Once Saved...

[AletheiaRivers]

I have faith that whatever my ultimate state of being is, it will be more real than my earthly identity, not less -- though much of what I take to be so important about myself will no doubt be wiped away.

 

This sums up my hopes and beliefs quite well.

 

I suspect -- though Alethia might shout Monist!

 

Monist! Monist!

Edited August 12, 2005 by AletheiaRivers

[FredP]

But I don't actually believe that any of us can "choose" to die to self; we can only desire to die to self or not, and since it can be argued that we are not the author of our desires...this suggests that God initiates throughout the process of salvation according to His Plan. In other words, God is the Initiator of every stage of His Plan of Salvation.

I do think you're right about this; and yet, in some mysterious paradoxical way, it is just as true that we are completely and utterly responsible for our choices. One of the most troubling texts in the Bible concerning destiny and free will comes from Matthew 26:24: "The Son of Man goes as it is written of him, but woe to that one by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been better for that one not to have been born." That's frightening! The betrayer is destined to do "as it is written," but he'll be punished for it?!

 

Awhile back, in the Fundamental Theology and Matrix threads, I suggested this problem might have a very succinct, if bizarre, solution, summed up neatly in a statement the Oracle made to Neo in Reloaded: "You've already made your choice, now you've got to understand it."

 

Also my post from the FT thread:

 

http://tcpc.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopi...=4613#entry4613

 

I find it utterly fascinating just to entertain the possibility that my newborn son chose us to be his parents, that his life will begin to unfold according to choices he has already made in perfect divine freedom, and that my task as a parent is to help him find his calling and equip him to carry it out. What a mind-bogglingly different way to approach life than the random meaninglessness bequeathed to us by our techno-scientific society!

[cunninglily]

But I don't actually believe that any of us can "choose" to die to self; we can only desire to die to self or not, and since it can be argued that we are not the author of our desires...this suggests that God initiates throughout the process of salvation according to His Plan. In other words, God is the Initiator of every stage of His Plan of Salvation.

I do think you're right about this; and yet, in some mysterious paradoxical way, it is just as true that we are completely and utterly responsible for our choices. One of the most troubling texts in the Bible concerning destiny and free will comes from Matthew 26:24: "The Son of Man goes as it is written of him, but woe to that one by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been better for that one not to have been born." That's frightening! The betrayer is destined to do "as it is written," but he'll be punished for it?!

 

Awhile back, in the Fundamental Theology and Matrix threads, I suggested this problem might have a very succinct, if bizarre, solution, summed up neatly in a statement the Oracle made to Neo in Reloaded: "You've already made your choice, now you've got to understand it."

 

Also my post from the FT thread:

 

http://tcpc.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopi...=4613#entry4613

 

I find it utterly fascinating just to entertain the possibility that my newborn son chose us to be his parents, that his life will begin to unfold according to choices he has already made in perfect divine freedom, and that my task as a parent is to help him find his calling and equip him to carry it out. What a mind-bogglingly different way to approach life than the random meaninglessness bequeathed to us by our techno-scientific society!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

You may want to check out this interview with James Hillman concerning his ideas in his book, The Souls Code...

 

http://www.scottlondon.com/insight/scripts/hillman.html

 

Christianity is rife with these sorts of contradictions and paradoxes: Some are "called" which indicates that others are not, while others are "chosen" indicating that some of the "called" as well as the "not called" are also not "chosen". The Bible states somewhere that God made vessels unto honor and some unto dishonor but woe to those made for dishonor and so on...I can't even pretend to understand it myself, but I am aware in my own life that very little of what is considered important in my life was actually "chosen" by me. Nevertheless, I do not ever feel that I am not accountable for what I do or do not do...there is an unerring quality of Justice that I recognize in life and from the most mundane point of view, I can see just how I became the person I am today, and recognize some of the "choices" that led me here. But there are always larger forces at work (Hillman talks a great deal about the environment or societal pressures which form us just as much, if not more, than our own "choices" do) and it is only my imagination which can envision different choices than the ones I've actually made, with absolutely no certainty that I could have chosen differently at the time of choice at all. In other words, I remain as I am for good or ill.

 

You're going to be a great father, Fred. Congratulations to you and your wife once again.

 

lily

[sprout]

It seems to me that if more Christians would consider that salvation is an on-going process intiated by God that must be worked out; that our Calling is to a great deal more than simply heaven when we die; that we are ultimately mediators between God and all of Life, that there would be a whole lot less "converting" and "condemning" going on and a lot more individual and collective "fear and trembling" as we struggle to let go of our lives and enter the eternal realm where Christ rules in and through us.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Beautifully put!

 

I do think you're right about this; and yet, in some mysterious paradoxical way, it is just as true that we are completely and utterly responsible for our choices.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Amen to paradox!

I think this has much to do with whether one perceives the situation from a dualistic or non-dualistic perspective. From the dualistic perspective we do choose and it does matter. From the non-dual perspective we don't choose and it does not matter. When the Jesus of John's gospel says, "I and the Father are one", he speaks from a non-dual perspective. In fact, it seems to me, most of the "I am" statements in John express non-dual consciousness.

The latest issue (Sep-Nov 2005) of What Is Enlightenment magazine has a discussion about immortality between Ken Wilber and Andrew Cohen that is quite relevent to this. I will quote a little of what Wilber says:

 

"...there is a little stretch of hell in our development from subconsious to self-conscious to superconscious. The subconscious realm doesn't suffer because it is not self-conscious. There is no existential angst. But then there is a period where you're self-conscious enough to know that you're finite and you intuit infinity, but you haven't yet awakened to real infinity. And between that is all of the hell of humanity. ... It is absolute hell because you are on earth, you intuit heaven, and you are a mixture of both. I think the great archetypal figure of this is Christ. Because, for example, the sitting image of the Buddha is largely one who is simply awakened and "off the wheel [of samsara, the phenomenal world]". He is awakened to the inifinite unmanifest but hasn't integrated the manifest. But Christ is both human and divine, and he knows fully that he is both. And the passion on the cross is the passion of humanity between these two points. I think it's a beautiful image. It's a sad, horrifying image, but it's very true."

 

I think this is pretty good Christian theology coming from a practicing Buddhist. I would equate subconscious with Eden, self-conscious with the fall/sin, and superconscious with salvation (death of self to be replaced by Christ living in us).

 

This is a good discussion. I enjoy it. Thanks!

John

[FredP]

I think this is pretty good Christian theology coming from a practicing Buddhist. I would equate subconscious with Eden, self-conscious with the fall/sin, and superconscious with salvation (death of self to be replaced by Christ living in us).

Ah, a Ken Wilber fan, excellent! This is Ken's Pre/Trans Fallacy in a nutshell. Good stuff.