who is this man?

[akay]

 

everyone that was alive when Jesus walked considered him a Prophet.

And the crowds were saying, “This is the prophet Jesus, from Nazareth in Galilee.” (Matthew 21:11)

The woman *said to Him, “Sir, I perceive that You are a prophet.(John 4:19)

When they sought to seize Him, they feared the people, because they considered Him to be a prophet. (Matthew 21:46)

So they *said to the blind man again, “What do you say about Him, since He opened your eyes?” And he said, “He is a prophet.” (John 9:17)
(interesting footnote, even those he gave vision to considered him a prophet)

And He said to them, “What things?” And they said to Him, “The things about Jesus the Nazarene, who was a prophet mighty in deed and word in the sight of God and all the people, (Luke 24:19)

 

Bible says that God is not man
‘God is not a man’ (Numbers 23:19)
‘For I am God, and not man’ (Hosea 11:9)

Jesus is called a man many times in the Bible
‘a man who has told you the truth’ (John 8:40)

‘Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know.’ (Acts 2:22)

‘He will judge the world in righteousness through a man whom He has appointed’ (Acts 17:31)

‘the man Christ Jesus’ (Tim. 2:5)
The Bible says that Jesus denied he is God
Jesus spoke to a man who had called him ‘good,’ asking him, ‘Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone.’ (Luke 18:19)

And he said to him, ‘Why are you asking me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.’ (Matthew 19:17)

Jesus did not teach people that he was God
If Jesus had been telling people that he was God, he would have complimented the man. Instead, Jesus rebuked him, denying he was good, that is, Jesus denied he was God.

The Bible says that God is greater than Jesus
‘My Father is greater than I’ (John 14:28)
‘My father is greater than all.’ (John 10:29)

Jesus can not be God if God is greater than him. The Christian belief that the Father and son are equal is in direct contrast to the clear words from Jesus.

Jesus never instructed his disciples to worship him
‘When you pray, say Our Father which art in heaven.’ (Luke 11:2)

‘In that day, you shall ask me nothing. Whatsoever you ask of the Father in my name.’ (John 16:23)
The hour cometh and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth; for the Father seeketh such to worship him.’ (John 4:23)

If Jesus was God, he would have sought worship for himself
Since he didn’t, instead he sought worship for God in the heavens, therefore, he was not God

 

 

 

[romansh]

3 hours ago, akay said:

If Jesus was God, he would have sought worship for himself

You think you know the mind of God? Hubris anyone?

[PaulS]

5 hours ago, akay said:

everyone that was alive when Jesus walked considered him a Prophet.

Well not quite - you seem to have ignored or deliberately left out the bible verses that actually contradict your statement:

Philippians 2:5-6 “You must have the same attitude that Christ Jesus had. Though he was God, he did not think of equality with God as something to cling to.”

John 10:30 “The Father and I are one.”

Matthew 1:23 “Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and they shall call his name Immanuel” (which means, God with us).

John 1:18 “No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.“

2 Peter 1:1 "Simeon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ".

John 10:33 “We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.“

Colossians 1:15 "He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation".

The list goes on and on.

I'm not saying I agree with what various biblical authors wrote, but many certainly did seem to believe that Jesus was indeed God, and not only a Prophet.

What do you say about these verses that contradict you? (Please, without any videos).

[akay]

1_

 The truth is that Jesus preached the same message that the Prophets in the Old Testament preached. There is a passage in the Bible which really emphasizes his core message. A man came to Jesus and asked “Which is the first commandment of all?”Jesus answered, “The first of all the commandments is Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one.’’[Mark 12:28-29]. So the greatest commandment, the most important belief according to Jesus is that God is one. If Jesus was God he would have said ‘I am God, worship me’, but he didn’t. He merely repeated a verse from the Old Testament confirming that God is One.

2_

Jesus did not say everything John said

Consider the following sayings of Jesus found in John's Gospel alone:

John 14:9: "Whoever has seen me has seen the Father."

John 10:33 “We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.“

John 1:18 “No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.“

John 10:30 “The Father and I are one.”

John 8:58: "Before Abraham was, I am."

John 10:7: "I am the door of the sheep."

John 11 :25: "I am the resurrection, and the life."

John 14:6: "I am the way, the truth, and the life."

John 15: 1 "I am the true vine."

