Kath

Thought I'd share this in case there are other Trekkers here :-) or if anyone else finds this hypothesis intriguing.

 

There's a course at Syracuse University, “Star Trek and the information age” which examines episodes of the series to talk about technology, society and leadership in our world. Gene’s son Rod Roddenberry was guest teacher and asked students to consider what would happen if a replicator were invented. He challenged them to imagine how society would react if we could eliminate hunger, material needs or even money itself. “Would people eventually decide to work for the good of society?” (as they do in the Trek future). Saying that he believed such a result was possible, although admittedly after a period of chaos, he asked the class to respond. Some students asserted that humanity would be capable of rising to the opportunities this breakthrough would offer. Others believed that self-interest, laziness or lingering resentment would prevent many from contributing in a world without the financial motivation to work.

 

If the world were free of poverty, hunger, and disease, would there be peace and cooperation? does technology have the capacity to change the tribal mindset that leads to conflict and violence?

 

just sort of a “what if” question, to me it seems related to PC, or Evolutionary Christianity at least.

Hi Rivanna,

"If the world were free of poverty, hunger, and disease, would there be peace and cooperation? does technology have the capacity to change the tribal mindset that leads to conflict and violence? "

I think that, yes, technology had the capacity a long time ago. But technology is a tool for evil as well as good, and sadly, evil is in coltrol and had been. However, 'good' just might be the Jedi of Star Wars, and I think it's gaining strength because of the internet.

I think it's going to take much effort to free the world of the evil grasp, but once it's done, yes, i believe we an overcome poverty,hunger and disease. But easier said than done.

The only way that will happen is if people turn off mainstream media and start researching on the internet.

We are headed into a major catastrophic situation which will leave our population struggling to stay alive.

Good news is that good guys have that technology as well as bad guys. this is what is encouraging to me.

May the force be with you.

Kath

Loved all three of those clips. Stephen Cobert is great! He and Jon Stewart are two of my favorite funny guys...both very bright.

 

Bart Erhman is an interesting guy, as well. I've watched him in debate a couple of times.

Hi Marsha,

Yes, I completely agree. I get their email weekly or so and watch their youtubed programs of interest.

It's a very subtle, tongue-in-cheek presentation and I love it. If people take him seriously, it only adds fuel to the fire, but seriously, a fire can burn itself out eventually, or we'll all end in the furnace

I love Bart Ehrman. A member of the Spong forum who used to be my friend (who actually turned on me, sadly) loaned me some cd's of his lectures and I've listened to him being interviewed on NPR (National Public Radio) and am a total fan.

Here's a man who is a scholar professor who taught Theology at Chapel Hill in NC who decided he needed to know more, and crossed over into the realm of "sorry, that's not how I see it" and his credentials speak for themselves.

Kath

I just watched an interview with Rob Bell http://www.premier.tv/?gclid=CK-Ul8Dy7qcCFcnc4Aod2yuXaw and I most definitely will read his book. Maybe all of them. I like what he has to say and his approach to teaching about Jesus. He's humble, educated, and seems to me exactly what I like in a minister.

BTW, when I said he seems to take the bible literally, I meant that he does in that his interpretation of what Jesus said and the circumstances he said it under still follows what is written in the bible. So, I guess depending upon in what context the written quotes of Jesus are percieved can change the interpretation. That's how I see it anyway

I actually am tempted to walk over to blow the dust off my bible as well, (Norm)

Kath

Rivanna,

Thanks for the suggestion. Many of the members of the old Spong forum have read that book and although I had intended to read it, never got around to it. I think I'll get Love Wins as well. Velvet Elvis sounds intriguing.

Kath

I am utterly fascinated by how much controversy there is regarding Love Wins by Rob Bell.

 

I am not reading it right now, but I'm curious if anyone here is, and what they think of it. Thanks.

Nick,

I googled and my interest was certainly tweaked by the trailer http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ODUvw2McL8g

But then, I watched a few other related videos and what I'd like to know is, what the controversy is about this person and what he suggests.

He's clearly into the literal interpretation of the bible, but just what is different about his message?

Is it....http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r4p8qxGbpOk

or is there some other esoteric connection he's making?

Kath

Hi Kath,Norm,

I ran across some information that reminds one of the Spong genre of thought, that you both might find enlightening and edifying. It's called the "Shadow of the Third Century".It addresses where we possibly went wrong in our religious mindset.

I posted it here on the forum with the link. Look for my latest post. If you don't find it, just google that title,It should come up.

