Jagged Zen Monkey

When I was in my late teens I started to get more into Christianity. While on that path I tried to do things that made me closer to the person I thought a Christian should be. One of the things I saw as important was honesty, so I started trying to be more honest. I wasn’t a dishonest person before but I tried to make sure what I said was truthful to the extent I could. But a weird thing happened because of that. In all honesty, I had to admit to myself that the basic premise of Christianity didn’t make sense to me. Why would a God of love require Jesus to be the ultimate blood sacrifice for forgiveness of sins? Even more so, why would a God of perfect love, perfect peace be so arrogant to require any blood sacrifices at all? So my plan to become more religious/Christian ended up eroding my Christian faith.

 

Over the years I have asked that question but have never received a decent answer. I figured people here have thought about it and I would be curious to hear some ideas.

I too struggle with any type of literal blood sacrifice. When I think of what Jesus actually did, I tend to view his sacrifice in terms of a life dedicated to the Father, which is oddly enough what we are called to do ourselves [Romans 12:1]. God does not demand spilled blood [surely], but I do think he expects us to present ourselves as living sacrifices as Jesus did. This amounts to living our lives in obedience to God's will. If we take Jesus' life, his teachings, and his actions to heart then God's will is for us to love one another and serve one another's others needs. Even Jesus, the son of God lived a life of service. This was his sacrifice as well as his reasonable duty as God's son. Likewise, we too are called to live a life of service, which is our reasonably duty as adopted children of God.

Blood signifies the seat of life, which for those who have been born again, is the Holy Spirit. To be born again simply implies being made new, given a new heart and purpose through the Spirit, which is love. The blood of Jesus, which was his seat of life is the Spirit and love of God. The blood, which is Spirit cleanses each of us from our sins, making us new creations according to God's will. The reason I believe this is because of what Jesus alluded to in John 6 when he spoke of drinking his blood and eating his flesh, which he later referred to as Spirit and life. He in effect told us that blood represents Spirit and flesh represents a life dedicated to God's will. See John 4:34. Jesus, who's food (meat) was to do his fathers will, trudged a path that few of us follow. However, we are required to follow that narrow path if we desire to enter into the kingdom of God.

We all know the way. It's as plain as the nose on our faces. It's not a difficult path by any stretch of the imagination. As a matter of fact, Jesus told us that his yoke is easy and his burden light. The yoke by which we are yoked to Christ is love. Love is God's will for us all. It is likewise written that God is love, thus it is God who guides us through his Spirit. Christ simply shares the work load with us. I think we sometimes make it more difficult than it truly is. We sometimes resist love which makes for a not so pleasant day in the field. However, when we yield amazing things happen. We are blessed whereby we are able to bless others. In closing, shed blood equates to the pouring out of God's Spirit upon humanity, through which we are cleansed from our sinful nature (the old man) and are reborn, becoming partakers of the divine nature (the new man).

Ultimate sacrifice is about presenting ourselves as a living sacrifice as Jesus did. It is about dying to the old man, and being made new creations through the Spirit. It's about becoming who we were born to be. It's about forsaking our self serving ways to pursue something beneficial to those we share this world with. It's about service, love, and sharing our blessings with our fellow man. It's about becoming the good ground so that the seed which is the Word/logos of God can grow within each of us without being strained by the world. It's about becoming a tree of life through love and wisdom, whereby we are able to bring good fruit to maturity. When the fruits we produce are love, joy, peace, gentleness, kindness, patience, faith, and self control we ourselves have become the ultimate sacrifice, even as Jesus was an ultimate sacrifice as recorded in scripture.

I absolutely did not intend to imply that this would be, in any way, questionable - that is exactly what we who are blessed with comfortable lives should do. My point was simply about generalizing Hell in this life with such varying life experiences.

 

George

I think the term hell has a predominately negative stigma attached without cause. Once upon a time the term "Christian" was a term with a negative stigma attached also. Modern Christians use the term hell to connote something brutally negative, when in reality I think hell is simply a place of learning. This place of learning is riddled with both pleasure and pain. Both pleasure and pain are needed if we wish to further ascend. Beyond this, the pains others experience often move us to compassion, whereby we come to view humanity as being one, as opposed to being something separate from ourselves. Hell isn't a bad thing, but rather it is something necessary when it comes to us developing and growing as a people.