Christian scholars tell us that if Jesus had made all these fantastic claims about himself, the first three gospels would surely have recorded them. Mark was written around 70 CE, followed by Matthew and Luke somewhere between 80-90 CE John, written around 100 CE, was the last of the four canonized gospels. The Christian scholar James Dunn writes in his book The Evidence for Jesus: "If they were part of the original words of Jesus himself, how could it be that only John picked them up and none of the others? Call it scholarly skepticism ifyou like, but I find it almost incredible that such sayings should have been neglected had they been known as a feature of Jesus'teaching. If the 'I am' had been part of the original tradition, it is very hard indeed to explain why none ofthe other three evangelists made use of them." (p. 3 6)

 Similarly, the New American Bible tells us in its introduction, under the heading How to Read Your Bible:

"It is difficult to know whether the words or sayings attributed to Jesus are written exactly as he spoke them....The Church was so firmly convinced that ... Jesus ... taught through her, that she expressed her teaching in the form of Jesus' sayings." (St. Joseph Medium Size Edition, p.23)

What we have in John, then is what people were saying about Jesus at the time John was written (about 70 years after Jesus was raised up). The writer of John simply expressed those ideas as if Jesus had said them. Rev.James Dunn says further in his book that, almost certainly,the writer of the fourth gospel "was not concerned with the sort of questions which trouble some Christians today Did Jesus actually say this? Did he use these precise words? and so on." (Fhe Evidence/or Jesus, p. 43)

Scholars have concluded that this gospel was originally written in a simple fonn. But this gospel was later on, as the New Jerusalem Bible says, "amplified and developed" in several stages during the second half of the first century." (p. 1742)

It says further: "It is today freely accepted that the fourth Gospel underwent a complex development before it reached its final form." (p. 1742)

On a previous page, the same Bible says: "It would seem that we have only the end-stage of a slow process that has brought together not only component parts of different ages, but also corrections, additions and sometimes even more than one revision of the same discourse." (p. 1739)

3_

Adam and Eve were the first humans, according to the Jewish, Islamic, and Christian religions, and all humans have descended from them. As stated in the Bible, Adam and Eve were created by God to take care of His creation, to populate the earth, and to have a relationship with Him

According to the Bible (Genesis 2:7), this is how humanity began: "The Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul." God then called the man Adam, and later created Eve from Adam's rib

4_

 BIBLE IS FULL OF CONFUSION BECAUSE PEOPLE HAVE CHANGED MANY THINGS IN IT, IMAGINE SOMEONE WITH RIGHT THINKING SAYING PEOPLE KILLED THEIR GOD, THEN WHO IS THE MOST POWERFUL ? PEOPLE OR GOD?

 the the image of  Jesus Christ. There is no image of any sort whatsoever because in those days there was no pics or of any kind image whether it be of man or any other beast.

Emmanuel is not the name of Christ

 

 

 

Edited April 18, 2022 by akay

[romansh]

1 hour ago, akay said:

Jesus did not say everything John said

Here I agree completely.

1 hour ago, akay said:

It is difficult to know whether the words or sayings attributed to Jesus are written exactly as he spoke them

A couple of things, firstly Jesus did not speak American English, he spoke likely Aramaic so no doubt if he indeed did say anything it likely was lost to some extent in translation and the mists of time.

1 hour ago, akay said:

Adam and Eve were the first humans

This is plainly incorrect and the Qur'an gets it wrong too.

1 hour ago, akay said:

John 10:30 “The Father and I are one.”

Funnily enough, I think this one the most important verses in the Bible even though Jesus likely does not say it. This line explains why Jesus was crucified (blasphemy) and if we think of God as the universe then this points to the unity of everything. 

1 hour ago, akay said:

BIBLE IS FULL OF CONFUSION

Here I agree again, though the reasons are not simple like you make out.

 

I am still wondering what does the Qur'an say about what the Sun is orbitting?

Edited April 18, 2022 by romansh

[romansh]

akay ... do you know what the word "discussion" means?

[PaulS]

13 hours ago, akay said:

The truth is that Jesus preached the same message that the Prophets in the Old Testament preached. 

I always think people run into difficulty when they try to tell me they 'know' what Jesus preached.

13 hours ago, akay said:

Jesus did not say everything John said

Yet you quote John when it suits your argument.  I think they call this Café Christianity.

13 hours ago, akay said:

Christian scholars tell us that if Jesus had made all these fantastic claims about himself, the first three gospels would surely have recorded them. 

My point is that there were people who thought of Jesus as God.  You said there weren't.  You are wrong according to the New Testament.

