Discussing PC

[PaulS]

On 2/27/2020 at 5:07 PM, TheTechnician said:

PC is to me a path to faith where I get to hold on to the all inclusive values taught by my hippie parents while exploring God's love through humanity. Ours is not to judge or condemn. Ours is to explore and love. Many "legacy" systems of Christianity appose the message much of the Bible is trying to convey. PC is a way to merge faith with modern science, sociology and life experience. I think it is not what you believe, who to or where you pray, just that you have faith and a moral compass. I want to do good things and be a better person, so I take those lessons and apply them to my life in a modern interpretation. I'd say maybe I've got it all wrong, but that defies the whole PC thing, doesn't it?

Personally I don't get too hung up on what is and what is not PC.  There are some general guidelines under the 8 Points, but they are not dogmatic 'must have' beliefs to qualify.  I don't think that is the intention of PC - you get enough of that with other streams of Christianity. PC encourages you to be yourself and investigate, question, doubt and grow as God speaks to you, personally, however that may be.  

 

Note: Thread with 14 posts split off from "What does PC mean to you by JosephM

Edited March 2, 2020 by JosephM
Thread split

[Burl]

18 hours ago, TheTechnician said:

PC is to me a path to faith where I get to hold on to the all inclusive values taught by my hippie parents while exploring God's love through humanity. Ours is not to judge or condemn. Ours is to explore and love. Many "legacy" systems of Christianity appose the message much of the Bible is trying to convey. PC is a way to merge faith with modern science, sociology and life experience. I think it is not what you believe, who to or where you pray, just that you have faith and a moral compass. I want to do good things and be a better person, so I take those lessons and apply them to my life in a modern interpretation. I'd say maybe I've got it all wrong, but that defies the whole PC thing, doesn't it?

Welcome aboard! 

[PaulS]

14 hours ago, Elen1107 said:

.....Just trying to get, or "tune into" the Spirits of JC, God/Higher Power/Great Spirit etc. , and what's called the Holy Spirit.

I think that is what all religions are trying to achieve to a large degree.  Many people feel there is something else and the various religious beliefs, including those who are 'spiritual but not religious', do seem to be attempts to try and understand that.  Of course we have seen most of the different understandings claiming to be the 'right' one, which is what I like about PC - it isn't 'telling' you what you need, it is inviting you to simply relax and enjoy the trip.

[Elen1107]

7 hours ago, PaulS said:

I think that is what all religions are trying to achieve to a large degree.  Many people feel there is something else and the various religious beliefs, including those who are 'spiritual but not religious', do seem to be attempts to try and understand that.  Of course we have seen most of the different understandings claiming to be the 'right' one, which is what I like about PC - it isn't 'telling' you what you need, it is inviting you to simply relax and enjoy the trip.

Yeah, I don't like to be told what to do or how to think, & don't like telling other people in the same way either. People should be using their own thinking, discretion and discernment.

I do like to be able to state where I myself am at from time to time and what really works for me, without it being taken as telling others what to think. It's nice to find people with similar understandings or outlooks on things, but where that's not happening we need to be ok with our differences,... as long as no one is hurting, or discriminating, or defaming, etc. other persons/people.

[thormas]

4 hours ago, Elen1107 said:

Yeah, I don't like to be told what to do or how to think, & don't like telling other people in the same way either. People should be using their own thinking, discretion and discernment.

I do like to be able to state where I myself am at from time to time and what really works for me, without it being taken as telling others what to think. It's nice to find people with similar understandings or outlooks on things, but where that's not happening we need to be ok with our differences,... as long as no one is hurting, or discriminating, or defaming, etc. other persons/people.

It always seemed to me that the 8 Points present an ethic and a belief (of sorts). 

However, I understand why you, why many of us, don't like "to be told what to do or how to think." However I never thought we were only using our own thinking and discernment: when we hear (or read) another we are oftentimes at least being open to their thinking and 'trying it on' to see if it 'fits' -  if it might also work for us. 

