tpirob

....although I will admit that I tend to pull toward Christianity simply because it's what I know the most about.  Not to say that I agree with everything, but there are many things that DO make sense to me. 

Actually, I should have been more specific: I'm not evolving away from Christianity at all, far from it -- I'm just losing any great attachment to its conventional outward forms.

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I can understand that....I think most of us here would fall under that description!

Thanks for the replies Altheia and Fred......glad someone is reading my stuff!

Fred, we seem to be on amazingly similar paths here....although I will admit that I tend to pull toward Christianity simply because it's what I know the most about. Not to say that I agree with everything, but there are many things that DO make sense to me.

My brain hurts so much from hearing what every "authority" has to say on their particular belief system.....each providing compelling evidence that their beliefs are somehow superior to that of others. Whether it's atheists, Christians, Muslims, etc...each has their "proof" for their case. Each in and of themselves provide some pretty powerful stuff, but when considered relative to each other, you start to wonder who is full of crap!

Even the prospect of God without religion is amazingly compelling, which is why I might go ahead and read the book on this subject. But even an idea as simple as this will cause those adherents to say that EVERY religion is false.....which makes you wonder about the validity of the such a notion of God without religion. Sorta puts them in the same boat as every other group that says their way is the best or only way. Arrgh.....where'd I put the aspirin!?

Anyway....thanks again for listening....er...reading! I appreciate your responses!

-Rob

Welcome, Marie!

I don't know where to post it, so let me introduce myself. I'm Marie, 20 years old, young french student in Classics (ancient greek philology) and deeply concerned by every matters about progressive christianity. I'm myself a progressive catholic, involved in a political party, and I'm very interested in discussing with other progressive christians.

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Like you, I was "away" for a while because it just felt more comfortable NOT to think about things....but as you've realized, you can't just stop thinking about it. That's God working in us and telling us..."don't give up on me."

Here's my update from the last few months: I was last struggling with deciding which church to go to. I like the contemporary praise/worship style commonly found in the non-denom churches, but wasn't comfortable with the fundamentalist, "only way" theology. It seems that now I'm questioning Christianity and organized religion altogether. I feel like I'm going backwards....but am I really moving forward with this thought?

There are such strong arguments for AND against Christianity that the more I investigate, the more confused I become. I love the deep sense of worship/praise that Christians exalt for God...but as you all know....they don't always practice what they preach. I just attended a Chris Tomlin concert, and was just so happy to see thousands of people worshipping God. That is part of why I've called myself a Christian.....no other religion/spiritual group lifts up the name of God so passionately like Christians do. Of course, they're also lifting up the name of Jesus....and I don't have a problem with that. In the same way that I can't say they're right, I also can't say they're wrong either. It's not my place, nor anyone else's, I think. I just join in to praise GOD.....period.

And so, I start to wonder like many of you. What do I do....who do I believe....WHAT do I believe. I believe in God. That's it. Nothing else. That is the ONE thing that I believe regardless of what I read or what I am told. I guess now I just need to figure out whether or not I believe in (or need) religion.

I just heard of a book by Sankara Saranam titled "God Without Religion." This may help many of you, as I think it will help me, too. It has been out only a few months, and has already been highly acclaimed by other best-selling authors. It immediately grabbed my attention because of where I stand right now in my spiritual journey. I'm certain of God....but everything else I'm not so sure about.

Thank God for this board....you are an amazing group of people. I truly feel at home here, even though I don't visit often. I'll try to make it a point to. PLEASE feel free to reach out to me anytime. I'm much better at keeping in touch via e-mail than on forums! I would consider anyone here a friend, since we are all on the same journey. Heck....the whole world is on the same journey, whether or not they know it! Some of us are just at different places....but rest assured, we'll all get there. And when we finally leave this life and go to God, WATCH OUT! It's going to be awesome.....then we'll look back on this life and laugh....and perhaps wonder...."how did I not figure that out!" It really might be as simple as just believing in God with all your heart and soul...and loving your neighbor as yourself...and letting God take care of the rest.

Anyone here is welcome to e-mail me at tpirob@yahoo.com if you'd like to talk outside of these forums. I'm not an intellectual or anything....just a 31 year old guy looking for his place in this world, and trying to connect to God.

So, "Seeking Sissy".....keep the faith. You are not alone. None of us are, until God brings us together.....and so here we are. Praise be to God!

Take care, and God Bless.

-Rob

Conway, NH

tpirob@yahoo.com

Well, I was orginally "seeking", but I chickened out and left the site for a while. In the meantime, I forgot my user and password, so I came back as Sissy.  Sorry about that!

