loveapple Posted July 14, 2006 Share Posted July 14, 2006 Some days I am hanging onto my faith by my fingertips. It would be so much easier to be an atheist like my husband, who was a 'born again' in his youth. However, I feel that my divine spark and myself are still in business, even though that spark is very dim sometimes! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mgf50 Posted July 14, 2006 Share Posted July 14, 2006 Soma S> The dark night of the soul is part of it, like a wheel we are at the top enjoying the fruit, but the wheel turns bringing us down to the bottom, but the wheel keeps on turning. M> I like your description of the dark night of the soul as being as being part of the wheel (I would say of transformation.) Although this has been my experience, when I am in the dark night i project that it will last forever. S. As the mind explores these things it is led to thoughts that lie beyond the grasp of the ego and reason. If the spiritual practices are done in a meaningless way, that person is wasting his time because the person who knows the significance of what he is doing can overcome the ego's tendencies and make real the Christian purpose of life. M>I think you are saying that Christion practice is only meaningful if they are done with mindfulness. This is what I like about Stiener's Christian community Church where the Eucharist (They call it the Cosecreation of Man) is perform by the priest and the congreation is to meditate or follow the words. My mind wauders but rather then "whipping" myself, I see this is part of the process. Usually my mind wonders to struggle with a problem or relationship but I allow this to be part of the spriritual practice. S> Regardless of the suffering we have experienced we are able to achieve a new state of mind and are born again, when we change our focus from the lower layers of the mind to the higher ones M> I would say we are 'born again' or transformed through suffer. My observation that transformation without suffering remains shallow and superficial It is through suffering that we learn to let go and accept the limitations and find our strengths. For me dicotomizing it into higher and lower implies rejection of part of ourselve whereas transformation resuts from self-acceptance, S> This new state of mind is living in the present and is a projection of living in eternity. The ego has pride in the past and fear for the future so letting go of the future and the past lets the ego drop away too. In reality it is impossible to live outside the present and to put God in the future because this implies that God is not eternal and present. The proof is in our experience by experiment and not theory. M> My experience is that I am most often forced to live in the moment when I am in the midst of suffering. I spent a year in hospital as a result of a complicated hip operation. I was aware of living from moment to moment when I was absorbed in somethin outside myself. For me this often took the form of stories. I remember my mother reading a storyabout a cumudgenary cat while I waited for mysecond operation. Christmas Eve I was alone in hospital but got lost in the CBC story "Sheperherd" The story about the spirit of a dead pilot. guiding a disabled plane to safe landing on an obsolete runway in the middle of nowhere. I was in that plane. S> When one concentrates only on what is happening in the present, the moment is pure awareness without any desire. To live in the past or for the future invokes memory, anticipation and causes anxiety because these are forms of desires, dreams and fantasies. It is the habit of the ego to live in this unreality, but as we discard and release all ideas contrary to the present, our experience achieves full measure in the here and now. M> I am not sure if 'letting go of the ego" is the right term. I belong to Buddhist group when I was in my twenties. They talked about 'letting go of the ego' but the also talked about "having basic confidence. To me this was a contradiction. How could one be confident if onee had no sense of who they were? I agree with what you are saying but prefer the term "self-centerness" or "self-absorbed" Ego for me, is having a strong senses and acceptance of own strengths and limitations so that that one no longer needs to be peocupied with proving one's own worth or value. One comes to this through the process of accepting suffering. I am not there yet but I have brief moments of it. S> This reality is total and whole, not the past or future because we are not looking over our shoulder or standing on our toes to see what’s ahead. We all fall into the dark night, I find myself in this predicament, when I am removed from the present. In the present moment I can feel Christ guiding my every move as if he is moving for me. M> For me sometimes Christ is the model of arcfhetype of someone who is able to let go of self by accepting sufffering, and being absorbed into the Whole. Other times, when I have a brief experience of being in the state, I see myself as being "in Christ", or in the state of Grace. I experience this briefly after a long hard stuggle to transcend, accept and work with suffering. Thank you for this conversation and giving me the opportunity to articulte both my struggle and conclusions of the process of Transformation through suffering. I appreciate the opportunity to probe this with you at a deeper level. Marilyn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mgf50 