Rayosun

I guess "salvation" had a lot of appeal in an age when people had a lot of serious threats to fear all day every day of their lives. But "thank god" I've never lived in such a world.

The only way I can see to make what the scriptures have to say about "salvation" relevant to our lives in these times is to redirect today's believer to the intent of that teaching.

IMHO the whole purpose of threatening people with damnation and telling them how they could be "saved" was behavior modificiation. It's amaazing how much churchmen

were able to use their supposed connection with the deity to persuade people to behave as they wanted them to. One dramatic example that comes to mind is Pope Gregory VII

forcing the Emperor Henry IV to wait in the snow in his bare feet for three days outside of the pope's castle.

For those of you may be interested in the classical debate in the Christian world between those who believe that salvation is achieved through faith, versus those who believe that salvation is achieved through works, I use their own words at http://LiberalslikeChrist.Org/salvation.html to argue that those who wish to follow Jesus of Nazareth should believe in salvation through works, while those who wish to follow Paul of Tarsus should believe in salvation through faith.

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I've studied the matter of biblical "inerrancy" for years and I can't see how anyone with an OPEN, functioning mind can fail to see all the problems in the bible, IF they actually KNOW the bible.

See the "deluge" of evidence I have collected and published at http://LiberalslikeChrist.Org/+Believable/inerrancy-1.html .

I grew up as a very devout liberal Roman Catholic in New England. After spending the first half of my life pursuing my dream of becoming a priest however, I came to the conclusion that the higher one progresses in that hierarchy, the more dishonest and hypocritical one must be ( with very few exceptions ) .
The last half of my life I have spent in the United Methodist ministry, and since 1996 in the creation and promotion of my insightful and inspirational web sites, beginning with http://LiberalslikeChrist.Org , which offers mainly religious insights, followed by http://CatholicArrogance.Org, which shows just how wrong the R.C. church is, and http://Great-Liberal-Insights.org, which offers largely secular insights relating to the American political scene.

As my first post let me think big.

I am ready to think about a new denomination."

David,

Is thinking about still another "denomination" or "church" new or big enough?

You know we've created some 30,000 different "Christian churches" or "denominations" since Jesus passed on. And if you take a second look at what the four Gospels tell us Jesus Christ said about this institution, only 1 of the 4 Gospel writers quote Jesus as speaking that word at all, and if you tore out one or two pages out of Matthew's Gospel, there would be no mention of it left!

One billion people believe that the Roman Catholic is the only true version of the Church established by Jesus Christ and 90% of what distinguishes it from the other churches was invented long after Jesus Christ died.

All of Christendom lives and dies by "the book", and yet Jesus never bothered to write a single word, or to tell his apostles to write down and publish a single word.

I don't claim to be a prophet. And I don't want anybody sending me money. But, to believe the many people who have explored my web site and commented on it ( at http://LiberalsLikeChrist.Org/testimonials.htm ), you might find my website worth exploring.

Far from being "Religious" or "Right" Jesus rebelled against such people

in his day and they were so upset with this upstart friend of the outcast

that they not only cast him out but terminated him! See why his followers

should all be "Liberals Like Christ" at LiberalsLikeChrist.Org/Christlike

Lise & other friends,

I'm retired United Methodist minister after being a very devout Catholic for the first half of my life, climaxing with ordination and teaching in an R.C. seminary until Pope John 23 died, and the reformation with him.

Although the N.Y. is relatively progressive, I have pretty much given up hope of any church that needs much money to function being very "Liberal", as they have to sell their soul in order to keep their contributors happy. I spell this all out in a section of my web site called LiberalsLikeChrist.Org/Challenge

"Liberals Like Christ" can't offer people the benefits of face to face contact, the satisfaction of worshiping together, the smell of incence, sacramental communion, but when you can't find a church that speaks to your mind and shares your beliefs about where the world and the country is going or needs to go, then you may want to turn your computer on to nourish your soul and your mind.

Hi y'all. I have no problem with people using the term "progressive", but after seeing the way "Dubya" has appropriated the term "reform" to mean changing things in the direction that HE wants things to go, even if it's BACKWARDS, I can see people using the terms "Progress" and "Progressive" that way too. So, I much prefer the term "Liberal". The fact that Conservatives have succeeded in (TEMPORARILY) making "Liberal" a title to be ashamed of is proof positive, in my mind, of the overwhelming control Conservatives have of the communications media in the U.S.A. !

I think the vast majority of mankind would want to be "Liberal" if only they viewed it the way I (and many dictionaries) do. I define it and constrast it in great detail at a page of the web site I designed to promote

1)the idea among Christians that they might well want to be "Liberals Like Christ", and

2) the idea among Liberals who are not Christians that they might well want to be Liberals who appreciate and "like" Christ.

The portal of the site is LiberalsLikeChrist.Org.

The section where I compare and contrast "Liberalism" vs. "Conservatism" is LiberalsLikeChrist.Org/Liberals.

If anybody wants to know more about me, my bio's on the site.

Found TCPC by seaching for other Liberal Christians.

Is THAT what that face is? I thought it was the racoon that's been competing with the town for my garbage!

Looking forward to growing together with new friends. Are any of you devotees of DemocraticUnderground.com? That's the best forum that I have found for political lliberalism and there's an interesting mix of people both for and against religion in general and christianity in particular.

"The people won't care how much you know, until they know how much you care!"

A Great truth, brother:

Since retiring from the active UMC ministry, I've been able to "progress" unhindered by the huge ball and chain of the establishment. I'm not sure any church can escape the drag of hundreds if not thousands of years of doing and believing things a certain way and millions of members having to be persuaded that they have been wrong.

Just one example: read my www.LiberalsLikeChrist.Org/PaulvsAll web page, and

read the book, The Mythmaker, by the Jewish scholar Hyram Maccoby (who knows more about the Jewish dimensions AND PERSONALITIES of the New Testament than all the Christian scholars I have ever known put together), and ask yourself how many life-times it will take before "the Church" figures out that Paul of Tarsus has done Christianity more harm than good.

Does that statement blow your mind? See the point that I am making?

"I'd like to hear from others of you that are teaching your progessive faith.  Are you afraid to?  Are you able to?  Should you be expected to "keep quiet" about it?  If you are teaching, what are some of your experiences?  Have you been successful in shaking people out of their theistic and literal interpretations?"

John, ..... Baltimore, MD

John,

It's a crime that we have to feel defensive about being "Liberals" (which I prefer to "progressives"), because that's what Jesus was 2000 years ago and would be in America today. See what I mean by reading our www.LiberalsLikeChrist.Org/Liberals and www.LiberalsLikeChrist.Org/Christlike pages.

Sorry I was away from TCPC when this thread was hot, but just in case there's any life left in this important issue, I would like to invite anyone interested in this issue to the mega site below to see if they are "Liberals Like Christ" :