 

These posts are really interesting. I have kinda put this on a back burner because all I seem to accomplish is to get my mind all stirred up with no conclusions! 

 

I will look for some of the books, but I don't have time now to get into them.  I am in the middle of getting my youngest daughter married and moved 14 hours away!  Seems like this is taking all of my mental energy! If you have "grown" kids, you definately know what I mean.

 

To be honest, I have just considered giving up on the whole thing.  If I try to change my way of thinking (ingrained for sure), I get so depressed. It is easier to just not think.  But, of course, I do think!  So around and around I go.  I haven't read the books yet (chicken again, I guess) so I suppose I need to do that and see if lightening strikes, lol.  Can you tell that I am a worrier? 

 

I really appreciate all of the posts, and this time, I will hang around!

 

"seeking" Sissy    (lol, I really am trying to find myself)

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Perhaps, many of you, like me, have thought to yourselves, "Well, maybe it's like this where I live cause it's not a big enough city like Hollywood.-" But here's the thing though...I HAVE personally written to the most sucessful Progressive Christian churches IN hollywood..and even THEY told me that at most their Progressive contemporary service only draws 30 or 50 at the most..and these are cities bigger and what we think of as more young and cool than ours.

 

So you figure whther Hollywood or where you or I live...each of these cities are likely only to have 3 Progressive churches and each of these '3' will only draw 15 to 50 people at the most....So if we times this by 3 that means at the most..you'd have about 150 people if you combine three different Progressive churches..like let's say UMC and Presbyterian,ect..and maybe 50 to 80 and the least.  Since this, even in a combined effort of UMC and Presbyterian,ect....Here's what I suggest...

 

 

what if....in every city the few contemporary Progressive individuals coming from Catholic, UMC, Presbyterian, whatever..all gettogether and have a contemporary Progressive coffee shop, where blues and folk music could be played and different Progressive christian speakers could stand up and share positive thoughts?  So if not a church then how about a Progressive alternative cafe or coffee shop?  Where Progressive contemporary Christians from all backgrounds could meet?

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Now THAT sounds like a cool idea!

Well, maybe it's time that us Progressive Christians do the same. If they old Progressives don;t want to work with us to reach the contemporary culture with the Progressive Christian message..then maybe it's time we break off and start own non-denominational Progressive Christian churches independent from UMC,ect.

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That's exactly what I was getting at when I started this thread! I think starting a new non-denominational progressive christian church would be quite the undertaking....but certainly not impossible.

-Rob

Well we had a book discussion group at our UCC church (talking about Spong's book on resurrection) and we got quite off the subject, and got into practices. It seems a  lot of us really wanted more meaningful (perhaps contemporary and perhaps harkening back) and apparently even in this pretty progressive church this has been very controversial. I'm imagining older people in the congregation are resistant. The other thing is that archiecture does kind of place the pastor up over the congregation. Of course I mentioned that there was nothing holding us back from taking out the first three rows of pews. I mean this is not a big church. Someone said that they took one row out for hearing impaired access, and *that* was controversial. Yikes.

 

I mentioned how in my other church everyone went up in the front around the table to do communion, and someone mentioned that they had once done it by having everyone stand around the pews along the outside, and that was controversial.

 

I mentioned how a lot of the hymns dont' really deal with our more progressive sensibilities to which someone replied they wish we had hymns written after 1890. We do, but they sure aren't the majority -- I'm actually thinking 1930. We did that more in my old church but then some of them were not singable either. I really really did not like that!!

 

It seems like from this that the only way that you can do something more contemporary is to have a large enough congregation to be able to do a second service or maybe to go off and do a small faith oriented group of some kind. But it is ironic that the very fact that we don't have enough people to do a contemporary service is prob. partly responsible for not attracting more younger people. You can't very well turn your back on people who have been active for years and years, BUT you can stay active for years and years longer unless you attract more people.  I see this a major catch 22.  It is also a fact that many elderly members aren't really all that progressive even in a pretty progressive church. For example, I bet some of them have no idea we have a gay pastor. Might leave if they knew. He isn't exactly totally quiet about it either, but doesn't deliver "gay services" whatever those would be. :-)

 

BTW, I am not so interested in the typical version of a contemporary service as getting out of ruts that do the same old thing as it was done for x  no. of years without thinking about it. 

I like some of the old hymns, but I think some of them do not represent more modern beliefs. I don't like the top down communion but actually going around a table is LESS modern. So I think we need to think about things and why. Not just say we'll sing "praise music" as it is popular and modern. At my old church we had a music director who wrote some hymns that were wonderful, but not based on any set musical type. One almost got to be our "theme" which was interesting.