Posted July 14, 2006 Share Posted July 14, 2006 Loveapple When you describe your husband's faith, or lack of faith the cliche "Easy come, easy go" comes to mind. I'm convinced that those of us who are compelled to struggle with faith are not content with the shallow and superficial. I believe that anything with depth comes as a result of struggle and suffering. The fact that you acknowledge a divine spark within you is in itself a sign of hope. Obviously faith is important to you, despite this struggle, or you would be more willing to let go. Marilyn Some days I am hanging onto my faith by my fingertips. It would be so much easier to be an atheist like my husband, who was a 'born again' in his youth. However, I feel that my divine spark and myself are still in business, even though that spark is very dim sometimes! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soma Posted July 15, 2006 Share Posted July 15, 2006 M>I think you are saying that Christion practice is only meaningful if they are done with mindfulness. This is what I like about Stiener's Christian community Church where the Eucharist (They call it the Cosecreation of Man) is perform by the priest and the congreation is to meditate or follow the words. My mind wauders but rather then "whipping" myself, I see this is part of the process. Usually my mind wonders to struggle with a problem or relationship but I allow this to be part of the spriritual practice. That is very enlightening. You are witnessing the mind, which tells me you are beyond the mind. Watching your thoughts come and go without being attached. Yes, we all trip in the Dark Night of the Soul, but we have a great example in Jesus who tripped 3 times on his way up the mount, but he got up knowing where the corridor was leading him. In my life which gets longer day by day I have observed that my highs are not as high, but my lows are not as low, I am enjoying the show much more now that everything is even and not so choppy. Looking back over the cliff I see all the struggles to climb, the thorns and the hardships, started externally, but they brought me internally to the path which brings me so much comfort. Peace Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
loveapple Posted July 15, 2006 Share Posted July 15, 2006 When you describe your husband's faith, or lack of faith the cliche "Easy come, easy go" comes to mind. I'm convinced that those of us who are compelled to struggle with faith are not content with the shallow and superficial. I believe that anything with depth comes as a result of struggle and suffering. The fact that you acknowledge a divine spark within you is in itself a sign of hope. Obviously faith is important to you, despite this struggle, or you would be more willing to let go. As you have not met my husband I just don't know how you can make that sort of judgment on one comment of mine? My husband is an extremely intelligent man with four degrees, one in theology. The more he studied the more he found that the idea of a deity became less credible to him. Just after his 50th birthday in 1997, he realised that he no longer had any belief in God at all and the intervening years have only strengthened that opinion. It was certainly NOT easy come, easy go, much thought went into it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mgf50 Posted July 16, 2006 Share Posted July 16, 2006 [i am sorry if I jumped to conclusions. Maybe you could talk a little more about your own stuggle with faith. Marilyn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
loveapple Posted July 16, 2006 Share Posted July 16, 2006 [i am sorry if I jumped to conclusions. Maybe you could talk a little more about your own stuggle with faith. Marilyn When I was eleven I recited the 'born again' mantra because I was scared of hell-fire and for no other reason. All the time I resented God whom I blamed for putting me in that position! When I left home to marry in 1969 I left God behind too. I had my 50th birthday in 2000, which concentrates the mind wonderfully. I realised that it was unlikely that I would still be around in 50 years time so I needed to explore if I believed in God and an afterlife. I have come to the conclusion that God exists in the form of a divine spark in each one of us, which we can access if we so wish. I am doubtful if God is an external physical presence. I think the spirit or soul moves onto a higher plain when we die, but I don't believe in a physical resurrection, I can't see the point of one. I think Jesus was a good man and an example to us all, but I am not sure if I believe in all the supernatural stuff attributed to him. It might be true, but I have my doubts. That is my thinking at present. It is not writ in stone, it could change if I was otherwise convinced. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mgf50 Posted July 19, 2006 Share Posted July 19, 2006 I don't bellieved in a physical resurection either but rather that our nodies return to the earth as food for new life. I also believe that when we die, our spirits, and what we lived for remain as part of the evolutionary energy of creation. I know that the people in my life who have died remain a strong part of who I am. I thought you might be interested in Tom Harper's latest book "Livinng Waters". (He is a Canadian Anglican Priest who taught at the University of Toronto School of Theology. He says "Since following the ancient wisdom we are all of us sharer's in divinity--possessing a spark or flame of the divine within--I have argued in The Paga Christ that the diviinity protrayed by Jesus--whom the Bible insists was fully human--was essentially the same as ours. He expressed or reflected it more fully in his dramatic role then the rest of us. It is a difference of degree rather then of kind. Harper saw that Paul knew Christ in Spirit, not in the flesh. Some believe that Paul was a Gnostic who believed that Christ was the spark of the devine within each of us. This is why I am fascinated by the Gnostics. For the Gnostics Jesus manifested the Christ that is in all of us. I am finding my journey a lonely one. I am only a Christ in the gnostic sense of the words, not in the orthodox sense. However, I am not an atheist either. I find that Tom Harper and some of the other members of the Jesus Seminar make me feel I am not quite so alone. Marilyn When I was eleven I recited the 'born again' mantra because I was scared of hell-fire and for no other reason. All the time I resented God whom I blamed for putting me in that position! When I left home to marry in 1969 I left God behind too. I had my 50th birthday in 2000, which concentrates the mind wonderfully. I realised that it was unlikely that I would still be around in 50 years time so I needed to explore if I believed in God and an afterlife. I have come to the conclusion that God exists in the form of a divine spark in each one of us, which we can access if we so wish. I am doubtful if God is an external physical presence. I think the spirit or soul moves onto a higher plain when we die, but I don't believe in a physical resurrection, I can't see the point of one. I think Jesus was a good man and an example to us all, but I am not sure if I believe in all the supernatural stuff attributed to him. It might be true, but I have my doubts. That is my thinking at present. It is not writ in stone, it could change if I was otherwise convinced. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mgf50 Posted July 19, 2006 Share Posted July 19, 2006 S>That is very enlightening. You are witnessing the mind, which tells me you are beyond the mind. Watching your thoughts come and go without being attached. M< While I believein this I can't say I'm good at practicing it. One thing I find helps is chanting. It help me let go of my 'stewing' and refocus. "Abiide with me" is my favourite. S>Yes, we all trip in the Dark Night of the Soul, but we have a great example in Jesus who tripped 3 times on his way up the mount, but he got up knowing where the corridor was leading him. M>What strikes me is not that Jesus didn't experience the Dark Night of the Soul but that he accepted it. I find it helpful that even Jesus is said to have said "My God, my God, why has Thou forsaken me.' S>In my life which gets longer day by day I have observed that my highs are not as high, but my lows are not as low, I am enjoying the show much more now that everything is even and not so choppy. M> I would be interested to know more about how you got to this point. Presently, I am studying Harvey Cox's book "Fire from Heven." In the past I rejected exuberant emotion of the Pentecostals as something evil. Now, I am beginning to wonder how much this has to do with my upbring and cultural baggage. I am fascinated to read how African-Americans see their exuberant emotion as a gift from God to counter their horrendous suffering and oppression. It is also a sign of hope that the Kingdom of God would be established on earth. Their faith gave them strength to deal with suffering. "Speaking in Tongues" gives them an emotional outlet similar to what psychologist call "The Primal Scream" It was a safe outlet for their fears, anxieties and anger. I personally need somethying more calming. While I believed that for traditional African-American this emotion is authentic, it seems that within modern culture it can be manipulated. This is what I don't trust Looking back over the cliff I see all the struggles to climb, the thorns and the hardships, started externally, but they brought me internally to the path which brings me so much comfort. Peace M>This sounds to me like a process of transformation. I'd like to hear more about your story M>My understanding of Gnosticism is that they believe that knowing yourself leads to going God. The Gospel of Thomas says: "Ther is a light within a man of light, and it lights up the whole world. If he does not shine , he is in darkness." I believe this light refer to the Christ or Divine within. Meditations, dreams, prayers, chanting can lead to this self-knowledge. Instead of sin, gnostics believe that ignorance is the problem. When we don't know ourself we act out of impulses which can lead to destruction. Marilyn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soma Posted July 20, 2006 Share Posted July 20, 2006 I am 58, lived over seas 20 years and was fortunate to be guided by many individuals that I met in many countries. Some very drastic things happened to me that forced me to reflect, re-evaluate and leave the US. I lived as a monk in most of the countries with the vow of poverty and watched as local people took care of me, physically, emotionally and spiritually. Poor people in poor countries shared many things with me in India, Middle East , Africa, Europe and Asia. They showed me the Spirit, acceptance, unattachment and joy beyond the mind. I am trying to pay my debt to them by sharing those things here in the US. In 