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The Deception of Evolution


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1 hour ago, thormas said:

You lost me: is God an object or thing that can be studied as the objects of science are?

Evolution is a natural process, meaning that the 'supernatural, i.e. God is not involved in a natural process (unless one is working from a theistic take on God). Is the evolution of man and woman into eternity also a natural process that does not need God?

I'm not trying to be difficult but I think words matter and I don't know any Progressive or Liberal Christians who would define science as the study of God. And I think most people in the 21st C define evolution as a natural process so how does one evolve into eternity (which by definition is supernatural)?

 

It could be said that Jesus was 'in God' in this way yet the negative did not fall away, he was crucified. Furthermore, his followers, also in Christ and in God, suffered hardship and death. It seems that being in God or Christ does not protect human beings from the negative in the world.

 

I guess I should have been clearer; science is the study of God's creation which in some ways is the study of God, as God is reflected in Es creation.

I think that God can be involved in natural processes, exactly how this happens and how it works I don't know. Of course the evolution into eternity involves God. As far as I'm concerned it can't be done without God. Perhaps it is conscious evolution, and choosing to evolve into eternity and into Christ.

I don't think anyone of us gets to define what Progressive Christianity is, though Spong talks about evolution and how we are still evolving.

Jesus and his early followers did suffer, but they are beyond that negativity now. They suffered so we do not have to. Very few people today have to suffer the same hardships and pain that they did because of their faith.

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I'm amazed to see how this evolution deception is spreading throughout the churches today. Man in his quest to gain worldly knowledge is casting away the plain truth of God's Word and "thus saith the

God bless you, Piriripi.  I admire your faith and I am glad to know you.  I post on a phone so I rarely write long missives or cover more than a single point so feel free to follow up.     The

PaulS, I have read through a few of the posts on this thread and feel I get the gist of where this is going.  I generally support your explanations on this topic.  I have come from a prior fundamental

50 minutes ago, Elen1107 said:

I guess I should have been clearer; science is the study of God's creation which in some ways is the study of God, as God is reflected in Es creation.

I think that God can be involved in natural processes, exactly how this happens and how it works I don't know. Of course the evolution into eternity involves God. As far as I'm concerned it can't be done without God. Perhaps it is conscious evolution, and choosing to evolve into eternity and into Christ.

I don't think anyone of us gets to define what Progressive Christianity is, though Spong talks about evolution and how we are still evolving.

Jesus and his early followers did suffer, but they are beyond that negativity now. They suffered so we do not have to. Very few people today have to suffer the same hardships and pain that they did because of their faith.

PC is rather fluid (and perhaps beyond a final definition) but my statement was about PCs defining science as the study of God - I just don't think that is done. I get though that Spong speaks of evolving into Christ. I also get your further explanation of science - Creation - God, however, as you know, a non-believer could look at science and creation and never see God or the reflection of God in creation.

I don't think God is involved in natural processes, on this I am a  bit of a 'deist' or a true panentheist: God is the source and sustainer of all, all is of/in God, but it appears that natural laws and principles are evident in creation and creation carries on governed by those laws - like gravity. If God was involved in natural processes it seems logical that he would then be involved in the natural processes of hurricanes, earthquakes, cancers, etc..............and then one could blame God for human suffering and death. Having said all that, I do believe that God is 'present and active' in the ordinary, everyday moments of human life (not sure about the rest of creation given the natural laws). 

I agree that 'human evolution into eternity' can't be done without God. I prefer the term divinazation of the human: man/woman doing what God IS (Love) and thus 'becoming/being' divine. 

Suffering is suffering and we do still suffer in many different ways. My point is that being 'in God' does not allow one to escape human limitation and fragility (in this life).

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On 8/4/2020 at 7:44 PM, PaulS said:

No I don't see.  We all use our thinking - you think you understand the bible a certain way.  That is your thinking.  What you have not thought through in my opinion is that much of the bible is myth and storytelling, such as the stories of creation, made by people who had no idea of the universe and its unfolding.  Science can now fill in that picture and it seems to me, only Christians who feel threatened by the science of our existence tend to deny it and grab hold of that literal bible even harder.  I would encourage you to release your grip a little and try to be open-minded about evolution.  That might help you see.