The Juanster

Juansterooni,

(Juan, first I want to mention that it was I who dubbed you the Juanster in our Spong forum . I'm sure everyone is thrilled with that bit of trivia)

I read through it quickly and am going to print it out. I think whomever wrote it is brilliant and I look forward to reading it.

xoKath

I've always been inspired by the lyrics found in U2 songs:

 

 

 

NORM

Good one, Norm.

I also love Lennon's, "Imagine"

http://www.keno.org/john_lennon/Imagine.htm

and "what if God were one of us"

Kath

".... Slavish devotion to the Bible is a bad thing, and a whole host of horrible things are done in the name of Biblical inerrancy and other problematic theological ideals which you will not found defended by the average poster here..."

I agree with you and disagree with George W. He maintains that "The Bible does not make people racist, sexist or homophobic..." I believe that the bible does, in fact, influence some people to the point of making them become all of those things because of the powerful influence it has over people.

They read the bible and take it literally. The inerrancies take the form of interpretation as well as inaccuracies in translation and possible content. People often let the clergy do the thinking and just listen to the fire and brimstone and think they will be on the path to heaven if they only follow the teachings of the bible.

I was once, very briefly, held under the spell. I look back on what I can only be described as having drunk the coolaid and wonder how that could happen. It's a very powerful thing, Christian teachings.

If I can call myself a progressive Christian, it would only be because I believe in the concept, if not the reality of a man named Jesus who taught the way I believe people should follow. To me, that is progress, leaving the bible behind and incorporating other cultures similar values toward mankind.

Kath

Just the place for me, this forum: Also a brand new member (yesterday, 3/9). Despite pc familiarity, can't get a handle on the site, which, as I'm beginning to understand is going through its own growing pains. So, I'll keep watching here to get better sense of it. Meanwhile, I'm a former RC priest in 80th year, variety of post clerical experiences, academic and other, muy simpatico with Spong's thinking and analyses, happily learning student of his scriptural commentaries, generally benign malcontent respecting matters of organzied religion. Mostly looking for interchanges about current cosmology and a dozen related subjects, philosophical mostly, but theological too from broadly Christian orientation..

Hi Mick!

Seriously? A former RCP in 80th year of life who is amazingly progressive and still searching and open to other thoughts and perspectives?

Wow!

I admire you already.

I think this forum might be a great place to find so many people from different walks of life and perspectives, and I look forward to hearing yours.

Kath

coolbeans! I look forward to it.

Hey, Norm~

You're far from the Norm and in a very good way. Seems we will settle in with a forum that works for us, and maybe this might fit the bill.

I'm giving it a go.

I totally agree with you about the story of Jesus coming to the aid of a woman scorned. That in itself is something that gets my attention as well. Whether or not the bible is valid as far as the word of God, that situation, for example shows us that not much changes in life, whether or not 'religion' expresses it for it's own purposes.

What the biblical writings are for me are basically a confirmation that (as I said) nothing changes in human life. Situations remain the same and people have developed religions in order to give them some order and confirmation in that process.

Those bigots are nothing in themselves. They're just lost people who are clueless and rather stupid and we have to look at them as people with road rage. Forgive them for they know not. Period. :-)

I look forward to interaction with people like you on this forum. I will miss our old forum, but I think this could be a good advancement, actually.

Kath

I think the issue of sexual orientation is a defining moment in the Church today. So far, I think the Church as a whole is failing miserably. Hell, there are still churches that won't even allow women full participation in anything other than the education of children (and the women who do invariable affirm the patriarchal, homophobic vision of Christianity).

 

I am encouraged by what I read and hear of progressive churches who embrace all members of the human community. I hate to be pessimistic, but I think it too little too late. The rest of the world has passed by leaving the Church in the dust. It's no surprise that the only churches that appear to be growing are those that stubbornly refuse to evolve.

 

I hope that I am wrong (and is part of the reason for joining this forum) and that the Christian Church can evolve past our historic prejudices. I've always imagined that the Jesus described in legend was a reformer and radical element of change. That's the Jesus I wish to follow.

 

NORM

Norm, I'm so glad I checked back on the forum tonite.

You express my thoughts exactly about the Jesus I wish to acknowledge and appreciate. If he didn't exist, I find that difficult to believe and choose not to. I think he was a radical, a lover, a sympathetic man, a mover and shaker. We need someone like him today because the other side is making too much progress and what Jesus hoped to accomplish has been lost on the new 'Christians' of today.

I firmly believe that there will be a transformational evolution. (might be on another planet, but what the hey)

Kath

Hmm

That wasn't quite as contentious as I remember it. I hate when that happens.

Thanks, Nick.... I'll give it another look-see! I really like him.