Being that we do experience such contrasting lives, I might suggest that karma plays a major role in the quality of life we each experience. Like the rich man who lived a great life, yet failed to be a good steward, we too face certain karmic debts when we ourselves neglect the needs of those we come in contact with. I've been very blessed as well, George. However, I do my best to be a good steward by sharing my blessings with those who are in need.

If Earth was truly Hell, and failing to "make the grade" resulted in only reincarnation, I would gladly fail every time. I like Earth, and given the chance between living another life here or an uncertain existence in Heaven, I would pick reincarnation every time. Of course, I may be biased by my mostly good life as a white straight semi-Christian male.

 

Still, the world is a pretty nice place, and God is present in it. If this is Hell, I'll take it.

 

 

All that said, I do not believe in Hell at all. I hope there is an afterlife of some sort.

I quite agree with your sentiments about life not being bad. However, for many life is a nightmare. I think the goal is to lessen the woes many experience in life by being good stewards, which is something the rich man was not. I think we all have our karmic debts to pay, so life next time round may or not be as pleasant as the life you lead today. This is why I view life to a place of learning. We may very well learn to become good stewards over many lifetimes. Once we have learned to be good stewards, and embrace our call as good stewards, we are then able to move forward in God's kingdom, which is said to be a place w/o suffering. I for one strive to enter the gates of heaven, but I realize that I'm likely not yet ready to do so.

Your late night thoughts are very similar to to how I view things as well. Not exact, but close! I've not made it past my distractions, thus I'm still learning here in "hell", which could very well turn at any moment. Ahhh to be free! Maybe one day, eh?

My view is that God is everything or everything is in God, Jung the collective consciousness. Therefore, heaven and hell, good and bad, happiness and misery, peace and panic appear to be opposites, but they are only the result of opposing forces inside God. These forces in my mind are not at war as mentioned but work together to lead us to the one power or God. These forces teach us how to live and how to think so we can be happy in unity. I know with my hard head I have always learned the hard way, which is hell. Man already has this ability to be at peace, but first I know I had to realize my relation to the Whole, a relationship with God in complete unity. I don't feel God would leave a seeker of the truth without truth because it is God that impels the seeking and cares for our every need. God impels seeking through love, not fear and when one sees everything as God, one falls in love with everything, everyone and God Himself. God is not separate from anything; He is the Life of our life, the Reality within our own reality and the Soul within our being. Our union with God can be witnessed in our minds starting with the replication of the union between opposites. When I see the Christian extremist talk about their heaven and hell, I feel more attracted to their hell than heaven. I see people alive growing progressing towards God in hell and at the other extreme it seems their heaven is sterile with people who know it all and look down on others. The symbol for the Holy Ghost is a bird flying upward with two wings, heaven and hell. Once wing in the extremist view doesn't cut it, we need both.

I agree with the majority of your post. We need both pleasure and pain to ascend. To me hell is not a bad thing. Hell is merely a means to ascend and a place of learning that prepares us for greater things. If it's not heaven then it's hell is the thought here. I don't think anyone will ever know it all or be in a position to look down on others. I think those who first learn how to live effectively in love, peace, and unity will be preserved after death and sleep until the kingdom is established by the living. At which time I believe the dead will be raised (reborn) into God's kingdom. Those who have died, but who were among the first to understand how to live in the kingdom, will be the last to enter the kingdom. Many names come to mind actually. I believe they will enter the kingdom by natural means. By natural I mean by birth as a new born.

Hell is who knows what, if anything. Certainly some people believed in a physical Hell either during Jesus' life or shortly thereafter, just as there were people at the same time convinced the universe revolved around the earth. Do we have to take everything for gospel that is talked about in the bible - not literal, but that somehow it means something when quite possibly it could simply be an ignorant cultural understanding?