Go on YouTube and see the deception of evolution (2016) and tried to answer the questions if you can. Let me know. 

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48 minutes ago, thormas said:

PC is rather fluid (and perhaps beyond a final definition) but my statement was about PCs defining science as the study of God - I just don't think that is done. I get though that Spong speaks of evolving into Christ. I also get your further explanation of science - Creation - God, however, as you know, a non-believer could look at science and creation and never see God or the reflection of God in creation.

I don't think God is involved in natural processes, on this I am a  bit of a 'deist' or a true panentheist: God is the source and sustainer of all, all is of/in God, but it appears that natural laws and principles are evident in creation and creation carries on governed by those laws - like gravity. If God was involved in natural processes it seems logical that he would then be involved in the natural processes of hurricanes, earthquakes, cancers, etc..............and then one could blame God for human suffering and death. Having said all that, I do believe that God is 'present and active' in the ordinary, everyday moments of human life (not sure about the rest of creation given the natural laws). 

I agree that 'human evolution into eternity' can't be done without God. I prefer the term divinazation of the human: man/woman doing what God IS (Love) and thus 'becoming/being' divine. 

Suffering is suffering and we do still suffer in many different ways. My point is that being 'in God' does not allow one to escape human limitation and fragility (in this life).

God is the source of life, God doesn't need to intervene in His creation. It is better to ask God about His creation. 

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7 minutes ago, Pipiripi said:

God is the source of life, God doesn't need to intervene in His creation. It is better to ask God about His creation. 

What was salvation in Christ? .........an intervention to overcome sin which had a devastating impact on creation.

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PaulS, I have read through a few of the posts on this thread and feel I get the gist of where this is going.  I generally support your explanations on this topic.  I have come from a prior fundamentalist view of the Bible and can be sympathetic with the positioning of others on this thread, however, I have discovered that spiritual freedom, for me, demands that I enter into an honest discussion with reality.  For me, God no longer has to conform to dogma, even that which men have derived from a self-designated "Holy Book", and the Divine has been set free from the constricting box of dogmatic theological beliefs. 

As a result, acknowledging our dearth of understanding of the vastness and complexity of the universe, I am set free to walk beyond the confining restrictions of ancient explanations and actually experience the magnitude of a God who may have been the initiator of this awe inspiring creation.  I find myself thus standing in a far greater awe of the marvels of creation.  An awe that could never have been inspired by a book that is frozen in time regarding the scientific wonders that are continually being revealed. I prefer the scientific methodology that observes the evidence to see where it leads than a dogmatic one that determines the end goal and then finds support for its already existing questionable conclusion.

The fundamentalist argument against evolution is tired and worn.  My formal theological studies were completed in 1976 and the library of fundamentalist oriented "science" books supporting creation that I had at that time are echoed in the same basic arguments today.  It has been my personal experience through studying this topic that the field of genetics is too often overlooked in defining the scientific basis for an evolutionary history.  Missing links, speciation, etc. all fail to take seriously the overwhelming documentation and evidence available in our individual library of ancestry found within each cell of our bodies in the form of DNA.  

I have grown too old to enter into pointless arguments about what constitutes truth, particularly with those who tenaciously believe they already have it and are closed to new ideas that do not conform with their particular bias.  This is not a judgment or a challenge that would thwart a friendship, but merely a decision on my part to conserve energy on things that matter to me spiritually.  The transformative nature of genuine spiritual connection with the "Divine", however one may perceive that to be, is a main theme of my life so that I might more reflect, in my life's impact on others, the effect of illuminating what the "Kingdom of God on earth" might truly be like.  I'm clearly not the best example, but that is my ultimate energy consumer.  Thankful that this site offers the opportunity for such open discussion and a change to challenge one's faith.

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2 hours ago, Jerry said:

PaulS, I have read through a few of the posts on this thread and feel I get the gist of where this is going. 

I like what you said Jerry.  Thanks for sharing.

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2 hours ago, Pipiripi said:

Go on YouTube and see the deception of evolution (2016) and tried to answer the questions if you can. Let me know. 