Kath

I`m kind of lost, where have all my friends gone - Judith and the good old friends, I can´t get on the old spong Forum, just renewed my subscription. Where do I go from here, found this one, but it doesn´t seem to be the same. Something is missing. Joe

yeah! ...... US!!!

We'll figure it out, not to worry! Or else we'll find another forum, but let's try to work with this one for a while and see where it goes.....?

Kath

Hello, Dave~

While your position has been supported by several on the old forum, including myself, these debates and biblical references aren't going away anytime soon.

For there to be any change, the thought process of those who do believe in the literacy of the bible also has to change, and that will take some doing. I reference biblical quotes as a means to put it on the table and dissect it, so that there may be some change in the process. When people have been raised thinking the bible is the word of God, they have to be shown otherwise.

Webster's dictionary and the Encyclopedia Brittanica are becoming extinct in form and substance as new information is found and published online. This transition might be possible for the book which has sold more copies in history than any other publication, but it won't happen if subjects like this are abandoned.

There is much work to be done.

Tick-tock, tick-tock.

Kath

Hi Noel! Thanks for this response! I'll definitely do the request, thank you. Wow! From a Roman Catholic point of view? What an undertaking! Good to know there are some Catholics who consider themselves progressive. I guess in a way I shouldn't be surprised because, having been raised myself as primarily a Catholic, I realize they don't really get into the bible all that much as far as the fire and brimstone condemnation thing.

When I was young, I didn't understand a thing the priests were doing and that was fine with me. I just liked sitting in the church, smelling the incense, looking at the pretty colors in the vestuses (sp?) stained windows and candles. I loved that you could just say 10 hail marys and 5 our fathers and all would be put right rather than burning in the fires of hell if you slipped up. Stlll waters run deep I guess.

In any case, congratulations on your book and I'm sure it will be a winner.

Kath

Yeah, I read that article as well.

 

Based on my interactions with conservative fans of Colbert, I think some of them really are that clueless, and others aren't. Some people seem to know he's intentionally a parody, but still thinks he stumbled on and says "the politically incorrect truth" on a regular basis (even if he doesn't know it's the truth).

 

 

Colbert is extremely fascinating when he turns his attention toward religion. He's quite left-leaning politically and is a proud Catholic who teaches Sunday School. His talents at deflating the self-righteous are well suited to religious demagogues, but at the same time he's not fully predictable. A few years back he interviewed Bart Ehrman, and kinda-sorta dropped character and started genuinely disagreeing with the demythologized account of Christianity he was offering.

 

Anyhow, I wasn't sure if this was 100% appropriate for the forum, but I felt like sharing. If it wasn't, I apologize.

Hello, Nick! (or Gramps or....) :-)

I'm glad I began perusing all the categories here and came upon your thread. I'm a huge fan of Colbert's as well as Jon Stewart. I almost went to their rally in DC but couldn't do it.

So, I searched for all Colbert/Ehrman related youtubes and from what I've seen, I didn't get that he was all that upset. However, if what you say is true about his teaching CCD ( I heard him say that, also) I'm a tad disturbed by this 'co-mingling' situation.

I see him as an incredibly smart man who is tongue in cheek all the way. If he really is, I'd expect his format to be above board and when he feels stongly SERIOUSLY about something, I'd expect that he didn't present it in his format. I'd expect he'd be true to his personna.

Here are the interviews I came up with:

http://www.colbertnation.com/the-colbert-report-videos/70912/june-20-2006/bart-ehrman

misquoting Jesus

http://www.scripturezealot.com/2009/04/11/stephen-colbert-talks-sense-to-bart-ehrman/

Jesus interrupted

Are either of these the one to which you refer?

Great thread! Thanks!

Kath

Hi Don,

This information is good to know, thank you! I can imagine it's a fairly local situation, but I'm glad strides have been made. I've no doubt that those who have a rigid anti position will eventually fall by the wayside, just as the 'elders' in the OPC I once briefly belonged to who were opposed to any change at all (because it made them uncomfortable to deal with it all in their old age). Insert: To be honest, the person opposing a change in the church which was the "Christian" thing to do was very old, but I'm sure younger people supported his position as well. This is when you get to the nitty gritty and can actually challenge them as to exactly what it is that makes them feel uncomfortable. I find that people are either seekers or like things status quo and the reasons are simplistic to me. I take nothing on authority. I never really have in my whole 62 years of life since I first learned there was a thing called contradiction. It's not easy to be a rebel

Kath

No one is trying to defend anything, Wayseer. Bishop Spong did give his thoughts on this subject as there is nothing to defend as far as he is concerned. The reality of the matter is that there are many people who still believe that homosexuality is an abomination. Just because JSS has made this statement doesn't mean others out there are stopped dead in their tracks.