 

Even if Jesus did firmly believe in a heaven and hell and a sepration of the saved and unsaved - so? Could it be that even Jesus didn't get his theology 100% right?

 

I certainly don't believe in a hell as an eternal place of punishment, and I'm highly skeptical that it exists out of this dimension somehow whatesoever.

 

So then I'm left with considering is this life hell. Well, is it? I mean many of us have great lives dotted with bits of pure bliss and bits of pain and unhappiness. Some people have more or less of one or the other. But I don't think calling this life Hell and viewing it as some sort of training ground or something to 'get through' so as to move on, makes any sense. It is what it is and we deal with the good and the bad - sometimes the really bad and sometimes the really good.

 

As far as the Lazurus story goes I think it is simply a folk tale using appropriate resources available at the time to get the message across. The message being to look after your brother - whoever wrote it might have believed in a real Hell of may have simply thought such a reference would help get the message across.

Could be, but this life teaches us many things about living and how life works. If there is more after, then it likewise makes sense that this life is meant to prepare us for what's to come. If a person cannot see value in the life lessons learned here, or how life leads us to lead better lives through our experiences, then I'm not sure what to say. You, in effect, suggest that it makes no sense to think that life prepares us for the kingdom. Surely you don't think we are ready for the kingdom as we are. How would that work exactly?

If the kingdom will be free of evil and wickedness, then how exactly will anyone ever get there w/o first going through life and learning how to live in love, peace, and in unity with our fellow man? Likewise, without the knowledge of evil and its effects on our lives, I don't think we would be able to prevent ourselves from 'falling' again. In my view we can work the program and graduate knowing and understanding how to live effectively, or we can resist and not make the grade. It's the hereafter part that we don't know with any certainty.

I agree in a literal sense that hell as a place of tormenting punishment does not exist, but how then do you interpret the parable of the rich man and Lazarus? Sure, it's metaphor but how is that metaphor used and what is it meant to convey according to your understanding?

It certainly works for and makes sense to me. For some hell is a literal place of punishment. For others it is simply the grave. Still for others it is something else entirely. No matter how we view hell or the second death, Jesus most certainly taught that such a place exists. I'm not sure how Progressives view Jesus' parable of the rich man and Lazarus or how progressives view reincarnation, but the view I presented above does resonate with me. Not only is it hopeful, but I believe it is biblical also. I'd love to hear the board members views of what hell is and perhaps even an explanation of the parable of the rich man and Lazarus.

Anyone up to it? What is hell?

@ Joseph - I think that there are a few among us who when they die will in fact be raised (reborn) into a world without suffering. Eternal life? Who knows with any certainty but this is my hope. For some, the many life lessons are perhaps coming at a close and they have been prepared for the coming new world. They have perhaps finished their education and are ready for God's kingdom. I'd love to be counted among them, but I have a feeling that there are many lessons still left for me to learn in life. Maybe I will complete the course in this lifetime, maybe I won't. No matter. I think God gives us ample time to learn and that God allows us to learn at our own pace.

When my atheist cousin wrote to me with questions about hell, I wrote the following in reply. He's about as well versed in scripture as the average Christian.

"I believe we currently reside in the hell Jesus spoke of in his parables. Likewise, I believe this is where we will return if we fail to make the grade. Like the rich man in Jesus' parable, we too may very well face a potential life of torment once again if we neglect our duties in this life. I believe being reborn in this imperfect world is the second death spoken of in the book of Revelation. I believe that life on this earth as it relates to our karmic debt is the hell Jesus alluded to in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus. The earth as it exists today is a place of many trials. It is a place of suffering and torment. It's not necessarily a terrible thing for us all, but it is something that is necessary. Life is where we get our education. We learn from the many hardships we experience in life, some of which we wouldn't wish on our worst enemy. The earth, in effect, is a school where we learn how to live effectively, compassionately, and productively. The more we live, the more we learn and the easier life becomes. I believe we live our lives on this earth until we have learned how to live effectively in God's kingdom. No matter how many lifetimes it takes, I personally believe we are all destined for a perfect world.