1978 I was in Iran for their revolution and the Iranians were so good to me. We must respect all life, because that is our life. The modern saints that I encountered see the value of money as a medicine for the suffering humans caught up in this world's poverty. They know that the first layers of the mind have to be satisfied and developed before the higher layers can be experienced. How can a family think of the more subtle things of life, when it can't think past lunch? If the parents of a child have no money to feed their baby, they will surely be active in the pursuit of food; therefore, they won't have the time to contemplate their pure essence or God. If modern man has a chance to make money, he surely will not reject it; the hard part is to be unattached from it. It is good to have food, shelter, nice clothes and a car, but it is not good to be consumed with them. They can also affect the mind and keep it from the higher pursuits that will make it truly happy. Acceptance, unattachment, and joy all in the Spirit of God. Salutations to the Divinity within you... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flowperson Posted July 20, 2006 Share Posted July 20, 2006 Soma: Thank you for your revealing story and astute opinions. It's no wonder that you have such an "unobstructed" view of spiritual reality. I agree that being unattached is important to receiving the gifts of the spirit, for the world of spirit being what it is, others will always attempt to load their burdens upon your shoulders when they sense that you posses spiritual direction and strength. Keeeping a balance so that your spiritual foundations are not tumbled is very difficult and we all have out methods of keeping that spiritual balance. I admire how you have come out of all that in your life with your directions intact. And, yes, being among common people who have had hard lives is a strengthening thing for one's self. There arises a set of commonalities with the "other" that is heartfelt and very hard to suppress with negativity. flow.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mgf50 Posted July 24, 2006 Share Posted July 24, 2006 S>I am 58, lived over seas 20 years and was fortunate to be guided by many individuals that I met in many countries. Some very drastic things happened to me that forced me to reflect, re-evaluate and leave the US. I lived as a monk in most of the countries with the vow of poverty and watched as local people took care of me, physically, emotionally and spiritually. Poor people in poor countries shared many things with me in India, Middle East , Africa, Europe and Asia. They showed me the Spirit, acceptance, unattachment and joy beyond the mind. I am trying to pay my debt to them by sharing those things here in the US. In 1978 I was in Iran for their revolution and the Iranians were so good to me. We must respect all life, because that is our life. M>I am fascinated by your connections and the nutring you rceived from people who were disadvantaged, particularily Iran because of the tension between Americans and Iranians, which I understand was happening at that time. I have been studing the rise of indigenous churches in African. How pentecostalism has allowed Africans have enable people to return to their anciet spiritual roots and adapt them to Christianity, although it may have been better if the did not have to adopt to Christianity to be accept. Pentecostalism has also enabled women to exercies gifts of healing and testamony which gives women skills and empowerment. Stephen Lewis, The UN ambassador for AIDS in Africa, says that he sees hope in the ability of the women in Africa turn things around. S>The modern saints that I encountered see the value of money as a medicine for the suffering humans caught up in this world's poverty. They know that the first layers of the mind have to be satisfied and developed before the higher layers can be experienced. How can a family think of the more subtle things of life, when it can't think past lunch? If the parents of a child have no money to feed their baby, they will surely be active in the pursuit of food; therefore, they won't have the time to contemplate their pure essence or God. If modern man has a chance to make money, he surely will not reject it; the hard part is to be unattached from it. It is good to have food, shelter, nice clothes and a car, but it is not good to be consumed with them. They can also affect the mind and keep it from the higher pursuits that will make it truly happy. Acceptance, unattachment, and joy all in the Spirit of God. Salutations to the Divinity within you... M> I don't have much hope that the wealthy G8 crountries have little concern for disadvantage crountries. It seems that poverty is more apt to create a culture of sharing. I was surpised to learn that when men from working class and lowincome families join the pentecostal church they save some money by not drinking etc. However, rather then spend the money on themseves, they use the money to provide supports for those less fortuanate. I see a strong link between faith and hope in disadvantage crountries like Africa. If they can't have hope in the life, their faith gives them hope in the next life. My observation is that when people have hope they are more likely to take control of their lives and turn things around. For others, faith in the next life allows them to detach from hope and attatchment to this life when suffering is too