Hello, Don~

I came across something I found of interest on the subject:

http://www.worldpolicy.newschool.edu/globalrights/sexorient/hom_bibh.htm

We are faced with the inescapable and rather ironic conclusion that the condemned activities in Sodom had nothing to do with sodomy. As one Christian editor (9) wrote: "To suggest that Sodom and Gomorra is about homosexual sex is an analysis of about as much worth as suggesting that the story of Jonah and the whale is a treatise on fishing." There is still another level of irony associated with this passage: God seems to condemn the citizens for insensitive treatment and harassment of others. But, this is the favorite Biblical passage that some Christian faith groups use to attack gays and lesbians.

Kath

Hello, Don!

And it is my impression that the Hebrew word that the KJV translated as "mankind" was actually intended to describe such a person as a male cult prostitute.

This is interesting. Realizing how so many things have been mis-translated by scribes as well as the people reading the bible, it shows how it's so obviously easy to take a quote from the bible and make of it as one wishes. And people being the sheeple they most predominantly have been in orthodox churches, it would be a struggle for pastors to think on their own.

Why they would even translate as a male cult prostitute in itself says a lot, IMO. Obviously, there was homosexuality from very early on in biblical times and most likely pre-biblical eras. I remember reading Lost Christianity, buy Bart Ehrman, in which he mentions something about this. So if it existed all this time, clearly something was put into place to make it an "abomination" classic stance in Christian churches. How can something so prolific to the point of being mentioned throughout the bible (a select group of books among so many others) be made into an abomination? It had to be political.

Clearly, many of the books of the bible deal with the reality of homosexuality.

That night, after supper, just before bedtime, the homosexual men of the city rallied up around Lot’s house demanding to have intercourse with them. [v.3-5] Lot objected, by offering up his virgin daughters to them to do as they please,[v.6-8] even though they happened to be engaged.[v.14] His response infuriated the inhabitants because they didn’t want an alien resident telling them what to do. [v.9] At that point, they began to be intrusive. But before anyone could respond, the angels swiftly reacted by striking the intruders with blindness. [v.10,11] This allowed a small window of opportunity for Lot to make preparations for him and his loved ones to leave. [v.12-14]

They actually tell the story as if homosexuality is commonplace. Not to mention how he wanted to offer his virgin daughters instead. How nice.

Right now, the denomination is dealing with a proposed change in the Book of Order regarding who can be ordained, and whether language that excludes LGBT folks should be removed. Twenty years ago it wasn't even discussed, but this year it is going to be a close vote, which says to me that the denomination is moving in the right direction.

So, you mean you belong to a church that really isn't collectively all that evolved? Well, I hope you win the vote.

Thanks for your response!

Kath

Thank you, Joseph! It's a great resource. I hope it shows up on google searches as well!

Kath

I am definitely a supporter of gay rights, same-sex marriage, etc.

 

As far as how to support that biblically, I used to worry about that some, but I really don't today. I know there are interpretations on the "abomination" passages that are different from the way conservative Christianity interprets them.

 

Basically, any relationship can be an "abomination" before God, if it is loveless & abusive. Contrarily, relationships (traditional or same-sex) that are loving and nurturing do not fall into that category.

Hi Marsha~

Thanks for your response! Yes, you know this, and I know this, but I wonder how many churches which consider themselves 'progressive' are pastored by one who not only does not preach the bible literally, but is mindful of the mixed associations.

I wonder how the gay Christian population is able to find a gay-friendly church? However, as I ask the question, I'm sure there must be publications which contain information regarding this.

Kath

Hi Kath,

 

Much like I am not Dutch in another thread, I'm not Grandpa Wombat here

Nevertheless, here is a good place to start on things with the PC(USA). This page is on the ordination of homosexuals, and this one has work to deal with matters of what is Biblical.

Thanks, Nick~ I'm still new at this, so don't be surprised if I even call you "Kath" until I get the hang of it!

Kath

I belong to a "More Light" church. It is one of a small percentage of Presbyterian (PCUSA) congregations that supports full inclusion of people in the life of the church without regard to, among other things, sexual orientation. Does that help?

Thanks for your reply Grampa~

I'm glad to hear of your church. I'm not gay but I am a supporter of gay rights. Being a Presbyterian church, I wonder how they preach the bible and avoid the whole "abomination" thing.

Thanks also for response from JosephM!

Kathy