Life is about growth, development, learning how to love, and about service. Until we put into practice what we learn and become faithful, living in harmony with those we share this world with, we will continue to experience unnecessary hardships. I believe we need this education in order to become productive members of a perfect society. You can't hardly expect a new creature (Adam/Eve) or a new born babe to know how to live effectively from the get go. For example: You can read about fire and heat and be told about fire and heat, but until you experience getting burned all you have is second hand knowledge. I simply think we are required to experience life first hand in order to understand how to live effectively. It can be no other way as far as I'm concerned. We need our education, and we gain our education by living and by learning our life lessons first hand.

I think the whole point of life and suffering is to teach us how to live appropriately in the kingdom Jesus declared to us. Without knowledge, without understanding, and without our education we cannot possibly hope to maintain a perfect kingdom as a people. We are here to learn how to conduct our lives in God's kingdom, and to learn how to live according to the statutes of our Creator. This school sux sometimes, but if we expect to get ahead in life, we need to be educated. We need to be wise and faithful. I myself want a better life than the one I have today. I am certainly learning how to lead a better life the older I get and the more educated I become, however. One day I will be fully ready to live my life in the kingdom as a well educated adult, tried and tested by life, and refined by the spirit. Until then, I fully expect to go back to school at the end of each life cycle, so that this "school" might prepare me for a future in God's kingdom.

Each of us are like children I think, and it is life that helps us mature and grow into productive members of society. We most assuredly need this education in order to maintain a perfect society in the future. We need to know and understand how to live in harmony with all things. I believe that we will one day have this knowledge, that we will come to learn how to love w/o condition, and that we will one day live together as one united people. Hell (this earth) is not so much a place of punishment as it is a place of many chances. It doesn't always seem to be fair, but it's all we've got for now. It is written that it is appointed for a man to die once, then comes the judgement. As a man I will die a "natural death", at which point I believe I will face the potential judgment of being sent back to earth to die again, which is the second death (rebirth). If I make the grade in this life, I believe I will peacefully rest and find comfort in Abraham's bosom until the kingdom is established, at which point I will be raised, or rather reborn into a world w/o suffering. This is my hope anyway. I fully believe that there is more to come after we die. This life is surely not the end of it all. I myself am looking to make the grade. I want to ace life as if it were a final exam or an interview for a perfect career. So yeah, we go through hell in order to get to heaven, just as we go through college in order to secure a future career.

This isn't so much about wanting to believe a thing as much as it's about wanting more and hoping for something better. I'm happy you have found peace as an atheist, cuz. If there is nothing more, then I'll never know. There's no harm in having hope is there? My hope actually helps me appreciate life for what it's worth. The hope I have leads me to care more about the "education" this life offers. I simply pay more attention to the lessons at hand. A hope in the after life certainly isn't required to lead a good life today, but it does give me something more to look forward to. Sure, I have some beliefs that require a good amount of faith, but they help me live a more abundant life today. Some would call me delusional and unrealistic. So what? If it helps me live a beneficial life, then I don't see how it can be a bad thing. What say you?"

I certainly didn't change his mind with our conversation, but he did tell me that he started praying again. Although I'm not certain who he's praying to. I'm pretty sure he still labels himself as an atheist, which I don't quite get. He's certainly a very unique individual, hehe.

This is a question that has been on my mind for a long time, but I never felt comfortable asking anyone about it. It seems like such an obvious thing, so obvious that I am perplexed as to why I don't understand it.

 

It is said that Jesus died for our sins. That God sacrificed his only son for us, that he paid the ultimate price. The thing I don't get is....how does this work? How does the death of one release us from sin? The sins still happened. The consequences still resound. How does the son of God dying "pay" for this? What is "payment" in this context? Is it like an exchange? A barter? If it is, why would the death of God's son (which one could argue is not a good thing) pay for sins (again, not a good thing). It's like saying that crashing my new car will release me from mortgage payment on my house. I guess what's missing for me is the relationship, the thread, connecting Jesus' death with my sins.

 

I am probably making no sense. If so, then forgive me. If you have any clue as to what I'm trying to get out here, perhaps you have insight.