Jerry's post helps remind me about just letting others be.  I'm not here to convince you Pipiripi and I don't have the energy to try.  Enjoy your journey - I do sincerely wish you well.

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2 hours ago, Jerry said:

PaulS, I have read through a few of the posts on this thread and feel I get the gist of where this is going.  I generally support your explanations on this topic.  I have come from a prior fundamentalist view of the Bible and can be sympathetic with the positioning of others on this thread, however, I have discovered that spiritual freedom, for me, demands that I enter into an honest discussion with reality.  For me, God no longer has to conform to dogma, even that which men have derived from a self-designated "Holy Book", and the Divine has been set free from the constricting box of dogmatic theological beliefs. 

As a result, acknowledging our dearth of understanding of the vastness and complexity of the universe, I am set free to walk beyond the confining restrictions of ancient explanations and actually experience the magnitude of a God who may have been the initiator of this awe inspiring creation.  I find myself thus standing in a far greater awe of the marvels of creation.  An awe that could never have been inspired by a book that is frozen in time regarding the scientific wonders that are continually being revealed. I prefer the scientific methodology that observes the evidence to see where it leads than a dogmatic one that determines the end goal and then finds support for its already existing questionable conclusion.

The fundamentalist argument against evolution is tired and worn.  My formal theological studies were completed in 1976 and the library of fundamentalist oriented "science" books supporting creation that I had at that time are echoed in the same basic arguments today.  It has been my personal experience through studying this topic that the field of genetics is too often overlooked in defining the scientific basis for an evolutionary history.  Missing links, speciation, etc. all fail to take seriously the overwhelming documentation and evidence available in our individual library of ancestry found within each cell of our bodies in the form of DNA.  

I have grown too old to enter into pointless arguments about what constitutes truth, particularly with those who tenaciously believe they already have it and are closed to new ideas that do not conform with their particular bias.  This is not a judgment or a challenge that would thwart a friendship, but merely a decision on my part to conserve energy on things that matter to me spiritually.  The transformative nature of genuine spiritual connection with the "Divine", however one may perceive that to be, is a main theme of my life so that I might more reflect, in my life's impact on others, the effect of illuminating what the "Kingdom of God on earth" might truly be like.  I'm clearly not the best example, but that is my ultimate energy consumer.  Thankful that this site offers the opportunity for such open discussion and a change to challenge one's faith.

Thanks Jerry, like Paul, I really like what you've said.

Welcome again to this forum.

Edit> I like what you've said so much, that I've gone and read it twice. Thanks for taking the time to write it all out and post it. 

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4 hours ago, thormas said:

PC is rather fluid (and perhaps beyond a final definition) but my statement was about PCs defining science as the study of God - I just don't think that is done. I get though that Spong speaks of evolving into Christ. I also get your further explanation of science - Creation - God, however, as you know, a non-believer could look at science and creation and never see God or the reflection of God in creation.

 

I used to be one of those non-believers, at least I thought I was, and speaking for myself, the world looked dead to me. Now that I see God reflected in creation, things look vastly more wonderful, beautiful and amazing.

4 hours ago, thormas said:

I don't think God is involved in natural processes, on this I am a  bit of a 'deist' or a true panentheist: God is the source and sustainer of all, all is of/in God, but it appears that natural laws and principles are evident in creation and creation carries on governed by those laws - like gravity. If God was involved in natural processes it seems logical that he would then be involved in the natural processes of hurricanes, earthquakes, cancers, etc..............and then one could blame God for human suffering and death. Having said all that, I do believe that God is 'present and active' in the ordinary, everyday moments of human life (not sure about the rest of creation given the natural laws). 

 

I know people who think things like; the dinosaurs were so awful and creating so much negativity that it caused a meteorite to smash into the earth. Or that it's human's negative energy that causes things like tornados and floods and earthquakes and hurricanes and tidal waves. Perhaps human negative energy can cause things like cancer too. Myself, I don't know about all this stuff, but I certainly don't believe that God causes any of it. Like I say I don't know, but it certainly is better than blaming God for these types of things.