[thormas]

On 2/27/2020 at 5:07 PM, TheTechnician said:

PC is to me a path to faith where I get to hold on to the all inclusive values taught by my hippie parents while exploring God's love through humanity. Ours is not to judge or condemn. Ours is to explore and love. Many "legacy" systems of Christianity appose the message much of the Bible is trying to convey. PC is a way to merge faith with modern science, sociology and life experience. I think it is not what you believe, who to or where you pray, just that you have faith and a moral compass. I want to do good things and be a better person, so I take those lessons and apply them to my life in a modern interpretation. I'd say maybe I've got it all wrong, but that defies the whole PC thing, doesn't it?

It sounds like your 'hippie parents' were onto something with their inclusive values. I know many who are 'not religious' but share similar values as the values inherent in the best of Christianity seemed too often to be at odds with some of what were the 'beliefs' of Christianity.

[Burl]

11 minutes ago, thormas said:

It always seemed to me that the 8 Points present an ethic and a belief (of sorts). 

However, I understand why you, why many of us, don't like "to be told what to do or how to think." However I never thought we were only using our own thinking and discernment: when we hear (or read) another we are at least being open to their thinking and 'trying it on' to see if it 'fits' -  if it might also work for us. 

The big issue here is avoiding self-deception.  

One needs an external reference to use as a criterion or they end up chasing their own thought butterflies.

[thormas]

58 minutes ago, Burl said:

The big issue here is avoiding self-deception.  

One needs an external reference to use as a criterion or they end up chasing their own thought butterflies.

Thus it is good to read the works of others rather than just rely solely on oneself (if that is even possible in our world).

[PaulS]

3 hours ago, Burl said:

The big issue here is avoiding self-deception.  

One needs an external reference to use as a criterion or they end up chasing their own thought butterflies.

External references, particularly when they are already embedded in one's culture, play also to this self-deception.  It's not that remarkable that Christians tend to grow up in a Christian culture, Muslims tend to grow up in an Islamic culture, Buddhists tend to grow up in a Buddhist culture, etc etc.

[Burl]

42 minutes ago, PaulS said:

External references, particularly when they are already embedded in one's culture, play also to this self-deception.  It's not that remarkable that Christians tend to grow up in a Christian culture, Muslims tend to grow up in an Islamic culture, Buddhists tend to grow up in a Buddhist culture, etc etc.

Tradition is certainly one external reference that helps to avoids self-deception.  Scripture is another, as is experience.

[PaulS]

23 minutes ago, Burl said:

Tradition is certainly one external reference that helps to avoids self-deception.  Scripture is another, as is experience.

No, you misread what I say.  Tradition 'feeds into' this self-deception because you have already started with a bias - the bias being the cultural tradition itself that you've been raised in.  It's not rocket science to understand why Muslim countries largely produce more Muslims and Christian countries largely produce more Christians.  Their respective traditions are already telling those people that their tradition is right.

Why haven't you put as much time and effort into studying Islam's traditions and scriptures as you have the Christian ones?

[Burl]

2 minutes ago, PaulS said:

No, you misread what I say.  Tradition 'feeds into' this self-deception because you have already started with a bias - the bias being the cultural tradition itself that you've been raised in.  It's not rocket science to understand why Muslim countries largely produce more Muslims and Christian countries largely produce more Christians.  Their respective traditions are already telling those people that their tradition is right.

Why haven't you put as much time and effort into studying Islam's traditions and scriptures as you have the Christian ones?

I have put years into studying Islam and work almost weekly with imams on biblical issues that come up in their dawa.  

Jesus is critical in Islam.  We should discuss this more.

[PaulS]

55 minutes ago, Burl said:

I have put years into studying Islam and work almost weekly with imams on biblical issues that come up in their dawa.  

Jesus is critical in Islam.  We should discuss this more.

But you chose to study in Christianity rather than say a Masters of Divinity in Islam because why?  I suspect it’s because one tradition spoke to you more strongly than the other and further suspect that the tradition that spoke most strongly to you was the tradition of the culture in which you happened to be raised.  Statistically, that is by far what happens the majority of the time when it comes to religious belief.