It is a moral injustice to punish someone other than the person/s who committed the crime, but it is believed that God does just that. There is something fundamentally wrong with this mindset. Why would a just God punish an innocent man instead of the those who are guilty? I simply don't understand how a just God could punish an innocent man for "our" transgressions. Where is the justice in that?

I know God loves us, but if God is truly just, then wouldn't he make us take responsibility for our own actions? Did Jesus truly give his life for us, or could it be that he simply showed us the way of life? He certainly showed us how to realize God's grace. He showed us how to love, and what it meant to love.

Justice is not served by allowing the guilty to go without consequence. Nor is justice served by allowing another to pay for one's transgressions. There comes a point in life that we need to man up and take responsibility for ourselves. Many seem to disagree. I don't feel it right to pawn my sins on someone else. I feel it is wrong, and that it shows a lack of moral fiber, a lack of integrity, not to mention an utter disregard for accountability.

True grace stems from yielding to God as love, and the mercy comes by way of the transformation that takes place as a result. We live a more abundant life, we sin less which produces far less negative consequences for our actions. Live a righteous life under God's guidance, and you will know life more fully.

Jesus certainly gave his life for his friends. He called his disciples friends, so it was them who Jesus gave his life for, not us. You know when Peter cut off the guys ear? Had Jesus not rebuked Peter, what do you think would have happened? The rest would have fought to the death to save their master. They had two swords between them, and it would have been certain death had they continued to resist. Jesus knew this, just as he knew this day would come. No greater love! Jesus gave himself up in order to save the lives of his disciples. What did he do for the rest of us? He showed us the way of life. He showed us how to tap into God's grace. He showed us how to love, and what it means to love.

I was lost. Now I'm found

____________________

Love saved a man like me.

I remember reading a science magazine which said that darkness is just the absense of light. Darkness itself as an entity does not exist. Light on the hand does.

Darkness is ruled by light, just as evil is ruled by good, the student ruled by teacher, matter ruled by spirit, etc. The absence of light is darkness, the absence of good is evil, the absence of heat is cold, and so on. There are no true opposites, only an absence of something else.

Good post!

But were we ever to leave darkness entirely behind, would light even be light anymore, or simply nothingness?

 

hot-cold

dry-wet

teacher-pupil

light-dark...

 

All words for concepts or states of being, that alone, without their opposite, have no meaning at all, becoming non-being.

 

Jenell

Where does darkness end and light begin? Aren't they both the same thing, existing on opposite ends of the same pole? Take a thermometer for example. Where does cold end and hot begin? Hot and cold are the same, they only vary in degree. The same is true with dark and light, wet and dry, teacher pupil, etc. Likewise, the same is true for spirit and matter. Heat, light, spirit are the higher degrees of the three poles. Heat is higher in degree than cold. Light is higher in degree than dark. Spirit is higher in degree than matter.

Light is the same as dark, only darkness is a lesser degree of electromagnetic radiation. Cold is a lesser degree of thermal energy. Matter is made up of lower vibrations of atoms, whereas "spirit" vibrates at a much higher rate. Take an ice cube for example. An Ice cube exists as a very low rate of vibration, whereas liquid exists at a much higher rate, and then steam at an even higher rate.

Duality is an illusion. All things that seem to have opposites are in reality the same things. They merely vary in degree of vibration. Darkness is a part of light. Cold is a part of heat and so on. Evil is a part of good. The only difference is in the degree of vibration. Without darkness, light does not become a no thing, it remains as it is, operating at a higher vibration. If the vibration slowed down, darkness would reveal itself again. Throw a cup of water in the freezer and pretty soon you'll have yourself a block of ice. Take that ice and set it on a hot stove top, and it will soon liquefy then turn into steam.

I think our goal is to operate at higher frequencies, whereby good overcomes evil, spirit overcomes flesh, and light overcomes darkness. Even emotions have high and low frequencies. Joy, happiness, and love are higher vibrations than say jealously, fear, and hate. The potential of darkness, evil, etc will always be our reality, but we can largely overcome these lower states by allowing ourselves to tap into the higher frequencies.

Oasis of tranquility found through love

Nice thread, btw!