 

 

--des

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I can relate to what des is saying. A lot of the older people in a congregation just don't want to see any change take place. We attended a UMC back in MA, and it was mostly older people. And since they are the majority, they usually get their way. I've actually heard of people threatening to leave if the pastor did this or that. I was told of this one woman who threatened to leave if a black pastor came to the church. Well...the pastor came, and the woman left. Hard to believe this still happens, but it does.

When it comes to contemporary services, older people just don't want that type of religious experience. It's not what their used to, and they don't want any part of it. Just like they can't stand listening to today's music....it's a generational thing!

I can understand it to a point, and maybe that's where churches need to consider doing a second service so that everyone is happy. The problem is finding enough people to attend in order to make it worth while, which I'm sure is where most of the challenge lies.

In my search for churches, I have found the most of the pastors are receptive to me. I have one pastor that I'm probably meeting with tomorrow. I told him all of my concerns (love God, hate the "hellfire" preaching, wish for more contemporary services!), and he told me that those issues were "near to his heart" and he wanted to talk with me about it!

Sometimes it's just finding the right pastor to connect with. Maybe one of US will be the impetus that a church needs to make a change in their congregation.

I suggest composing an email clearly stating your beliefs, likes, dislikes, etc., and that you are longing to find a church home where you will be accepted and embraced. Send it out to individual pastors and see what you get for a response.

Send one or two of these messages to some fundamental churches too, just for fun! Just kidding! My point is, we will never know until we ASK. There may be a church out there that needs our visions and ideas to kick things off for them. You'd be creating a "home" for yourself, and doing God's work in the process...potentially reaching out to others who may feel as you do right now.

Peace,

-Rob

These lyrics are pretty recent. This is just a portion of them:

"God, for the life of me, I don't know why --

We hurt each other in...

in the name of what is right--

Oh, what we think is right.

God, for the life of me, I don't understand --

Echos every day of man's

inhumanity to man--

Man's inhumanity to man.

There's a river of sorrow...running through my heart....through the long night, I will follow......the

glimmer in the dark.....Lord, You are the human spark."

-Michael W. Smith

Peace,

-Rob

Looking over all the members here I have noted that hardly anyone tells anything about their interest. So if you don;t mind me asking. What age group are you in? Anyone here ages 25 to 35?  Anyone here from Southern Califoria? What are your interests.

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Hi BeachOfEden,

Sorry for jumping on the bandwagon so late here, but I just joined recently. Most of the info you're asking for is in my profile, but for quick reference, I am a 30 yr old guy in northern NH! And no...it's not as cold as you think up here!! Although I'd like to say to my "fundi" friends in MA that the gates of hell are frozen shut in my neck of the woods!

I see you like the beach, so something tells me I won't see you up here anytime soon!

Anyway...another thing I love is meeting new people and chatting away....so feel free to drop me a line anytime!

Peace,

-Rob

tpirob@yahoo.com

*******WWW.TCPC.COM*******

The Center For Progressive Christianity

 

 

Simple bumper sticker. Concise. Effective.

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How's this:

FIRE is for BBQ's!

www.TCPC.com

It would take a while, but they'd get it! I like Aletheia's better, though!

Other ideas? This could get interesting!

Peace,

-Rob

What I'd really like to see are Progressive House Churches! 

People are starving, I believe, for intimate communities of faith. 

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This is where I am headed as well. Regretfully, I have not participated in a church in 20 years, and like trirob I miss community and fellowship and the sharing of ritual and practice with other seekers. But my inclination is toward small groups willing to experiment open mindedly with what it means to be Christian and with vital ritual and communal practices which nourish our hunger for God. I am shy about entering an established church with established doctrine and "frozen" practices...although I am open to the possibility of finding a church where things are less rigidly defined and more open to exploration.

 

lily

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Beautiful name, Lily! That's my youngest daughter's name, too!

Anyway, thanks for the reply! I think I agree with FredP's post on this thread that finding that niche group of people may be the challenge!

I've often thought: why don't we place inexpensive local classified ads with the web address for the TCPC and include our e-mail address as a local contact? Chances are good that we'd get some kind of positive feedback/response from people interested in our viewpoints! Then there's residual word of mouth "advertising" that would stem from that. I think this would be a great way to start Progressive House Churches, no? Imagine if you were to get 100 emails from people interested in starting a House Church....wooohooo! Can I get an AMEN to that!?!