[Burl]

5 hours ago, PaulS said:

But you chose to study in Christianity rather than say a Masters of Divinity in Islam because why?  I suspect it’s because one tradition spoke to you more strongly than the other and further suspect that the tradition that spoke most strongly to you was the tradition of the culture in which you happened to be raised.  Statistically, that is by far what happens the majority of the time when it comes to religious belief.

I was thinking of original or non-conformist morés.  One cannot judge these without an external reference.

If one reads the bible authentically they will come up with non-conformist ideas so they need a method to evaluate their new idea.

[Elen1107]

12 hours ago, thormas said:

It always seemed to me that the 8 Points present an ethic and a belief (of sorts). 

However, I understand why you, why many of us, don't like "to be told what to do or how to think." However I never thought we were only using our own thinking and discernment: when we hear (or read) another we are oftentimes at least being open to their thinking and 'trying it on' to see if it 'fits' -  if it might also work for us. 

Yeah, but even when "'trying it on' to see if it 'fits'" one is using their own discernment, discretion and thinking, (and or the discernment and discretion/thinking that the Higher Spirit/God gives/offers them).

Even when taking an idea from another source or person, we are taking responsibility for taking on that/those ideas. Or at least hopefully we are (to the best of our abilities).

Also one can use their own thinking and discernment before "trying it on", and just think about it/something/an idea or set of ideas, and decide and come to a determination that way.

[PaulS]

2 hours ago, Burl said:

I was thinking of original or non-conformist morés.  One cannot judge these without an external reference.

If one reads the bible authentically they will come up with non-conformist ideas so they need a method to evaluate their new idea.

To me it seems ALL morés were original and possible non-conformist at some time.  They didn't automatically exist by themselves but came to be comprehended a certain way by certain people in certain situations, but even so, this doesn't necessarily make them truth - they may just seem like truth to the people that think of them as such.  This also demonstrates that original morés were/are possible without an external reference - unless one thinks morés could not have been possibly developed before the written word or without another external reference.

One may well use an external reference to judge them, but who decides that such a reference is accurate? 

I would even suggest that a lot of the morés that Christians understand from the bible, existed well before there was an external reference to judge such morés against.  So if the original discovers of such morés can manage without external references, why can't others?

We can use methods to evaluate new ideas - but I'm saying that when it comes to 'God' matters, and in this case your 'authentic reading of the bible', usually these methods are already strikingly aligned with what the believer is more or less considering.  That's no coincidence - that's what tradition does, in my opinion, particularly around religious matters.

And as an aside, particularly around religion, I think it is a very human emotion that we 'need' a method to evaluate a new idea.  We humans have this 'need' to be right, this 'need' to have reassurance that what we think is what most people do or should be thinking.  That's good when it comes to deciding whether we should dnace with sabre tooth tigers or not, but is a lot less helpful when we are dealing with less certain and much more personal mental considerations, such as 'God'.

[thormas]

2 hours ago, Elen1107 said:

Yeah, but even when "'trying it on' to see if it 'fits'" one is using their own discernment, discretion and thinking, (and or the discernment and discretion/thinking that the Higher Spirit/God gives/offers them).

Even when taking an idea from another source or person, we are taking responsibility for taking on that/those ideas. Or at least hopefully we are (to the best of our abilities).

Also one can use their own thinking and discernment before "trying it on", and just think about it/something/an idea or set of ideas, and decide and come to a determination that way.

True but at times, hearing or reading the words of another (or interacting with another) can be a pleasant surprise or unsettling or even be experienced as a judgement (a mirror thrown up in front of you and you see yourself in a new light). So there is our own thinking but something can be introduced that gives us pause and adds or affect our thinking. 

I agree, we are taking or should be taking responsibility (and using our own thinking) to consider the new idea. 

[Elen1107]

Concerning a number of people's comments on this thread; They have inspired me to think of this movie. There's a piece of dialog at 47:50 - 48:00 that goes like this:

Angel: "There's nothing we're not allowed to do. It's just that we don't believe in doing what we know is wrong."

Badman (John Wayne): "Well that makes it pretty much each fella's own guess."

Angel: "But each fellow know inside."