13 hours ago, akay said:

 Similarly, the New American Bible tells us in its introduction, under the heading How to Read Your Bible:

"It is difficult to know whether the words or sayings attributed to Jesus are written exactly as he spoke them....The Church was so firmly convinced that ... Jesus ... taught through her, that she expressed her teaching in the form of Jesus' sayings." (St. Joseph Medium Size Edition, p.23)

What we have in John, then is what people were saying about Jesus at the time John was written (about 70 years after Jesus was raised up). The writer of John simply expressed those ideas as if Jesus had said them. Rev.James Dunn says further in his book that, almost certainly,the writer of the fourth gospel "was not concerned with the sort of questions which trouble some Christians today Did Jesus actually say this? Did he use these precise words? and so on." (Fhe Evidence/or Jesus, p. 43)

I did also quote from Mathew, 2 Peter, Philippians and Colossians, to name just a few.  If you are going to use the New Testament to support your argument, you are going to run into trouble.

13 hours ago, akay said:

Adam and Eve were the first humans, according to the Jewish, Islamic, and Christian religions, and all humans have descended from them. As stated in the Bible, Adam and Eve were created by God to take care of His creation, to populate the earth, and to have a relationship with Him

According to the Bible (Genesis 2:7), this is how humanity began: "The Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul." God then called the man Adam, and later created Eve from Adam's rib.

I agree - but all those religions are mistaken.  I mean it's fair enough - they didn't know any better for their time and were just trying to explain the questions about life as best as they could - but science has demonstrated evolution beyond all doubt.  Homo sapiens did not simply 'appear' in their current form but rather they evolved over millions of years.  Modern humans have existed for some +150,000 years.  

[PaulS]

4 hours ago, romansh said:

akay ... do you know what the word "discussion" means?

It does seem a struggle for Akay and I have hidden his previous post and sent another warning.  Hopefully Akay can agree to participate as per the Guidelines and his word he gave when he signed up, but at this stage I'm not holding out much hope.

[akay]

There are a few authentic verses from the Bible that do not contradict the sayings of the ancient prophets,  and the words of the Prophet Jesus, and the words of the Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon them.
And we care about it

In fact, entire books of the Bible were forged.This doesn’t mean their content is necessarily wrong, but it certainly doesn’t mean it’s right. So which books were forged? Ephesians, Colossians, 2 Thessalonians, 1 and 2 Timothy, Titus, 1 and 2 Peter, and Jude—a whopping nine of the twenty-seven New Testament books and epistles—are to one degree or another suspect
Forged books? In the Bible?

Why are we not surprised? After all, even the gospel authors are unknown. In fact, they’re anonymous.

 Biblical scholars rarely, if ever, ascribe gospel authorship to Matthew, Mark, Luke, or John. As Ehrman tells us, “Most scholars today have abandoned these identifications, and recognize that the books were written by otherwise unknown but relatively well-educated Greek-speaking (and writing) Christians during the second half of the first century.”

 Graham Stanton affirms, “The gospels, unlike most Graeco-Roman writings, are anonymous. The familiar headings which give the name of an author (‘The Gospel according to …’) were not part of the original manuscripts, for they were added only early in the second century.”

[romansh]

I don't think anyone disagrees with the Bible being a work of man here. Most Christians don't take it literally. 

So then, how do we reconcile the Adam and Eve story. This is plainly false!

Incidentally Ehrman is a kafir so you can't trust him.

Edited April 19, 2022 by romansh

[PaulS]

8 hours ago, akay said:

In fact, entire books of the Bible were forged.This doesn’t mean their content is necessarily wrong, but it certainly doesn’t mean it’s right. So which books were forged? Ephesians, Colossians, 2 Thessalonians, 1 and 2 Timothy, Titus, 1 and 2 Peter, and Jude—a whopping nine of the twenty-seven New Testament books and epistles—are to one degree or another suspect
Forged books? In the Bible?

Yes, they're called "pseudepigraphs".

8 hours ago, akay said:

Why are we not surprised? After all, even the gospel authors are unknown. In fact, they’re anonymous.

I'm no sure why that is such a big deal - somebody thought what they thought and so they wrote it down.  I don't expect they thought it was ever going to be included in a man-made cannon of scripture.

8 hours ago, akay said:

 Biblical scholars rarely, if ever, ascribe gospel authorship to Matthew, Mark, Luke, or John. As Ehrman tells us, “Most scholars today have abandoned these identifications, and recognize that the books were written by otherwise unknown but relatively well-educated Greek-speaking (and writing) Christians during the second half of the first century.”

Yes, John as late as nearly 100CE.

8 hours ago, akay said:

 Graham Stanton affirms, “The gospels, unlike most Graeco-Roman writings, are anonymous. The familiar headings which give the name of an author (‘The Gospel according to …’) were not part of the original manuscripts, for they were added only early in the second century.”

Yes, later Church fathers' assigned authorship.  Maybe accurately, but who knows.