overwhelming. For me, I perfer acceptance to unattachment. I confuse unattachment with hopelessness. I perfer acceptance which means for me working with a situation with the hope that the situation will be meaningful in itself. Marilyn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soma Posted July 25, 2006 Share Posted July 25, 2006 In India as a monk for one week I could only eat what food I received from begging. As an American I was bigger than most Indians, but when I went to thier mud house with a dirt floor they gave me half of their daily ration of rice and gur (cane sugar). They were unattached in their giving because they didn't care what country, religion or situation I was in; they gave with pleasure. They had the faith that God would provide for their family the next day because they were living day to day. Similar experiences happened to me in Morrocco where I was seen as the enemy and the people helping could of been arrested because it was during the day in Ramadan. State religion demanded everyone fast during the day. Now, I am very comfortible and if I lost everything I hope to have the same mentality thanks to unatachment. I have things and know they are temporary. I don't think my family has internalized unatachment and would probably suffer. I was happy as a monk with nothing and I am happy now with comfort, thanks to unattachment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mgf50 Posted July 26, 2006 Share Posted July 26, 2006 I have a lot of confusion with unattachment with not caring, and wish to explore it with you. This may involve confessions that I am not proud of I spent a year in hospital. The first 3 months, I was actually happy for the most part. I had hope of walking again. I felt connect to people and could even be present to listen to their problems. This fell apart when I was moved to another hospital, told I would I would never walk again, and strongly felt that the staff was saying this so they did not have to make the effort to help me. Rather then be unattatched I was angry. I don't know how I could be uattached in this situation without felling hopeless and giving up. I am having difficulty seeing the diifference between severe depression wnere you just give up and unattachment Fortunate someone came along and helped me use my anger to get myself out of that situation. I could have easily just become depressed and given up. I see my sister is very unattached. When I asked her for help in getting out of the hospital she went into great detail about what a burden I was to her. I still don't understand why she could just say ''I'm sorry, but I can't cope with helping you." I heard this is blaming me for my disability. I retaliated by in effect saying I wish she were in my shoes. She said I was abusive and has become very unattatched by not speaking to me since: eight years. When my family, expecialy my mother, says things that reflect her negative attitude to my disability. I know I should be unattatched, should shut down and be seen and not heard. Instead I become angry and avoid her. Sometime, when I am feeling confident and mature, I can see how my mother lacks the intelligence to see how her middle class values devalue me. My mother's focus on pride and achievement makes her blind as to who I am as a person beyond my disability. When I try to esplain she just says what an excellent mother she was:driving me, doing my hair and telling me to try harder to overcome my disability. My mother has an Atterntion Deficit Disorder which has never been diagnosed and btherefore she denies. Because she is unable to recognize and come to terms with her own disability, she is an extremel defensive and controlling person. Her difficulty in acknowledging her own disability makes it difficult to accept and come to terms with mine. Her pride, arrogance and grandiosity just rub me the wrong way. I need to accept the way she is before I can forgive and have compassion. How would unattachment prevent me from abandoning her? Perhaps the answer is to be unattached to being devalued because of my disability. I find this difficult to do as I have had to live with it all my llife. Actually I find it worse then the disability itself. I deal with it by refocusinng on positive relationships and my theological study. By being involve in a progressive church, I've made a life for myself. In India, it sounds like you were unattached in terms of poccessions but not in terms of relationships---people did care for you. Marilyn Marilyn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soma Posted July 26, 2006 Share Posted July 26, 2006 What you wrote was seems to come from a point of witnessing. Witnessing is looking upon a broader horizon across all the experiences that are limited and unpleasant. With unattachment you see the dazzling light of a new dawn where everything is unified in a spiritual vision. It seems you sister was attached to her world and couldn't open up to help you. My parents dis-owned me and kicked me out of the house in High School. My brother and my country betrayed me so I too had resentment and anger. Thanks to unattachment I gave up the emotions and am now helping my parents in their old age and have relations with my brother. My emotions within and without resolved themselves in the simplicity of the whole experience, when I focused on simple unity and have become acquainted with the pure consciousness that is apparently outside and within ourselves. This