I find that one needs to fine-tune and hone one's sense of truth and of what is right and wrong, (at least I do/have), and then maintain and keep up with this "fine-tuning" and discernment. 

A person needs to put the "Truth" first, no matter what one has to win, lose or draw with/on. . . That is if one really wants to find the "Truth" and be aware of what the best things to think or do are.

[ For myself, I find this a good movie, even if it's a bit old-fashioned, with a good number of moral quips and even insights in it. In the next line in the dialog, John Wayne/The Badman says, "Well there's a lot of gents I wouldn't want to give that much leeway to." . . . perhaps they haven't "fine-tuned" their discernment that much yet . . . ]

Thanks for reading

 

 

[thormas]

2 hours ago, Elen1107 said:

Concerning a number of people's comments on this thread; They have inspired me to think of this movie. There's a piece of dialog at 47:50 - 48:00 that goes like this:

Angel: "There's nothing we're not allowed to do. It's just that we don't believe in doing what we know is wrong."

Badman (John Wayne): "Well that makes it pretty much each fella's own guess."

Angel: "But each fellow know inside."

I find that one needs to fine-tune and hone one's sense of truth and of what is right and wrong, (at least I do/have), and then maintain and keep up with this "fine-tuning" and discernment. 

A person needs to put the "Truth" first, no matter what one has to win, lose or draw with/on. . . That is if one really wants to find the "Truth" and be aware of what the best things to think or do are.

[ For myself, I find this a good movie, even if it's a bit old-fashioned, with a good number of moral quips and even insights in it. In the next line in the dialog, John Wayne/The Badman says, "Well there's a lot of gents I wouldn't want to give that much leeway to." . . . perhaps they haven't "fine-tuned" their discernment that much yet . . . ]

Thanks for reading

 

 

John Wayne can do no wrong! 

I like the example you gave and agree that the fine tuning is a life long process. Irenaeus who lived 200 years before Augustine would agree with you. He did not envision a perfect humanity that fell from grace but believed there were two stages to creation. In the first stage, we are born (evolve) as intelligent beings capable of moral and spiritual growth (what he calls the 'image' of God) and in the next (present) stage, we are being changed (changing ourselves) from these human creatures into Children of God/The Spirit (what he calls the 'likeness' of God). 

One of my favorite authors, Nikos Kazantzakis in 'The Temptation of Christ' uses the image of man transforming the clay (the mud) of humanity into divinity.

 

Perhaps this is what Jesus did: his death on the cross was the final moment of transformation in which his humanity expressed (became) divinity (selfless, self-giving love). And the resurrection, however one might understand it, is the experience/ the declaration that such a life cannot be held by death. As Irenaeus said "God had become what we are, that He might bring us to be even what He is Himself." Or simply, Divinity (Love) in humanity so that humanity might become Divinity (children of God).

One thing that has always intrigued me is the realization that such fine tuning (such transformation), for most of us, is not accomplished before we die. 

 

Edited March 2, 2020 by thormas

[PaulS]

10 hours ago, Elen1107 said:

I find that one needs to fine-tune and hone one's sense of truth and of what is right and wrong, (at least I do/have), and then maintain and keep up with this "fine-tuning" and discernment. 

A person needs to put the "Truth" first, no matter what one has to win, lose or draw with/on. . . That is if one really wants to find the "Truth" and be aware of what the best things to think or do are.

I think you hit the nail on the head when you say "one needs to fine-tune and hone one's sense of truth".  Personally I don't think there is some supernatural truth 'out there' somewhere that we are able to tap into, but rather we live and breath on this earth at this point in time and we find truths that fit for us that may otherwise not in a different time or different culture. 

As a very basic example, once upon a time genuine people who thought they were in touch with their God believed stoning people to death or keeping others in slavery was the right thing to do, the truth.  Generally speaking, we don't consider that a truth in today's day and age.  So for me, truth is something a little less hard and fast and a little more subtle and changing depending on where we are at in our existence.