[akay]

Paul brought about in Christianity dangerous events, from monotheism to the Trinity, and said about the divinity of Christ, and the divinity of the Holy Spirit, and invented the story of redemption to atone for human mistakes,

and abolished the features that Jesus himself called for, such as circumcision and not eating meat. The pig, in a word, created a new religion

Christians follow Paul, not Christ, but Muslims follow the teachings of all the prophets, from Adam to Muhammad, peace be upon them

Jesus purified himself with washing prior to prayer, as was the practice of the pious prophets who preceded him (see Exodus 40:31-32 in reference to Moses and Aaron), and as is the practice of Muslims.

2. Jesus prayed in prostration (Matthew 26:39), like the other prophets (see Nehemiah 8:6 with regard to Ezra and the people, Joshua 5:14 for Joshua, Genesis 17:3 and 24:52 for Abraham, Exodus 34:8 and Numbers 20:6 for Moses and Aaron). Who prays like that, Christians or Muslims?

3. Jesus fasted for more than a month at a time (Matthew 4:2 and Luke 4:2), as did the pious before him (Exodus 34:28, I Kings 19:, and as do Muslims in the annual fast of the month of Ramadan.

4. Jesus made pilgrimage for the purpose of worship, as all Orthodox Jews aspire to do. The Muslim pilgrimage to Mecca is well known, and is alluded to in the Bible (see The First and Final Commandment).


5. Jesus taught the oneness of God (Mark 12:29-30, Matthew 22:37 and Luke 10:27), as conveyed in the first commandment (Exodus 20:3). Nowhere did he declare the Trinity.

6. Jesus declared himself a man and a prophet of God and nowhere claimed divinity or divine sonship. Which creed are the above points more consistent with—the Trinitarian formula or the absolute monotheism of Islam?

 

Islam is not just another religion. It is the same message preached by Moses, Jesus and Abraham. Islam literally means ‘submission to God’ and it teaches us to have a direct relationship with God. It reminds us that since God created us, no one should be worshipped except God alone. It also teaches that God is nothing like a human being or like anything that we can imagine. The concept of God is summarized in the Quran as:

 

“Say, He is God, the One. God, the Absolute. He does not give birth, nor was He born, and there is nothing like Him.” (Quran 112:1-4)[4]

God {the Father} as Christians call him
Christ is not God, but he is the Prophet of God, no more, no less

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XcQtBlOPEd0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5K7Lc9ZYCKA

[romansh]

Yes the Qur'an took much from the preceding Abrahamic texts ... no one is arguing about this. Even the Jesus bits.

The Qur'an makes some of the same mistakes as the Bible does. World made in six days, Adam and Eve, Noah's flood. If you are going to copy you may as well copy the bits that are right.

Edited April 20, 2022 by romansh

[akay]

WAS THE QUR'AN COPIED FROM THE BIBLE? - DR ZAKIR NAIK

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tpH9ISKdCug

Allah created earth in 6 days or 8 days By Dr Zakir Naik
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V3KNuOj8ems

Did Noah's flood cover the whole earth? Dr Zakir Naik
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XEJM5InCpdA

Why Did God Create Adam And Eve ? - Zakir Naik

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xCCFYjsM7gI

[romansh]

The Dead Sea Scrolls date back at least seven hundred years before Islam. So it is hard to imagine Islam was not influenced by the two prevailing monotheistic Abrahamic religions. 

What do you think akay? I literally don't care about Naik. He seems like a not very pleasant person. If I wanted to discuss it with him I would go to his website and discuss it there. I am discussing this with you, on this forum. If you don't have the education then simply say so. But I doubt you have a PhD in comparative religion, because you seem incapable in articulating what should be your expertise.

[PaulS]

 

9 hours ago, akay said:

Christians follow Paul, not Christ, but Muslims follow the teachings of all the prophets, from Adam to Muhammad, peace be upon them

Whilst I agree there is a 'Pauline Christianity', it is not true to say all Christians only follow Paul.  There is much scholarship and debate about these different types of Christianity represented in the New testament, and indeed the various early Christian groups in the 1st century.  Like Muslims who disagree on how to interpret the Quran, there are Christians who interpret the New Testament differently also.

9 hours ago, akay said:

Jesus prayed in prostration (Matthew 26:39), like the other prophets (see Nehemiah 8:6 with regard to Ezra and the people, Joshua 5:14 for Joshua, Genesis 17:3 and 24:52 for Abraham, Exodus 34:8 and Numbers 20:6 for Moses and Aaron). Who prays like that, Christians or Muslims?

