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Brokeback Mountain


Jack Twist
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I am wondering what discussion might ensue on \(1) Anne Prolux's short story (first published in the New Yorker in 1997, now avalable in a novellette or in the collected Wyoming Stories) and the Ang Lee movie - what comments would be as Christians, in the Church, in response to these works

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What do you mean? Like you mean if United Church of Christ would backed this movie because they did that ad welcoming the gay community?

No, not at all.

 

That is my personal statement in my sig.

 

I don't expect the UCC to be financing any Hollywood movie.

 

I am asking a lot of things. One of them is a lot of folks say they are against discrimiunation against gays and lesbians and are yet very uncomfortable in the presence of two gay folks ho,love each other. Is it all a mental thing, or are people, especially incldung people ehre whoi proclaim themselves progressives, able to accept that, say, two men can kiss and yet eb fear of violence against them ebcause they do so.

 

Have you read the book, seen the movie?

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Speaking from my own experience as a gay male and UCC member I can say that Progressive Christians can, and often do, "walk their talk" when it comes to this issue of accepting and welcoming diversity in their communities. The church I attend has been "open and affirming" for about 12 years and has openly gay, lesbian, and transgender members. It is sometimes difficult to put this experience into words, but I will offer a few observations.

 

First, I initially selected this church because of it's "OA" status. Any doubts I had were dispelled within minutes of walking into my first worship service and I became an active member four weeks later. Second, in this particular congregation, my status as a gay person has never made me self-conscious of my so-called status as a minority. The feeling of openess is almost as natural as breathing. Of course, experiences vary from congregation to congregation and all that I am saying here is that Progressive Christians certainly have the potential and the will to make the celebration of diversity a concrete reality.

 

As to the movie ... it's a remarkable artistic achievement that transcends the "gay issue" ... well, that's my opinion anyway.

 

minsocal :D

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Messers JTEDM

 

You may or may not be aware that the UCC fully affirmed its support of all lifestyles and genders at its national meeting last year. Although I am not currently affiliated with the UCC, I was for most of my life, and I can assure you both that most of the UCC churches that I attended and have been a member of have followed this policy and practice for many decades prior to the official declaration.

 

Of course there are congregations of a more conservative bent, such as the covenant congregations which adhere to policies passed down from the Congregational Churches of the past before they became UCC. I do not know what has transpired since the national policy declaration by the UCC, but I haven't heard of any schism movements as a result of the decision last year. The Episcopal Churchs' situation, however, seems to be another matter worldwide.

Can anyone else speak knowledgeably about the situation? All I know about this is what I read in the news.

 

flow.... :)

Edited by flowperson
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I apologise for my bad typing in prior posts and it is too bad there is no edit function to edit one's own posts to correct such typos, even though Invision chat software offers such a feature at no charge

 

I am not trying to hit up the UCC to which I belong although (and hence the logo in my sig) I do not feel that the local or national scene is so glowing - there are local churches leaving the UCC around here because of the stance of gay marriage, and there are only a handful of local congregations in our association where I think anyone gay would be comfortable

 

I am reflecting that it is philosophically ok to be gay in some people's minds, those people yet prhaps very uncomfortable with it all - at a recent O&A meeting in my congregation on eo fht most affirming of straight folks mentioned his uncomfortableness with two men kissing and the way he said it, he was really uncomfortable -

 

in 2004 we saw anti gay measures passed in every state where it was on the ballot, and by healthy majorities - who voted for that - call it "pro family" and "defense of marriage" and that is not even the issue, the issue was a chance to attack gays and look how well it did - where was the church? where were progressive Christians? notably silent

 

and hence my question

 

by the way, I am one person - couldn't decide to use Jack's name or Ennis' name so I used both

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Hi,

 

I am also in an OA UCC church. My understanding is that it was a BIG issue at the time (I am in a fairly conservative state-- on some things anyway-- kind of a purple state I guess). The general buzz is that members did leave over the OA thing. But those who did stay are very strongly for it. A few of the strongest members are parents of gay or lesbian kids.