I found a video where Spong talks about evolution, for anyone who is interested in it. I don't agree with every last point that he makes, but still I think he says a lot that is meaningful and important 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CGriJgAAWvw

 

 

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10 hours ago, PaulS said:

Jerry's post helps remind me about just letting others be.  I'm not here to convince you Pipiripi and I don't have the energy to try.  Enjoy your journey - I do sincerely wish you well.

Thank you, but for me, I cannot stop giving you Jesus Paul. I'm not like Jerry. I am like Jesus of NAZARETH, the Son of the LIVING GOD.  Everybody say!! AMEN.

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11 hours ago, Elen1107 said:

I know people who think things like; the dinosaurs were so awful and creating so much negativity that it caused a meteorite to smash into the earth. Or that it's human's negative energy that causes things like tornados and floods and earthquakes and hurricanes and tidal waves. Perhaps human negative energy can cause things like cancer too. Myself, I don't know about all this stuff, but I certainly don't believe that God causes any of it. Like I say I don't know, but it certainly is better than blaming God for these types of things.

I get that one with negative energy can ruin a gathering of friends, impact a family or a relationship but I don't buy that the dinosaurs 'created negative energy' or caused their own destruction by a meteorite. They were mere animals, a bit bigger than my dogs, and mostly preoccupied with eating. I don't think animals are capable of negativity - at least as humans understand it or are.

And, I think the idea of human negative energy creating tornadoes, floods, hurricanes, etc, is absurd. Too many times the most innocent people or countries with immense problems are greatly harmed by nature while what some might consider more advanced countries and 'dens of inequity' remain untouched. And the idea of cancer being caused by negative energy is simply obscene. I have been in cancer wards, seen others so sick it would cause one to weep, people undergoing years of having toxic medicines pumped into their veins - yet so full of light and life it is both humbling and revelatory.

I don't blame God but I certainly don't blame man or animals for natural disasters or disease.

 

The point remains though that if God is 'involved in nature and natural events' then one could blame God for human suffering caused by those events.

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2 hours ago, Pipiripi said:

Thank you, but for me, I cannot stop giving you Jesus Paul. I'm not like Jerry. I am like Jesus of NAZARETH, the Son of the LIVING GOD.  Everybody say!! AMEN.

How about we just say, "ruh-roh."

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12 hours ago, thormas said:

I get that one with negative energy can ruin a gathering of friends, impact a family or a relationship but I don't buy that the dinosaurs 'created negative energy' or caused their own destruction by a meteorite. They were mere animals, a bit bigger than my dogs, and mostly preoccupied with eating. I don't think animals are capable of negativity - at least as humans understand it or are.

And, I think the idea of human negative energy creating tornadoes, floods, hurricanes, etc, is absurd. Too many times the most innocent people or countries with immense problems are greatly harmed by nature while what some might consider more advanced countries and 'dens of inequity' remain untouched. And the idea of cancer being caused by negative energy is simply obscene. I have been in cancer wards, seen others so sick it would cause one to weep, people undergoing years of having toxic medicines pumped into their veins - yet so full of light and life it is both humbling and revelatory.

I don't blame God but I certainly don't blame man or animals for natural disasters or disease.

 

The point remains though that if God is 'involved in nature and natural events' then one could blame God for human suffering caused by those events.

Like I said, I don't ness. believe these things myself. I've just met some folks who do. Sometimes I wonder though, if humans really do have dominion on this earth, if we couldn't all do a bit more praying or wishing that these things don't happen. I certainly would never blame a person for getting sick or getting cancer or something, I think that would be truly sick.

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On 8/6/2020 at 4:54 PM, Pipiripi said:

God is the source of life, God doesn't need to intervene in His creation. It is better to ask God about His creation. 

There are a good number of Christians that believe in both Christ and evolution. It's not an either - or question. Consider the following video, given by a Bishop, who is also a bestseller writer. One doesn't need to give up one's faith or belief in God to see what is really happening and being learned in science. 

 

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22 hours ago, Pipiripi said:

Thank you, but for me, I cannot stop giving you Jesus Paul. I'm not like Jerry. I am like Jesus of NAZARETH, the Son of the LIVING GOD.  Everybody say!! AMEN.