We think it is easy to discern truths such as not committing murder, not raping, not hurting others (unless justified) etc.  But to me, these seem pretty clear because they go to supporting or not harming, our 'community'.  I think where it gets a lot trickier is when people start discerning certain truths say about sexuality or morals (or dare I say religious beliefs) - that's when discerning the truth can indeed be impacted by societal and cultural acceptance, and also by personal experiences.  So one's personal discernment may not necessarily be truth, in my opinion.

I'm happy with whatever works for the individual, but draw the line where for me I consider such 'truths' to be harmful to my community.  After all, that's where I exist.

[Elen1107]

8 hours ago, thormas said:

John Wayne can do no wrong! 

I like the example you gave and agree that the fine tuning is a life long process. Irenaeus who lived 200 years before Augustine would agree with you. He did not envision a perfect humanity that fell from grace but believed there were two stages to creation. In the first stage, we are born (evolve) as intelligent beings capable of moral and spiritual growth (what he calls the 'image' of God) and in the next (present) stage, we are being changed (changing ourselves) from these human creatures into Children of God/The Spirit (what he calls the 'likeness' of God). 

One of my favorite authors, Nikos Kazantzakis in 'The Temptation of Christ' uses the image of man transforming the clay (the mud) of humanity into divinity.

 

Perhaps this is what Jesus did: his death on the cross was the final moment of transformation in which his humanity expressed (became) divinity (selfless, self-giving love). And the resurrection, however one might understand it, is the experience/ the declaration that such a life cannot be held by death. As Irenaeus said "God had become what we are, that He might bring us to be even what He is Himself." Or simply, Divinity (Love) in humanity so that humanity might become Divinity (children of God).

One thing that has always intrigued me is the realization that such fine tuning (such transformation), for most of us, is not accomplished before we die. 

 

Concerning your first sentence: "John Wayne can do no wrong!" . 🙂 . I don't think I, myself would say this about any person, cept probably JC. . . No person, no priest, no prophet, no pope, no parent, no partner, etc. . 🙂. . . I'm figuring you meant this in just, so I'm kind of lol 🙂 . . . Aren't his movies great though!

You make some interesting and to myself, rather complex points in your other sentences and paragraphs. It might be good to get back to them, though for myself, perhaps one at a time. Right now I'm pretty tired and burnt out, and have to stick with the simple stuff for a while.

I will say one thing however, I do believe that we/people can or have the potential to evolve beyond death,.. and that JC did, and is, (evolved beyond death that is).

[Elen1107]

2 hours ago, PaulS said:

I think you hit the nail on the head when you say "one needs to fine-tune and hone one's sense of truth".  Personally I don't think there is some supernatural truth 'out there' somewhere that we are able to tap into, but rather we live and breath on this earth at this point in time and we find truths that fit for us that may otherwise not in a different time or different culture. 

As a very basic example, once upon a time genuine people who thought they were in touch with their God believed stoning people to death or keeping others in slavery was the right thing to do, the truth.  Generally speaking, we don't consider that a truth in today's day and age.  So for me, truth is something a little less hard and fast and a little more subtle and changing depending on where we are at in our existence.

We think it is easy to discern truths such as not committing murder, not raping, not hurting others (unless justified) etc.  But to me, these seem pretty clear because they go to supporting or not harming, our 'community'.  I think where it gets a lot trickier is when people start discerning certain truths say about sexuality or morals (or dare I say religious beliefs) - that's when discerning the truth can indeed be impacted by societal and cultural acceptance, and also by personal experiences.  So one's personal discernment may not necessarily be truth, in my opinion.

I'm happy with whatever works for the individual, but draw the line where for me I consider such 'truths' to be harmful to my community.  After all, that's where I exist.

I think we disagree on a few points,... I hope that's ok and that it's all with a good and positive spirt.

Where I wouldn't say "some supernatural truth 'out there' somewhere", I would say that I believe there is some kind of Divine and Spiritual truth(s) that we can make 'contact' with. I wouldn't say it's so much "out there", as something we can make contact with through our souls and spirts, consciousness and intuition,.. and minds.