consciousness is witnessed inside, when we know that reality is more than what is observed outside with the senses. Letting go of what is little, I entered into a larger concept of life where there is nothing to fear because I realized that conflict is the result of seeing only in part, not the whole picture. What happened to me left scares, but they have healed and are now scares of strength. I am glad all that happened because it sent me searching for my true home. When I lived as a monk I became closer to women than ever before because I was unattached to any relationship. Maybe, because I and the women were not threatened by each other we could become very close. I think unattachment can be interpreted in many ways, but I see it as a tool to witness and not be attached to the physical realm trying to control and manipulate things. It helps me to let it be and flow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mgf50 Posted July 29, 2006 Share Posted July 29, 2006 S>My parents dis-owned me and kicked me out of the house in High School. My brother and my country betrayed me so I too had resentment and anger. Thanks to unattachment I gave up the emotions and am now helping my parents in their old age and have relations with my brother. M>I admire the way you are able to help your parents when they treated you so badly. Did they ever appologize to you? How do they treat you now? It take tremendous maturity and acceptance to be present to them when they treated you likethe did. I admire your strength. SMy emotions within and without resolved themselves in the simplicity of the whole experience, when I focused on simple unity and have become acquainted with the pure consciousness that is apparently outside and within ourselves. This consciousness is witnessed inside, when we know that reality is more than what is observed outside with the senses. Letting go of what is little, I entered into a larger concept of life where there is nothing to fear because I realized that conflict is the result of seeing only in part, not the whole picture. M>I had a friend who was misdiagnosed and became paralyzed from the neck down. When she was properly diagnosed and given the right medication. she became able-bodied again. When I asked he if she was bitter about what happened to her she said oh no, I would have never realized how important it was to be inter-dependent. I think? this illustratres what you are saying. When we see our situation from a broader perspective we can see how are experience fits into the larger whole. S What happened to me left scares, but they have healed and are now scares of strength. I am glad all that happened because it sent me searching for my true home. M> You scars or wounds have become your strength. Harvey Cox. points out in "Fire from Heaven" how pain makes us search for a redefinition of the world. This is certainly true for me. My disabilty has led me to search intensely for spirtual answers that question traditional values and traditional Christianity which I believe I would have otherwise taken for granted. I don't yet know how to make use of the insights I've gained expept by sharing them with people like you on the internet. S>When I lived as a monk I became closer to women than ever before because I was unattached to any relationship. Maybe, because I and the women were not threatened by each other we could become very close. M>I was thinking yesturday how because of my disabiliy I demand more intensity in conversation and in relationships. I have no time for shallow chit chat. This led me to marry a man who is deeply spiritual. I can't say so much that I am unattached to my disability as much as struggling with it has made me look at life in a deeper way with more intensity. Having a good time in a consumer culture strikes me as a waste of time. I am very attached to struggling with issues of oppression, poverty and disconnecting relationships and finding what need is needed for transformation. I don't like what's happening in this world and spends my time tying to understand how it can be trransformed. S>I think unattachment can be interpreted in many ways, but I see it as a tool to witness and not be attached to the physical realm trying to control and manipulate things. It helps me to let it be and flow. I often see the importance of leting go but I confess letting go is very difficult. I have spent most of my life banging my head against the wall trying to overcome my disability. I usually let go by finding alternatives. One thing i have let go of is trying to work in this competetive culture after Ontario repealed the Employment Equity Act. I now put my energy into studying and writing on the internet. I only pray that this will enable me to make a contribution in some way. Marilyn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soma Posted July 29, 2006 Share Posted July 29, 2006 It is truely amazing the coping mechanism we humans have so we can enjoy the bliss of eternity while at the same time, suffering and struggling here on earth. It sounds like we are on the same plane trying to share the joy. My mother fell down and had a hip replacement. We took turns spending the night with her because we had to help her go to the bathroom ect. She couldn't do anything. She hit her head and went through some major changes. The meaness inside she fought for awhile holding on to it as independance, but as soon as she accepted her situation she became a