It reads to me that Jesus was throwing himself on the ground in despair in this story (Matthew), not as an instruction on how to pray.  Jesus was actually asked how to pray according to Luke, yet failed to mention any requirement to do so in a prone position.  The fact that Muslims do so, means nothing really.  Oh and Jesus didn't use a mat but just the ground.  Why aren't Muslims true to Jesus in that regard?

9 hours ago, akay said:

Jesus fasted for more than a month at a time (Matthew 4:2 and Luke 4:2), as did the pious before him (Exodus 34:28, I Kings 19:, and as do Muslims in the annual fast of the month of Ramadan.

Yes fasting was a tradition that has carried over into Islam from Judaism.  It's also very trendy at the moment for losing weight and reducing diabetes!  But traditions change.  Some Christians still do fast, many do not.

9 hours ago, akay said:

Jesus made pilgrimage for the purpose of worship, as all Orthodox Jews aspire to do. The Muslim pilgrimage to Mecca is well known, and is alluded to in the Bible (see The First and Final Commandment).

I pilgrimage to Bali as much as I can.  Does that count?  They make the best Nasi Goreng!  

9 hours ago, akay said:

Jesus taught the oneness of God (Mark 12:29-30, Matthew 22:37 and Luke 10:27), as conveyed in the first commandment (Exodus 20:3). Nowhere did he declare the Trinity.

Again, it comes down to interpretation.  Yes the Trinity developed over time after Jesus, but those who developed it did so piecing together statements made by Jesus.  Things like when Jesus says he is God (which you say he doesn't) and statements like I & the Father are one, saying he is sending the Holy Spirit, etc.  So it's a bit disingenuous to rely on a single statement of Jesus not clarifying the issue.  I mean likewise Jesus never said "I have come to die as a sacrifice for you because God thinks you're all evil due to Adam & Eve sinning"...but surely you get the picture.

9 hours ago, akay said:

Jesus declared himself a man and a prophet of God and nowhere claimed divinity or divine sonship. Which creed are the above points more consistent with—the Trinitarian formula or the absolute monotheism of Islam?

Blatantly incorrect according to the New Testament, but you seem to be solidly fixed on the contrary.

9 hours ago, akay said:

Islam is not just another religion.

Well, it is really.  A passionate evangelist like you won't think so, but outside looking in - it is.  But each to their own - just cause no harm.

 

[akay]

 

 

, Paul wasn’t Jesus’ ‘second-in-command.’ In fact, they never even met, yet after he was gone, Paul claimed to speak in Jesus’ name, and the people in power took what he said and canonized it.  But that doesn’t make it true.  Every tenet of Trinitarian Christianity is based on the teachings of Paul, even though Jesus never said he was God, partner with God, or even God’s son.  Nowhere did Jesus teach the doctrines of the Trinity, Crucifixion, Resurrection and Atonement.  All of these tenets came from Paul, or from the Pauline theologians who followed in lockstep.  The teachings of Paul, in fact, contradict the teachings of Jesus, much in the same way that the New Testament informs us of Paul’s conflict with James, Peter and Barnabas.

    For example, Jesus taught Old Testament Law.  Paul negated it.  Jesus declared himself the ‘son of man.’ Eighty-eight times.  Pauline theologians labeled him the ‘son of God.’ Jesus taught the oneness of God, and prayer to him alone.  Paul suggested the Trinity and elevated Jesus

 

Nowhere in the scriptures can we deduce that the One God is an association of 3 Gods. On the contrary, the Catholic Creed clearly tells us that there is only one God: the Almighty Father, Creator of Heaven and Earth.
It is a heretical interpretation that was developed from the 3rd century that turned the One God into an association of three Gods...which is not in the scriptures. The Scriptures never refer to the Holy Spirit, the Angel of the Eternal, the Logos or the Son as being other Gods!

 

It doesn’t make sense that God sends countless Prophets like Noah, Abraham and Moses to tell people to believe in one God, and then suddenly sends a radically different message of the Trinity which contradicts his previous Prophets teachings. It is clear that the sect of Christianity who believed Jesus to be a human Prophet and nothing more, were following the true teachings of Jesus. This is because their concept of God is the same as that which was taught by the Prophets in the Old Testament.

 

 

The Deen Show: Did Jesus die for the sins of the world? ( 1 of 2 )
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUA2Ln4jsEM

The Deen Show: Did Jesus die for the sins of the world? ( 2of 2 )
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RpdrcQ55Zxw

The Deen Show: The Top 10 Reasons Why Jesus isn't God by Brother Joshua Evans
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z29jFDmkoEc

 

Forgery of the Dead Sea Scrolls

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z5wW5LW00p4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4elUM1bh7GE

[romansh]

3 hours ago, akay said:

It doesn’t make sense that God sends countless Prophets like Noah, Abraham and Moses to tell people to believe in one God, and then suddenly sends a radically different message of the Trinity which contradicts his previous Prophets teachings.