Thanks Pipiripi, but I have been where you are now, and I now know it is not for me.  Peace and goodwill.

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On 2/22/2020 at 2:40 AM, Burl said:
On 2/21/2020 at 10:37 PM, PaulS said:

I have only a passing interest in speculating if God created man by using evolution.  I am not an anthropologist and 200k years is a terribly long time ago.

I am interested in the bible as one of our oldest literary creations and the cornerstone of our civilization.  I want to read it as accurately and as deeply as possible and try to determine what information those people who lived only 5k years ago intended to be preserved and passed on to me.  That is something I can confidently achieve.

How should I treat others?  How can I maintain and increase a conscious connection with God?  What pleasures seem attractive but turn into vices and lead into degeneracy and desperation?  How can I uplift others?  How can I live  fulfilled & content, and how can I face death without fear?

Those are some of my interests, and natural selection does not provide a source of inspiration.

Or  -  if it might  -  how?   What inspiration do you draw from that well?
 

MLK-and-his-Bible1-300x201.jpg
The Hammer of Freedom

My friend go in here. Only a few can understand it. end-times-prophecy.org 

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18 minutes ago, Pipiripi said:

My friend go in here. Only a few can understand it. end-times-prophecy.org 

One of the principles of this site is that the bible is NOT to be interpreted literally or as history.

It really does not promote the literalist interpretation you express, so I’m a bit puzzled by that.

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18 hours ago, Pipiripi said:

My friend go in here. Only a few can understand it. end-times-prophecy.org 

I tend to think of "the end of times" or the in breaking of the Kingdom of Heaven as something that started with Jesus. It's the end of a kind of worldliness and worldly thinking or a worldly reality that is ending and new reality and way of looking at the world that was starting. It's not "the end of the world" but an end of a kind or worldly thinking and reality that is/was ending.

This may happen to different individuals and or communities at different times in history and or in our own lives.

People have been saying "it's the end of the world" and in our generation, for like forever. (I think that someone else has already mentioned this on this thread). Perhaps they are looking for the wrong sort of events to be happening.

Jesus is quoted as saying, "The Kingdom of Heaven is within you", "That the Kingdom of Heaven comes in a way that cannot be seen", and that, "The Kingdom of Heaven is scattered among you and people do not see it". This is a far different type of transformation, than the end of the world happening one day, and a whole entire new world arriving the next.

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1 hour ago, Elen1107 said:

I tend to think of "the end of times" or the in breaking of the Kingdom of Heaven as something that started with Jesus. It's the end of a kind of worldliness and worldly thinking or a worldly reality that is ending and new reality and way of looking at the world that was starting. It's not "the end of the world" but an end of a kind or worldly thinking and reality that is/was ending.

This may happen to different individuals and or communities at different times in history and or in our own lives.

In my view, there is much truth in this statement above. It seems to me some confuse it as being the same time for everyone which is to me, far from what has been revealed to me. The coming of Christ is present tense and in time different for each of us.

A past post of mine ......

 

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1 hour ago, JosephM said:

In my view, there is much truth in this statement above. It seems to me some confuse it as being the same time for everyone which is to me, far from what has been revealed to me. The coming of Christ is present tense and in time different for each of us.

A past post of mine ......

 

Wow, it seems that we are pretty much on the same page regarding this subject.

It's good to see common agreement and a common/similar feeling on something when this happens.

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2 hours ago, Elen1107 said:

I tend to think of "the end of times" or the in breaking of the Kingdom of Heaven as something that started with Jesus. It's the end of a kind of worldliness and worldly thinking or a worldly reality that is ending and new reality and way of looking at the world that was starting. It's not "the end of the world" but an end of a kind or worldly thinking and reality that is/was ending.

This may happen to different individuals and or communities at different times in history and or in our own lives.

People have been saying "it's the end of the world" and in our generation, for like forever. (I think that someone else has already mentioned this on this thread). Perhaps they are looking for the wrong sort of events to be happening.