 

Many of the new members either came in because they were gay or lesbian or because of the strong stance of the church towards diversity (that would be me) made by the ad. (There were also some ads that the local churches put together and a sign on the front for awhile that said "Everyone welcome. And we mean it!). The pastor is also openly gay. To my knowledge no one left after the pastor was called here. This is just a great group of folks-- very welcoming to everybody. I have heard zero issues over it now, as I think the people that would leave have already left. (Funny thing, but we have a very large group of elderly that have had no issue with it either. In fact, talked to the pastor once about this, and he said some of these folks have been around in various social justice issues for 50 years maybe.

 

There is a conservative element in UCC. THere is a website something like "biblical witness", which are UCC conservatives who want to "take the church back". (Why don't they go back Southern Baptist?) I don't think there is much chance they would split the church, but since the church is a group of three separate demoninations I guess someone can keep their identity-- more on that). But anyway that's a small no. I think. The other is that there are Congregational and others that never went into UCC, but I am not sure that was always about the gay issue. There are just churches that wanted to be MORE congregational than even UCC is. I think this is common in the east coast. It just isn't related to that issue. They are just really happy to stay Congregationalists. (I'm sure there is the other too.)

 

I am uncomfortable with public displays of affection beyond say hugging or kissing on the cheek by either gays or straights. I think you could poll any no. of people and find that would be the case. I think people should do the kissing and so on in private. It doesn't have anythign to do with being straight or gay. Of course I teach in HS so I do see enough of the kissing and so on by straights! One time I went to a MCC church and there was a very high amt of caressing-- that seemed inapprop. at a church or even in public-- maybe due to feeling happy they *could* be open about it. But you don't see that sort of thing in UCC. The pastor told me once-- MCC is very gay. Funny comment coming from him. :-)

 

I don't know-- our church community (and some other churches-- NM interfaith I think) was pretty active against the anti-gay legislation. It was not on the ballot in NM. I am guessing it would not have gotten on the ballot either. Of course, you know the point of it was to get people out to vote for GWB. SInce the election everything has been pretty quiet. I'm guessing there is zero drive for a constitutional amendment and it would have zero chance of passing (some people just do not want to amend the constitution over what they would consider a frivial matter). BTW, I think the whole thing was very shameful and the idea that straight marriage is somehow threatened-- I thought straight people were doing an excellent job of threatening marriage all by themselves thank you very much. :-)

 

Hey welcome! And yes you can edit. Just do it fast. :-)

 

--des

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I haven't seen this movie yet-I don't think it will play in our small conservative town and my friends are not likely to want to drive to Atlanta (nearest major city) to see it. I heard good things about it, though, and it looks like it is a nice love story with the 'gay thing' being secondary.

 

Besides, both guys are hot:)

Edited by Beautiful_Dreamer
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I am not trying to hit up the UCC to which I belong although (and hence the logo in my sig) I do not feel that the local or national scene is so glowing - there are local churches leaving the UCC around here because of the stance of gay marriage, and there are only a handful of local congregations in our association where I think anyone gay would be comfortable

 

The good news is that there are also churches switching to UCC because of their gay stance. Some AMEs are changing as well as United Methodist. I believe there is a Southern Baptist which is also switching. Those are just specific ones I've been told about.

 

I am reflecting that it is philosophically ok to be gay in some people's minds, those people yet prhaps very uncomfortable with it all - at a recent O&A meeting in my congregation on eo fht most affirming of straight folks mentioned his uncomfortableness with two men kissing and the way he said it, he was really uncomfortable -

 

Yeah, it is sad. I like to be affectionate with my husband (hand holding or having his arm around me, etc.) and I feel sad when I see to people who are gay who don't feel comfortable doing similar things in public. Although I do think it is quickly changing. I see young adults and teens being more affectionate with each other and their peers are more comfortable with it. I'm looking forward to the day when read alounds and textbooks recognize that their are gay families and the books I teach out of in schools picture them and talk about them. I'm not very patient with society right now.