But seriously....I think one of the downsides of this website and/or forum is that it's not advertised enough. We should probably be doing our own ministry work reaching out to those who, like us, don't believe Christianity is THE ONLY way. Whether it's on the 'net, or in inexpensive newspaper classified ads, it would be a good idea to promote this website and thus increase the probablility of creating a "congregation" in our own backyard!

The TCPC could do their part by perhaps selling items on their website, like bumper stickers advertising the TCPC. I think that it would be reasonable to say that for each one of us that would slap on a TCPC bumper sticker, there would be (at least) one person out there who would join this group. I dunno....just thoughts. But from what I've read on here, I am absolutely certain that this group could grow exponentially. There are just so many people out there that don't go to church or worship God because of the way they are being preached to.

Now...for fear of sounding too preachy myself, I will shut my trap!

Peace,

-Rob

On my knees.

 

It's all about the journey.  You'll never find a church you agree with 100%... unless, perhaps (???) you're the Sr. Pastor - and I think that has it's own set of difficulties!  Remember, it's not about finding the perfect church, it's about finding a thin spot (where you feel God), a place/group/mission you feel good about being part of; a community for your kids to belong to and feel supported/restricted (in a positive peer pressure way) by. A place for joy and respite.

 

Good luck!

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Thanks, Cynthia!

Very good words of wisdom, and I really do appreciate them!

Peace,

-Rob

In my experience, "emerging" churches tend to be more moderate than truly progressive.  That said, there are some progressive churches across the U.S.

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Hi Brother Rog!

I thank you for your input! I noticed while reading various posts that you are a UM minister! I was married in a UMC, and my daughter was baptized there. That was back in MA before I moved north about a year and a half ago.

I really liked our pastor....his name is Dogba Bass and he pastors St. Paul's United Methodist Church in New Bedford, MA. What powerful sermons he delivers!

What I don't like about the church is that the mostly elderly congregation resists any change....so change has been VERY slow going. He had attempted a contemporary service, but only a handful of us were there, and it wasn't at all what I expected. I wasn't as involved in the church as I would like to be now, but it's too late to help with that ministry now that I am in NH!

Anyway, I haven't looked into the UMC here yet. It doesn't seem to be a very active church (I NEVER see anything going on there!!), and it is very small. As a minister, do you know anything about or anyone from our local UMC churches, Bro Rog? I live in Conway, NH.

I am more comfortable with lots of people around me in worship....especially people that we can relate to. I love the non-denominational contemporary worship services, but as "beachofeden" once posted, it's usually the coating they put on their "fire and brimstone" messages which I do not agree with.

Eventually I will find my way. Someone out there please say a prayer for me....I need all the help I can get!

Peace,

-Rob

Try "emerging" churches... I go to one that is EPC - Evangelical Presbyterian.  Sounds scary, but it's not    The motto of the denomination is: "In essentials unity, in non-essentials, liberty, in all things, charity.  Truth and love."  The essentials involve basic christianity... pretty exclusivistic.  No fire and brimstone - generally hell is viewed as separation from God.  The non-essentials involve social issues, things people see differently over time that often split churches.  The worship is contemporary, the music is awesome, the message is god-centered, socially active, and solid grace - to members and, more importantly, to be taken to the world by members.  Individual presbyteries and churches have a lot of leeway in this denomination, so they may vary quite a bit.

 

You might check Brian McLaren's website (sorry, not sure of the address - google!) - they may have lists of churches in various areas.

 

Godspeed and welcome to the site!

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Thanks, Cynthia. I checked out Brian's site (thanks for the tip!), but didn't find a link to area churches. I checked out his church.....sounds PERFECT for me, except it's in Maryland, and I'm not!

Peace,

-Rob

I've read similar posts on this, and being new to this site, would like to discuss this topic to see what the general feel is on this subject.

I personally do not like the threats of hellfire, nor do I want my little girls exposed to that sort of preaching. I do however love the contemporary services so often associated with the fundamentalist non-denominational churches.

I attended a UCC church yesterday, but was dissapointed to see a lack of young people, and a "boring" traditionalist service that seemed almost like a funeral. With respect to all churches....I realize the purpose is to praise God. But that is not what is happening.....I don't see any praising going on...only passive participation.

I am almost left without a choice but to go to a non-denominational church and praise God in my own way, and in the process try to tune out the fire and brimstone preaching!

Has anyone ever given thought to starting a church that would embrace our progressive Christianity, but with a contemporary flair that seems to be attracting the youth to fundamentalist churches in huge numbers?? Or do those churches already exist, and I'm just not finding them??

I don't know where to turn anymore. I am hungry for God.....and want to worship God with others, but am not having luck in this area! Please help!

Thanks!

Rob

Conway, NH

tpirob@yahoo.com