Jesus is quoted as saying, "The Kingdom of Heaven is within you", "That the Kingdom of Heaven comes in a way that cannot be seen", and that, "The Kingdom of Heaven is scattered among you and people do not see it". This is a far different type of transformation, than the end of the world happening one day, and a whole entire new world arriving the next.

I would agree with the first sentence, especially from our perspective. However Jesus still announced 'a soon to come' establishment of the Kingdom by God. Moreover, I'm not sure God's Kingdom (in the understanding of Jesus and the Jews) was a 'new way of looking at the world that was starting' because when God established the Kingdom, there would no longer be a realty other than his Kingdom (no more other kingdoms or kings) and in the very establishment it wasn't starting, rather it was already accomplished, it was already done.

I'm curious now because it seems like the expected Kingdom, preached by Jesus, would be done in a flash yet there seems also to be the acknowledgement that the Gentile nations would worship the true God.........so was all accomplished instantly by God or was there a delay until the Gentiles worshipped him, and if there was a delay, did that limit God's power and ability to establish his Kingdom?

Regardless, when the Kingdom was not established and time (and other kingdoms) marched on, there was a rethinking about a 'realized eschatology' that had or could begin with faith in Jesus (that began with Jesus). And this would definitely require an ending and a new beginning. I think this part is perfectly valid from our perspective and it is what happened in the early communities.

 

Allison point out that the 'end of days' (God's Kingdom) like the beginning of days (Genesis) is mythological language (not to be taken literally) for us, however he admits that it seems that Jesus and his peers took it literally.

 

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1 hour ago, JosephM said:

The coming of Christ is present tense and in time different for each of us.

I agree with this as 'our' realized eschatology and the beginning of living of the Kingdom or God in the individual.

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14 minutes ago, thormas said:

I'm curious now because it seems like the expected Kingdom, preached by Jesus, would be done in a flash yet there seems also to be the acknowledgement that the Gentile nations would worship the true God.........so was all accomplished instantly by God or was there a delay until the Gentiles worshipped him, and if there was a delay, did that limit God's power and ability to establish his Kingdom?

 

I don't really see the "done in a flash" thing as being a real part of reality. Even some of the apostles didn't seem to 'get it' well into Christ's ministry. Paul in his letters talks about people going through a transition and needing time to change and essentially put on a new way of thinking and believing. Though Paul is writing to Gentiles, there's no reason to believe that Jewish people didn't need some time to change and adjust also.

14 minutes ago, thormas said:

Regardless, when the Kingdom was not established and time (and other kingdoms) marched on, there was a rethinking about a 'realized eschatology' that had or could begin with faith in Jesus (that began with Jesus). And this would definitely require an ending and a new beginning. I think this part is perfectly valid from our perspective and it is what happened in the early communities.

 

There's no reason why someone who was living in the Kingdom of God, couldn't be standing next to and talking to someone who was living and thinking in the kingdom of Caesar. The first person could be going home to a community where everyone was sharing (both the work and the goods) and everyone was being treated equally, while the second person was going home to a community where there was no or very little sharing of goods and work and no one or not many people were being treated as equal.

Today you could have one person living under the English Crown, talking to a person living under the American Presidency, and another who is in the Kingdom of  Heaven, all living and thinking with different priorities, ideas and values. How close these are to each other and where they might overlap is another question.

I've looked at some intentional communities, how close these each might come to a true kingdom of heaven is another question also.

Just because other kingdoms and governments of different types have marched on through time, doesn't mean that the kingdom of heaven isn't still there and still growing and existing, (though it might not get in the news or be reported in famous histories, it doesn't mean it isn't still there in some form or another).

Paul talked about "don't live in the world" (I take this as meaning don't live in worldly ideas and priorities), at the same time he said Christians could not avoid or not encounter the "world" entirely. I guess the thing was just not to get sucked or drawn into worldly thinking and behaviors.

15 minutes ago, thormas said:

Allison point out that the 'end of days' (God's Kingdom) like the beginning of days (Genesis) is mythological language (not to be taken literally) for us, however he admits that it seems that Jesus and his peers took it literally.

 

I might be thinking of the end of days as meaning the end of an era, and the beginning of days as the beginning of an era, which to me is what happened in the days when Christ first came and walked upon this earth.

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