beautiful child. She had good reasons for treating me the way she did, I will never understand them so I don't judge. I just enjoy the time we have now. I think I was accepted back when I got married in Korea and finally returned to the US, it was an excuse to just go on without appologies or excuses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mgf50 Posted September 6, 2006 Share Posted September 6, 2006 I have just finished reading the "Jesus puzzle" by Earl Doherty. Fascinating book. I talks about how Paul, who wrote his letters, before the Gospels were written. Rather then talk about a historical Jesus, Paul writes about the "Christ within". This resonates more with me. Doherty also writes that Paul does not come down to earth but descends to the lower part of heaven and wrestle and killed by "evil pricipalities'. I don't know quite what to make of this but I am intrigued. Certainly the mythological approach makes more sense then the hstorical approach. The Jesus Seminar claims that the "Q Gospel" or the common sayings of Matthew and Luke, are the authentic saying of Jesus. Doherty takes a different approach. He claims that these 'sayings' are taken from both the Jewish Literature, Song of Solomon etc. and from the Greek Wisdom literature. He says the Jewish Wisom Literature and the sayings of the Q Gospel both arose from the Greek Wisdom Literature about the same time. I am fascinated by this and I am in the process of studying the Hebrew Wisdom Literature. Marilyn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flowperson Posted September 7, 2006 Share Posted September 7, 2006 Hi Marilyn : We haven't met on the board before but I've seen your posts. You've started out with some good books. I suggest that you bring some balance to your list with The Gnostic Gospels by Elaine Pagels. Have fun. flow.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quaker Way Posted September 7, 2006 Share Posted September 7, 2006 There are many different avenues to God and, too, there are many different interpretations of the life and teachings of Jesus. I personally relate to Jesus the Teacher. I believe that Jesus was a mystic with a great gift of God consciousness that enabled him to 'see' a clear path of life for those who would be Citizens in the Kingdom of God. Unfortunately, Jesus the person has been blurred by Divine status bequethed by humans thereby making our acquaintence with Jesus, the person, very difficult. For those wanting to look into another side of the understanding of Jesus, I recommend reading Jesus Seminar material first-hand. Here's the website: http://virtualreligion.net/forum/index.html You will find writings by the members of the Seminar here at the Westar Institute website: http://westarinstitute.org/index.html The ideas and writings of the Jesus Seminar members immediately made sense to me. Once I began to seperate out Jesus the Myth from Jesus the Person, I understood clearly how Jesus takes on different images and meanings depending on how Jesus is presented. I also pay close attention to the emphasis made on the teachings of Jesus versus the myths and stories of Jesus. There is good reason for people and churches not to focus on Jesus' teachings...they would break down the walls of the churches and expose the hypocracy of what passes for Christianity today. My sister-in-law sent me a very revolting email designed to whip up anti-Hispanic sentiment (taking over our country, do we want to live in a nation where English is no longer the official language, etc. etc.). It's really the same Nazi propaganda formula applied to the anti-everything right wingers. Imagine for a moment your doorbell rings while you're shuffling around in the kitchen one Saturday morning having coffee. You open the door and there's your neighbor Jesus stopping in to return the string trimmer that he borrowed. You both sit down at the table sharing a fresh pot of coffee, start talking about the upcoming NFL season, and then you begin complaining about how the Hispanics and illegal immigrants are having such a negative impact on the American way of life. What do you think he would say? I use this scenario to check my own attitude toward people and life and the world. Maybe someday Jesus and I can get together and have coffee on a Saturday morning...betcha he knows a thing or two. Russ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mgf50 Posted September 25, 2006 Share Posted September 25, 2006 Yes I have not only read the "Gnostic Gospels" by Elaine Pagels but I have made extensive notes and copies quotations from her book. I hope to do the same with her book "Beyond Belief" which I have read. I really lke the Gnostic idea of The Christ within rather then as a Histrical person. I fascinated that Paul is considered by some to be a Gnostic. I also believe in the terachings of Jesus, whether this comes from a historical person or a Jewish adaptation of Greek wisdom literature. If you can imagine Jesus as your neighbour this is great for you. Even Mother Theresa talked about how we should see Jesus in the poor in those who suffer. I do think we radiate the Christ when we can suffer with Grace and when we can forgive those who cause our suffering. Usually those wh are oppressive are wounded themselves and do not have the Grace to work through there suffering. I want this, this is what I am searching for Christ in you, may he fill thy Spirit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.