You won't find any argument from me here ... traditional Christianity does not make sense to me. Having said that traditional Islam equally makes little sense to me.

What is your evidence that all the Dead Sea Scrolls are forgeries?

[akay]

 

Forgery of the Dead Sea Scrolls

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z5wW5LW00p4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4elUM1bh7GE

[romansh]

OK I watched ...  what is your evidence that all the dead sea scrolls are forgeries. Neither of your videos say this!

[PaulS]

16 hours ago, akay said:

Paul wasn’t Jesus’ ‘second-in-command.’ In fact, they never even met,

Yep, pretty well known.

16 hours ago, akay said:

Pauline theologians labeled him the ‘son of God.’  

The authors of Matthew and Luke also allowed Jesus to be called Son of God.  They were not Pauline theologians.

16 hours ago, akay said:

Nowhere in the scriptures can we deduce that the One God is an association of 3 Gods. 

Wrong.  There are plenty of verses that deduce exactly that - I have already cited several.  Here's another:

Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. Matthew 28:19

I don't agree with them, but they still exist and you can't ignore them just for the sake of your argument.  The argument for a Trinity WAS deduced from NT texts.  People such as Clement of Rome, Ignatius of Antioch, Justin Martyr and many others refer back to the NT when making their case for the Trinity.

16 hours ago, akay said:

It doesn’t make sense that God sends countless Prophets like Noah, Abraham and Moses to tell people to believe in one God, and then suddenly sends a radically different message of the Trinity which contradicts his previous Prophets teachings. It is clear that the sect of Christianity who believed Jesus to be a human Prophet and nothing more, were following the true teachings of Jesus. This is because their concept of God is the same as that which was taught by the Prophets in the Old Testament.

It doesn't make sense to me that God would at anytime would want people killed because they don't follow certain religious rules, but hey, that's religion for you.

If you think it is clear that the sect of Christianity believed Jesus to be a human Prophet and nothing more, then what are your thoughts about why Paul, as a devout Jew, felt the need to persecute Christians? Surely if early Christians were following Jewish beliefs about Jesus, there would be no need for Paul to persecute them?

As for calling the Dead Sea Scrolls forgeries, are you maybe mistaking the 16 fragments at the Museum of the Bible which have been identified as forgeries, and not the 100,000+ genuine Dead Sea Scroll articles?  As Rom asks - what is your evidence that all the dead sea scrolls are forgeries?

[akay]

 

Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. Matthew 28:19

fake text

It does not exist in ancient Greek manuscripts before the sixteenth century
Therefore, this text has been omitted from most translations and recent editions in most languages of the world

 

Second: We find that all the apostles and disciples of Christ, including Peter, the beloved of Christ... and Paul, who claimed without evidence to be the messenger of Christ to the Gentiles... as well as the writers of the Gospel and their testimonies all... We find that all of them were not baptized in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
They were only baptizing in the name of Christ...

Did they violate the teachings of Christ or were they ignorant of them?

 

 

 

Paul is considered the first person to have corrupted the religion of the Nasaara. Between 51 and 55 CE, the first council of the disciples - the Jerusalem Council – was held and was headed by Ya‘qoob ibn Yoosuf An-Najjaar, who was stoned to death in 62 CE. During this meeting they decided that in order to obtain a greater benefit they should exempt all non-Jews from being committed to the Sharee'ah of the Tawraah (Torah). They did so as this was the only way to convert them from worshipping idols, as a preliminary step, before compelling them to follow the Sharee'ah of the Tawraah. Furthermore, they approved of the prohibition of adultery, eating animals killed by strangling, blood and that which is sacrificed for idols. However, they permitted the consumption of alcoholic drinks, the flesh of swine and usury although these things are forbidden in the Tawraah.

Later on, Paul returned to Antioch in the company of Barnabas.  They stayed together for a relatively long period of time then parted after they had a disagreement about Paul’s declaration of nullifying the rulings of the Tawraah and his claim that these rulings were a curse that were now discarded forever.

He claimed that ‘Eesa may Allaah exalt his mention was sent to replace the Old Testament with another one, and that he adopted of incarnation by way of the word or the son of God or the Holy Spirit. Based on this idea, he initiated the creed of the crucifixion, salvation, the resurrection of ‘Eesa may Allaah exalt his mention and his ascension to heaven in order to sit on the right of the Lord so as to make Judgment.

