like exercising) rather than taking something away. That I might be able to get into.

 

I don't think we can judge the merits of a practice based on the behavior and attitudes of it's worst adherents.

 

Excellent point. I'm afraid I'd be one of the worst adherents. That is why I tend toward moderation. Some people find it quite freeing to give something up for Lent (or add something). For me it would a negative. Again, just my personality.

 

I think moderation is the key as well. I think the Liturgical year can be a moderate way to "practice" Christianity, just like the holy day observances are part of the practice and worship of Judaism. Heck, I call giving up lobster, shrimp, king crab and muscles an ascetic practice. 

 

I have no problems giving up things. I didn't eat red meat for years. I tried to be a vegetarian but wasn't getting enough protein in my system -- tofu and I don't get along. For my own health I started eating red meat again -- there is a specific reason why I do but I'm afraid it would be TMI. I also have food allergies and can only eat certain dairy products and small amount of egg (usually cooked in another food). So I lose some alternative ways of getting protein.

 

I'm off topic, here. But your comment on lobster, shrimp, etc. sent my brain in a different direction.

[Cynthia]

Some friends of mine who are conservative, orthodox Jews see the kosher laws as a path to mindfulness. By being constantly "inconvenienced", they are reminded of their quest to be people of God, to follow his path, and not to get caught up in the "world" or just the day to day stuff that distracts us.

 

That makes a lot of sense to me. When I practice lent I notice the same sort of thing. To keep it from being negative, we enjoy the Sundays off (generally standard practice, I believe???). So, during the week we remember the sacrifices God makes for us - to me, His mercy, Grace, and Love for me despite all... ( ) with a small sacrifice of something I want. (sugar & flour) It makes me think of God more often and to be more mindful. I am more peaceful during lent and don't get as caught up in stuff that doesn't matter. Then, on Sunday, (we call it God is Good Day), I make brownies for breakfast! God gave us sugar because He loves us. It makes it clear.

 

I think that doing this has made me more aware of all the things in the world that give me great pleasure - nature, hot showers, touch, sound.... He didn't have to make the world beautiful to us.... it's a constant reminder of His love.

[AletheiaRivers]

When I think of living a simpler life though, one of renunciation, I must admit that what appeals to me, is communal living. I think I'm somewhat of a hippie at heart, but the idea of living in the mountains, surrounded by quiet and beauty, living off the land, sharing with each other and focusing on God, is extremely appealing.

Oh yeah, totally! As long as I can still have my geek toys to play with....

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Hey Fred, you think any proper cult of mine would be "caught dead" without extreme bandwidth?

[AletheiaRivers]

Some friends of mine who are conservative, orthodox Jews see the kosher laws as a path to mindfulness.  By being constantly "inconvenienced", they are reminded of their quest to be people of God, to follow his path, and not to get caught up in the "world" or just the day to day stuff that distracts us.

 

That makes a lot of sense to me.  When I practice lent I notice the same sort of thing.  ...

 

I think that doing this has made me more aware of all the things in the world that give me great pleasure - nature, hot showers, touch, sound.... He didn't have to make the world beautiful to us.... it's a constant reminder of His love.

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Seeing the kosher food laws (and other "holiness laws") as paths to mindfulness is one of the main points in Rabbi Kushner's book "To Life!" Also, I appreciated how Ehret, in Early Christianities, points out again and again that to the Jews, the law was (is) a blessing.

 

Something Fred said in his Lent article fits in nicely here:

 

We may discover that some of these "luxuries" are actually addictions, and we may need to learn how to renounce them on more than just a temporary basis.  Additionally, we may confront seemingly harmless habits that mask deeper needs we have learned to neglect.  We may find that we engage in certain eating habits, for example, to drown out the voices of other needs or pains that are too difficult to address.  By fasting from those "harmless" habits, we may open the door to more healing than we imagined at first.

 

Sigh. I'm really happy with how this thread has turned out.