 

 

in 2004 we saw anti gay measures passed in every state where it was on the ballot, and by healthy majorities - who voted for that - call it "pro family" and "defense of marriage" and that is not even the issue, the issue was a chance to attack gays and look how well it did - where was the church?  where were progressive Christians?  notably silent

 

Good question. I only started going to church again at the end of 2004. I know individuals were speaking out against it. And the politians (some of whom have had affairs and subsequently have been married multiple times) were the people who marriage needed to be defended against! So far no one I've discussed it with has been able to give a good (non-religious) reason for why gay people shouldn't be allowed to get married. They have no reasons. None will say actually say that they would divorce their husband or wife because two gay people got married! In fact, statistics show the opposite. In countries where gay people have the right to marry the divorce rate for straight people went down! I think that came from Sweden. I'll have to go back and see if I can find the article again.

 

 

As far as your original question goes, my understanding is that they recongize it as a well done (acting, cinemotography, etc.) movie but of course disagree with the "gay thing." I haven't seen anything about the book.

 

I haven't seen it yet but will. I might check out the book, too!

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and in the UCC Association that I belong to, overheard at a recent meeting of the Church and Ministry Committee, "we already have four of them."

 

 

I feel your frustration. When I get extrememly frustrated I focus on how recently women gained the right to vote, how recently the First (?) Civil Rights movement happened. In the end, the right to marry, be openly affectionate, etc. will be gained.

 

I have the advantage of going to a church where the pastor participated in sit ins, boycotts, etc. I take courage from seeing someone who, in the light of history, isn't *that* much older than me and how much change he has seen in his life time. I know we will see the same. Some day we will be the ones telling the young people about the fight for the Civil Rights for the GLBT community!

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Speaking from my own experience as a gay male and UCC member I can say that Progressive Christians can, and often do, "walk their talk" when it comes to this issue of accepting and welcoming diversity in their communities. The church I attend has been "open and affirming" for about 12 years and has openly gay, lesbian, and transgender members. It is sometimes difficult to put this experience into words, but I will offer a few observations.

 

First, I initially selected this church because of it's "OA" status. Any doubts I had were dispelled within minutes of walking into my first worship service and I became an active member four weeks later. Second, in this particular congregation, my status as a gay person has never made me self-conscious of my so-called status as a minority. The feeling of openess is almost as natural as breathing. Of course, experiences vary from congregation to congregation and all that I am saying here is that Progressive Christians certainly have the potential and the will to make the celebration of diversity a concrete reality.

 

As to the movie ... it's a remarkable artistic achievement that transcends the "gay issue" ... well, that's my opinion anyway.

 

minsocal  :D

 

 

Minsocal.....I like your statement "The feeling of openess is almost as natural as breathing" Oh God...let it be so!

My oldest daughter is gay, and has had a commited relationship with her partner for 25 years,so you can understand my fervent prayer that acceptance of gays and lesbians should come sooner rather than later.

 

 

Blessings to you,

 

Jerry

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now has anyone seen the movie other than me (5 times as of tonight) or ready Annie Proulx's short story (about 50 times for me as of yesterday, but then I started in 1997)?

 

Not yet. I do not generally see movies in theaters, maybe 2x a year. Will I enjoy the movie as much if I read the book first?

 

 

see the movie.

 

 

read the story.

 

 

they both are brilliant and don't worry about anything but missing the movie on the large screen in a threatre with other people and reading the story by yourself - in any order, but do it soon.

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now has anyone seen the movie other than me (5 times as of tonight) or ready Annie Proulx's short story (about 50 times for me as of yesterday, but then I started in 1997)?

 

Not yet. I do not generally see movies in theaters, maybe 2x a year. Will I enjoy the movie as much if I read the book first?

 

 

see the movie.

 

 

read the story.

 

 

they both are brilliant and don't worry about anything but missing the movie on the large screen in a threatre with other people and reading the story by yourself - in any order, but do it soon.

 

 

okay, I'll finish Dragonwings and then find Brokeback. Thanks!

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