Troubling viewpoint in conservativesas

[Beanieboy]

I have been listening to Mike Winger because I think it is good to listen to the other side, even if to understand where they are coming from. 

Mike is a conservative evangelical Christian, and he was talking with a woman who is on often who teaches at a Christian School. She was teaching the difference between subjective truth or opinion, and objective truth. 

She said that we ssy, "Speak your truth," but asked if there was only one truth. From there, there is a path that Jesus is the Truth, the Life, and the Way, The Bible is an inerrant word of God dictated to mankind. When one has a question, they look to the Word (the Bible), see what it says, and thus their interpretation is God's commandment, the opinion is God's mind. And, who are we to listen? God, and no one else, So, in a debate or discussion, anyone not agreeing with their position isn't in disagreement with them, but with God. 

It explained a lot, because anyone in disagreement with the conservative position is wrong, and in disobedience. The discussion you are having with the street preacher isn't a discussion. The see themselves as right, speaking for God, and setting you straight. 

Where is gets really troubling for me is when they were both saying a person should not: 

Question or use their own critical judgement

Not trust their feelings

Not trust their heart, because it is deceitful. 

I'm sure they quoted verses for each, but they are saying not to use your heart, soul, and mind. Just obey the bible, because that is the will of God. 
 

Maybe it's an issue of semantics. When I talk about listening to my heart, I mean my conscience, the HS inside me. You know when you say things out of anger? My head will justify it, say he deserved it, but my heart will gently say, "you know that was wrong, what you just said." And it will weigh heart. I will feel remorse and guilt until I resolve it. 

They mentioned "the answers are within you - just go within" and how the heart is deceitful, so one should never go within. My brother-in-law, a missionary, said the same thing to me, in a discussion about "New Age" thought. I explained that when I pray and speak to God, I go within. He echoed that his heart is all evil and darkness. The only good within him is Jesus. I said that Jesus lives in my heart, "this little light of mine, and so, it isn't evil or dark. I was made in God's image, so my soul is divine, it's perfect. Yes, I may make mistakes (sin), but my focus is on actively loving my neighbor. 

In a discussion between a conservative and a progressive, the conservative again said he is all evil, his heart is evil, and the only good in him is because of Christ. 
 

This troubles me for two reasons:

The first is that if the only good in you is Christ, those who do not have Christ are then seen as evil, I remember a street preacher on the streets of Toronto saying "look at all these demons out tonight." Demons? 

This is what I was taught - that God sees us as sinners, and Jesus puts rose colored glasses on the Father, which cancels out our sin. 

So, one time in prayer, God showed me that while I loved him, he had been holding his arms out in love, but because I was raised that we are all sinners, had so much shame and self loathing, that I had never accepted his love, because I believed I wasn't worthy. 
And he was saying l, I love you. I died for you. Please believe me! Please accept my love. That's all you have to do. 

And it moved me to love my neighbor without asking anything in return as a way to thank God. 

Buddhism has a saying: Of someone says he is seeking the truth, listen. If he says he has found it, run away. 

Such a person will believe they possess the truth, so will refuse to listen to anyone else. Rather than present your understanding, listen to another's, then see if your understanding needs to be adjusted, theirs is fixed. 

Buddhism also says the truth is i destructible. It can be questioned, tested,  put in washer and dryer and come out the same. 

Conservative Christianity, then, needs to prevent you from questioning the Church's view, which is God's view. in their opinion, because like Segregation, Slavery, or women not treated as equals to men, and using Scripture to declare it God's Will, the person may come to the conclusion that the church is wrong. Preventing one from trusting their heart, their intuition, their feelings, makes them negate God writing the law on our hearts. It makes them follow their leader and their translation blindly, believing they are following God's will, but not following the Holy Spirit. 

 

Comments? 

 

[PaulS]

On 9/5/2021 at 10:02 AM, Beanieboy said:

Just obey the bible, because that is the will of God. 

Personally I don't think there is any 'just' when it comes to 'obeying' the bible.  We see through countless denominations and versions of Christianity, that the bible is anything but close to being clear when it comes to understanding and interpretation.  What I think these people actually mean is that others should understand God's will the way 'they' understand God's will.