Likewise, Paul did the same with Peter who attacked him and departed from him and all this provoked the people against him. Therefore, Paul wrote the epistle to the Galatians explaining his creed and principles. Then, he continued his missionary trips in the company of his disciples to Europe and Asia Minor until he finally died in Rome in 65 CE during the reign of Nero.   

Throughout the first three centuries of Christianity, there was strong resistance against Paul's beliefs. During the second century CE Hippolytus of Rome, Vitus and Origen denied that Paul was an apostle. During the third century, Paul of Samosata appeared and was followed by the Paulicians but they only had a limited effect. Thus, began the abandonment of the Sharee'ah of the Tawraah and the spread of paganism and the concept of the Trinity in Christianity.   

 

If Jesus said God is One, why does the trinity exist? - Q&A - Yusha Evans

 

 

 

 

God sends prophets to people so that they worship the one God, not three
  And so that people follow the true religion, the religion of all the prophets
   And God does not want to kill people, but people destroy themselves by following misguidance and worshiping humans and idols and others

We find in the Bible

 

 

27 But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them—bring them here and kill them in front of me.’”Luke 19:27

 the Bible says to kill the disbeliever, with your hand, even if it be your own flesh and blood.

6) “If your brother, your mother’s son, or your son or daughter, or the wife you cherish, or your friend who is like your own soul, entices you secretly, saying, ‘Let’s go and serve other gods’ (whom neither you nor your fathers have known,
7) of the gods of the peoples who are around you, near you, or far from you, from one end of the earth to the other end),
😎 you shall not consent to him or listen to him; and your eye shall not pity him, nor shall you spare or conceal him.
9) Instead, you shall most certainly kill him; your hand shall be first against him to put him to death, and afterward the hand of all the people. (Deuteronomy 13: 6-9)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0cLScXFHKpg

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iH9vnEGuJ5c

 

 

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The Dead Sea scrolls were mostly Jewish writings some of which were versions of the books that made it into the canonised Bible. That tells us exactly nothing about the veracity of what is in those writings however.

 none of the Qumran Scrolls (i.e., the Dead Sea Scrolls) was New Testament material.  They represent all of the Old Testament books except Esther, but to date, nothing has been found that’s provably New Testament.

If anything, the Dead Sea Scrolls prove that the Bible as a collection of writings has been shaped by humans all along on a selective basis. There were winners and losers in the books chosen, and among the early Christian sects which succeeded or became close to forgotten by history. This selection and division was repeated several times at later points in the history and politics of the Latin and Orthodox Christian churches.

. Most of the books found at Qumran were just copies of existing Biblical books and those that were not largely represent the views and teachings of a specific Jewish sect.

The writings of a particular sect offer an interesting perspective but are no more objectively “true” than any other book.

The Qumran scrolls shock Christians and prove the distortion of the Bible
The majority of Christians cannot search for  in the Dead Sea Scrolls) because they do not know the Hebrew language, so some priests exploit this weakness in order to deceive and mislead Christians by claiming that the Qumran scrolls prove the authenticity of the Bible, but anyone who studies the texts of the manuscripts will clearly see that the Qumran scrolls prove distortion of the bible,

Q&A: Muslim View of Dead Sea Scrolls - Dr. Shabir Ally

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fjORXEgWzUg

 

 

 

 

Edited April 22, 2022 by akay

[PaulS]

18 hours ago, akay said:

Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. Matthew 28:19

fake text

It does not exist in ancient Greek manuscripts before the sixteenth century

Wrong.  You will find this verse in all early manuscripts such as Codex Sinaiticus (4th century), the Codex Vaticanus (4th century), the Codex Alexandrinus (5th century) and the Codex Bezae (5th century). 

Matthew 28:19 directly from the 4th century Codex Sinaiticus: 

γηϲ · πορευθεντεϲ 

μαθητευϲατε πα

τα τα εθνη βαπτι

ζοντεϲ αυτουϲ · 

ειϲ το ονομα του 

πρϲ και του ϋϊου 

και του αγιου πνϲ ˙ 

Translated it says "Go, make disciples of all nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.  

Reference: https://www.codexsinaiticus.org/en/manuscript.aspx?book=33&chapter=28&lid=en&side=r&verse=19&zoomSlider=0

Where do you get your sources from?  

18 hours ago, akay said:

They were only baptizing in the name of Christ...

Did they violate the teachings of Christ or were they ignorant of them?

The teachings of Christ?  Please demonstrate what in the NT is attributed to Jesus as his instructions concerning baptism, or do you have teachings of Jesus concerning how to baptise that weren't included in the NT?