Something that I've realized just recently is that slavery has existed on all continents, among just about all peoples,.. and since before even written history. . . I'm like wow! . . . It wasn't until like the American Civil War that slavery became shunned and despised and outlawed globally and internationally. There are even a few countries that have just outlawed it recently, since even the 1960's and 1980's, Saudi Arabia and Yemen being two of these countries. I've even read that it still exists in one North West African country, (the name of which I can't remember right now, but one can Google it) though in this country it is illegal and is denied and kept underground. . .  . . . I do believe however, that slavery is Divinely and Eternally wrong, hideous and horrendous, no matter what is said in any so called "religious" texts by any "religion" whatsoever. . . So I do believe there is a real "Divine and Everlasting Truth" here and that it's about time that we humans figured this out.

Concerning what you said about "sexual morals". I certainly don't believe that we should, or that governments should legislate people's private lives. To me that is just ridiculous and ludicrous. I think that people need to pretty much judge and decide for themselves what is right and wrong and what they should and shouldn't be doing and what works for them. There are some considerations however, like children and what happens to and with them, and things like STDs and Aids, and also things like are various types of birth control really safe both in terms of for the person taking or using them and in terms of creating an infant. There is of course the consideration of consent too. By consent I mean, physical consent (no force or violence), age of consent, religious or mind-state consent, and economic consent,... and there are probably a few other considerations that one could list here also in terms of consent, gross intimidation for instance. These things I think are wrong and Divinely wrong, and have always been so,... people just need to figure this out also.

For myself, I believe in "One Love ~ True Love". And to me there is something Divine and Spiritual about this also,... but it's not because of some kind of divine truth or outer morals or something,... It's because this is who I really am, this is part of my identity,... and I have a right to be this way, just as other people have a right to do things their way and be who they are. And this should be respected both ways and to the core and bottom of who we really are. 

BTW, "One Love ~ True Love" is not something that is expressed in any religious texts that I know of,. . . They all give us a bunch of other yadder-yadder on the subject,.. a lot of which doesn't sit right with me at all and I for one am going to respect my right to do things in a way that I think and feel is right and best for myself. . . . (btw I also think that "One Love ~ True Love" is Eternal Love,.. in case that isn't clear from the phrase).

Thanks for Reading all this.

Edited March 3, 2020 by Elen1107

[PaulS]

1 hour ago, Elen1107 said:

I think we disagree on a few points,... I hope that's ok and that it's all with a good and positive spirt.

100% okay with me.  There are a lot of things I am not certain about!

Quote

Where I wouldn't say "some supernatural truth 'out there' somewhere", I would say that I believe there is some kind of Divine and Spiritual truth(s) that we can make 'contact' with. I wouldn't say it's so much "out there", as something we can make contact with through our souls and spirts, consciousness and intuition,.. and minds.

It sounds like you still think it is something outside of or away from one’s self, as though it’s not an attribute one already has as a part of their being.  It sounds like you consider it seperate from what and who we are and as though it needs to be ‘found’ or contacted.  So in that regard it still seems to me to be ‘out there’ as in not a part of who we already are.

Quote

Something that I've realized just recently is that slavery has existed on all continents, among just about all peoples,.. and since before even written history. . . I'm like wow! . . . It wasn't until like the American Civil War that slavery became shunned and despised and outlawed globally and internationally. There are even a few countries that have just outlawed it recently, since even the 1960's and 1980's, Saudi Arabia and Yemen being two of these countries. I've even read that it still exists in one North West African country, (the name of which I can't remember right now, but one can Google it) though in this country it is illegal and is denied and kept underground. . .  . . . I do believe however, that slavery is Divinely and Eternally wrong, hideous and horrendous, no matter what is said in any so called "religious" texts by any "religion" whatsoever. . . So I do believe there is a real "Divine and Everlasting Truth" here and that it's about time that we humans figured this out.