On 9/5/2021 at 10:02 AM, Beanieboy said:

They mentioned "the answers are within you - just go within" and how the heart is deceitful, so one should never go within. My brother-in-law, a missionary, said the same thing to me, in a discussion about "New Age" thought. I explained that when I pray and speak to God, I go within. He echoed that his heart is all evil and darkness. The only good within him is Jesus. I said that Jesus lives in my heart, "this little light of mine, and so, it isn't evil or dark. I was made in God's image, so my soul is divine, it's perfect. Yes, I may make mistakes (sin), but my focus is on actively loving my neighbor. 

For me I think that Christianity (the religion) has relied on painting a dark picture of humanity, when in fact I don't think Jesus' message was anywhere near this.  To em it seems that Jesus was always trying to see the good in people, not the bad.  He was trying to convince them that God was there with them at that very moment.  A god example was how he railed against Church leaders who told others they were the only ones who could be the intermediary with God.

On 9/5/2021 at 10:02 AM, Beanieboy said:

In a discussion between a conservative and a progressive, the conservative again said he is all evil, his heart is evil, and the only good in him is because of Christ. 
This troubles me for two reasons:

The first is that if the only good in you is Christ, those who do not have Christ are then seen as evil, I remember a street preacher on the streets of Toronto saying "look at all these demons out tonight." Demons? 

This is what I was taught - that God sees us as sinners, and Jesus puts rose colored glasses on the Father, which cancels out our sin. 

So, one time in prayer, God showed me that while I loved him, he had been holding his arms out in love, but because I was raised that we are all sinners, had so much shame and self loathing, that I had never accepted his love, because I believed I wasn't worthy. 
And he was saying l, I love you. I died for you. Please believe me! Please accept my love. That's all you have to do. 

And it moved me to love my neighbor without asking anything in return as a way to thank God. 

I just look at it this way - would Jesus prefer everyone going around condemning everyone else as evil, as a 'demon', or would he prefer people who demonstrated love and kindness to everyone.  I suspect the latter.

On 9/5/2021 at 10:02 AM, Beanieboy said:

Buddhism has a saying: Of someone says he is seeking the truth, listen. If he says he has found it, run away. 

Very wise.

On 9/5/2021 at 10:02 AM, Beanieboy said:

Conservative Christianity, then, needs to prevent you from questioning the Church's view, which is God's view. in their opinion, because like Segregation, Slavery, or women not treated as equals to men, and using Scripture to declare it God's Will, the person may come to the conclusion that the church is wrong. Preventing one from trusting their heart, their intuition, their feelings, makes them negate God writing the law on our hearts. It makes them follow their leader and their translation blindly, believing they are following God's will, but not following the Holy Spirit. 

It reminds me of preachers saying one has to have 'faith' when one starts to doubt and question what they have been told is the truth.  In those cases faith is used as an excuse, as a defense to probing and seeking a better understanding.  It's much easier to fit into a club if you just go along with what the rest of the club is comfortable with.  Thankfully, Progressive Christianity has many brave people who have challenged this status quo and so we see Christianity moving in new directions.  Conservatives will struggle with the change, but it is inevitable.  The world has moved on.

[Beanieboy]

👍

[romansh]

As a devout agnostic I can't help but assume there is a truth, but I also can't help but understand I don't have complete access to that truth. 

Overtime any truth I think I may have found will likely be need of revision.

As to the Bible ... it's a lot of words for try and be nice to one and another.

Is that a truth? Perhaps.

On 9/4/2021 at 7:02 PM, Beanieboy said:

Of someone says he is seeking the truth, listen. If he says he has found it, run away. 

 Or more prosaically, “If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him.”

I like Joseph Campbell's take when talking to Myers. Myers says something like "Buddha shows you the way", and Campbell interrupts and says, "But its got to be your way".

Edited September 10, 2021 by romansh

[PaulS]

On 9/11/2021 at 4:06 AM, romansh said:

As to the Bible ... it's a lot of words for try and be nice to one and another.

To be fair, there are also a lot of words around how to kill others, what not to do, and what to do with adulterous wives!

Oh, and how God's not going to be nice to you if you don't obey what they say God wants.