18 hours ago, akay said:

Paul is considered the first person to have corrupted the religion of the Nasaara. Between 51 and 55 CE, the first council of the disciples - the Jerusalem Council – was held and was headed by Ya‘qoob ibn Yoosuf An-Najjaar, who was stoned to death in 62 CE. During this meeting they decided that in order to obtain a greater benefit they should exempt all non-Jews from being committed to the Sharee'ah of the Tawraah (Torah). They did so as this was the only way to convert them from worshipping idols, as a preliminary step, before compelling them to follow the Sharee'ah of the Tawraah. Furthermore, they approved of the prohibition of adultery, eating animals killed by strangling, blood and that which is sacrificed for idols. However, they permitted the consumption of alcoholic drinks, the flesh of swine and usury although these things are forbidden in the Tawraah.

Now I see where you get your source information from.  This above paragraph and your next several are entirely plagiarized from IslamWeb.net here: https://www.islamweb.net/en/fatwa/27986/the-effect-of-paul-on-christianity-and-differences-between-christian-sects

The reality is, the New Testament is the only source we have for what was decided at the Jerusalem Council (accurately transcribed or not), and nowhere does it refer to Paul 'corrupting' Christianity.  The Council 'agreed' on these rules (although IslamWeb.net has taken some poetic license in imagining what rules were agreed on), including representatives who were disciples of Jesus when he was alive (and Jesus' brother).  Don't rely on Muslim propaganda.  Maybe deal with legitimate New Testament scholars.  I thought you would have understood this from allegedly having a PhD in Comparative Religion!

18 hours ago, akay said:

The Dead Sea scrolls were mostly Jewish writings some of which were versions of the books that made it into the canonised Bible. That tells us exactly nothing about the veracity of what is in those writings however.

You previously seemed to claim the Dead Sea Scrolls were forgeries.  Are they now not forgeries for the sake of your argument?  Or are you still saying they're forgeries simply because you think they can't be verified against the originals?  You still haven't answered what evidence you have to support that the DSS's are forgeries, or is that argument not evidenced on IslamWeb?

Regarding cut & paste:

Akay, when I mentioned to you before that cutting and pasting swathes of material was not conducive to good discussion here, you replied with the following:

"This is not cutting and pasting, this is the words of Islam and my personal words
And as I said, I'm not talking to you alone, there are people who love links

The discussion must have conditions and you are not qualified to discuss because you have not studied Islam or anything else.

And you only say about me
cut and paste
akay did not answer

You have become a mockery of your lies and ignorance about me and Islam
People laugh at you".

But moving forward, in future if you post material that you have taken from other websites, please attribute it accordingly and make it clear that these are not your actual words.  Referencing is a pretty standard academic protocol, although plagiarizing is probably pretty common too.  Please also be reminded that the Forum Guidelines, that you agreed to when you signed up as a member here, state "You agree not to post any copyrighted material unless the copyright is owned by you or by this bulletin board".  IslamWeb.net is a copyright website 2022 with all rights reserved.  Please ensure you do not infringe copyright when posting here.  Thankyou in advance.

[akay]

I am basically a member of Islamweb

I have many articles

And you did not study Islam and do not know much about the Bible

(SITE ADMIN NOTE - COPYRIGHT PORTIONS OF THIS POST HAVE BEEN REMOVED.  Member has been warned to cite references to other sites when using material listed on these other sites).

New Testament

 Jesus did not write the bible that was revealed by God. Not even was it written immediately after his departure. He did not order or desire at any time in his life to write anything on his behalf. Therefore, the Bible which is in circulation today is not a representation of Jesus' teachings.

Out of the total of 27 Books of the New Testament, more than half is authored by Paul. As opposed to Paul, the Master has not written a single word of the twenty-seven books. If you can lay your hands on what is called "'A Red Letter Bible," you will find every word alleged to have been uttered by Jesus - in red ink and the rest in normal black ink. Don't be shocked to find that in this so called Gospel of Jesus, over ninety percent of the 27 Books of the New Testament is printed in black ink!

note
When I talked about the Dead Sea Scrolls, I mentioned the video that talks about

5 Dead Sea scroll fragments found to be forged

And certainly the Jews distorted their books, so do we believe their book and their words after trying to kill the Prophet Jesus and Muhammad, peace be upon them?

 

 

[romansh]

5 hours ago, akay said:

And certainly the Jews distorted their books, so do we believe their book and their words after trying to kill the Prophet Jesus and Muhammad, peace be upon them?

Do we we believe Islam after scribes reportedly took dictation from another alleged prophet?

Can you point to the verse in the Qur'an that tells what the sun is orbitting and what you think it means and the reasons why? Can you tell us whether you think all the scrolls are forgeries?