Interestingly, indigenous Australians, probably historically the oldest and most isolated human culture, reports no slavery before European’s arrived on the scene.  I wonder if in their isolation from the rest of humankind some 50-90,000 years prior meant the thought of enslaving another human just never crossed their minds?  And yes, it wasn’t until 1833 that the English abolished slavery in their empire, 1848 for the French (they had abolished it long before but it had come back) and eventually the US in 1865.

i too believe slavery should be eternally held as wrong.  I’m just making the point that historically the majority of humankind throughout history seems to have thought it was right.  So my only point was that ‘truth’ as we determine it often reflects the societal and cultural situations we find ourselves in.

Quote

Concerning what you said about "sexual morals". I certainly don't believe that we should, or that governments should legislate people's private lives. To me that is just ridiculous and ludicrous. I think that people need to pretty much judge and decide for themselves what is right and wrong and what they should and shouldn't be doing and what works for them. There are some considerations however, like children and what happens to and with them, and things like STDs and Aids, and also things like are various types of birth control really safe both in terms of for the person taking or using them and in terms of creating an infant. There is of course the consideration of consent too. By consent I mean, physical consent (no force or violence), age of consent, religious or mind-state consent, and economic consent,... and there are probably a few other considerations that one could list here also in terms of consent, gross intimidation for instance. These things I think are wrong and Divinely wrong, and have always been so,... people just need to figure this out also.

I agree, but again my point is just that such understandings are reflective of our cultural values.  Today we couldn’t imagine a man marrying a 13yr old girl, but historically nobody batted an eyelid.  So ‘truth’ was understood differently at different times, I would argue. 

Quote

For myself, I believe in "One Love ~ True Love". And to me there is something Divine and Spiritual about this also,... but it's not because of some kind of divine truth or outer morals or something,... It's because this is who I really am, this is part of my identity,... and I have a right to be this way, just as other people have a right to do things their way and be who they are. And this should be respected both ways and to the core and bottom of who we really are. 

Respect and tolerance are two buzz words we use.  I don’t disagree with them, particularly if it is respect and tolerance of what I believe is right! . But if part of your identity was that you believed God wanted all infidels to be beheaded, then I wouldn’t be as keen to see you exercise your right to ‘be who you are’.  This is where I see understanding self as reflective of our cultural and societal influences.

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BTW, "One Love ~ True Love" is not something that is expressed in any religious texts that I know of,. . . They all give us a bunch of other yadder-yadder on the subject,.. a lot of which doesn't sit right with me at all and I for one am going to respect my right to do things in a way that I think and feel is right and best for myself. . . . (btw I also think that "One Love ~ True Love" is Eternal Love,.. in case that isn't clear from the phrase).

Thanks for Reading all this.

No problem.  Peace and goodwill.

[thormas]

11 hours ago, PaulS said:

As a very basic example, once upon a time genuine people who thought they were in touch with their God believed stoning people to death or keeping others in slavery was the right thing to do, the truth.  Generally speaking, we don't consider that a truth in today's day and age.  So for me, truth is something a little less hard and fast and a little more subtle and changing depending on where we are at in our existence.

The good news is that there was one man who stopped the 'stoners' in their tracks and said "consider." So there was once a people or some people who were ready willing and able to pick up the stones but they were shown the error of their way and, hopefully, not just for this moment but, going forward from that moment and in similar moments, they carried that wisdom with them and the 'truth' continued to 'set them free.'

 

Edited March 3, 2020 by thormas

[thormas]

10 hours ago, Elen1107 said:

Concerning your first sentence: "John Wayne can do no wrong!" . 🙂 . I don't think I, myself would say this about any person, cept probably JC. . . No person, no priest, no prophet, no pope, no parent, no partner, etc. . 🙂. . . I'm figuring you meant this in just, so I'm kind of lol 🙂 . . . Aren't his movies great though!

You make some interesting and to myself, rather complex points in your other sentences and paragraphs. It might be good to get back to them, though for myself, perhaps one at a time. Right now I'm pretty tired and burnt out, and have to stick with the simple stuff for a while.

I will say one thing however, I do believe that we/people can or have the potential to evolve beyond death,.. and that JC did, and is, (evolved beyond death that is).

You are right, it was said in fun as I too love his movies, even the corny ones like Donovan's Reef.

I understand tired and burnt out. So if and when you ever want to discuss these points or others, I'll be here.