On Judgement

[JosephM]

7 hours ago, PaulS said:

Thanks for sharing, Joseph.

How does not judging others fit for you when it comes to our criminal justice system?  Do you see that as a different sort of judgement and if so, can you maybe explain.

Paul,

I moved your post to this from sermons thread as that is not the place for dialog so i will answer it here. (JosephM)

When one is put in a place of judgement such as a job to sit as judge for alleged criminals it is not in the spirit of self judgement. Although it is possible that a judge might use that spirit if he is not careful to separate himself from the job.  IE: Jesus didn't tell the soldiers to give up their jobs nor the publicans that came to him but rather it is recorded in Luke 3:12-14 

Then came also publicans to be baptized, and said unto him, Master, what shall we do? 13 And he said unto them, Exact no more than that which is appointed you. 14 And the soldiers likewise demanded of him, saying, And what shall we do? And he said unto them, Do violence to no man, neither accuse any falsely; and be content with your wages.

To those in the criminal justice system it seems to me he would have advised similarly to do the job they were appointed to do honestly, and impartially without hate, anger or malice.

[PaulS]

12 hours ago, JosephM said:

Paul,

I moved your post to this from sermons thread as that is not the place for dialog so i will answer it here. (JosephM)

When one is put in a place of judgement such as a job to sit as judge for alleged criminals it is not in the spirit of self judgement. Although it is possible that a judge might use that spirit if he is not careful to separate himself from the job.  IE: Jesus didn't tell the soldiers to give up their jobs nor the publicans that came to him but rather it is recorded in Luke 3:12-14 

Then came also publicans to be baptized, and said unto him, Master, what shall we do? 13 And he said unto them, Exact no more than that which is appointed you. 14 And the soldiers likewise demanded of him, saying, And what shall we do? And he said unto them, Do violence to no man, neither accuse any falsely; and be content with your wages.

To those in the criminal justice system it seems to me he would have advised similarly to do the job they were appointed to do honestly, and impartially without hate, anger or malice.

Joseph - is it possible for you to shift it again & put it in its own discussion thread in Debate & Dialogue instead of inserting it into this thread initiated by Burl's on a different topic.  Apologies, I haven't mastered doing that yet.

[JosephM]

Done. (JosephM)

[PaulS]

On 9/13/2019 at 12:00 PM, JosephM said:

Done. (JosephM)

Now I don't seem to be able to find your original post on Judgement.  Am I missing something?

[JosephM]

You can reference it    ----->HERE ..... It was not meant to comment on in sermons

 

[PaulS]

On 9/12/2019 at 9:11 PM, JosephM said:

When one is put in a place of judgement such as a job to sit as judge for alleged criminals it is not in the spirit of self judgement. Although it is possible that a judge might use that spirit if he is not careful to separate himself from the job.  IE: Jesus didn't tell the soldiers to give up their jobs nor the publicans that came to him but rather it is recorded in Luke 3:12-14 

Then came also publicans to be baptized, and said unto him, Master, what shall we do? 13 And he said unto them, Exact no more than that which is appointed you. 14 And the soldiers likewise demanded of him, saying, And what shall we do? And he said unto them, Do violence to no man, neither accuse any falsely; and be content with your wages.

To those in the criminal justice system it seems to me he would have advised similarly to do the job they were appointed to do honestly, and impartially without hate, anger or malice.

It's just that I don't see 'forgiveness' as being present in our legal system.  So I was asking from that perspective how you see it tying in with your understanding of forgiveness as preached by Jesus.  Our culture appoints judges and magistrates as substitutes for us in passing judgement.  I agree they don't make their judgements in the spirit of self-judgement, but is that a flaw in the process because our culture has allowed such to develop that way?

[JosephM]

On 9/19/2019 at 6:47 PM, PaulS said:

It's just that I don't see 'forgiveness' as being present in our legal system.  So I was asking from that perspective how you see it tying in with your understanding of forgiveness as preached by Jesus.  Our culture appoints judges and magistrates as substitutes for us in passing judgement.  I agree they don't make their judgements in the spirit of self-judgement, but is that a flaw in the process because our culture has allowed such to develop that way?

Forgiveness doesn't negate choices and consequences. Forgiveness sees the humanity and capability for poor choices in all of us. It sees mans internal battle with the lusts of the flesh,  the lusts of the eyes and the pride of life which are heavily influenced by conditioning  and chooses to withhold personal judgement on things because one see the same potential in all of us. When we see clearly it is my experience that if i were born with the same exact genetics,  life experiences etc. etc. i would be no different than the other.

[PaulS]

7 hours ago, JosephM said:

Forgiveness doesn't negate choices and consequences. Forgiveness sees the humanity and capability for poor choices in all of us. It sees mans internal battle with the lusts of the flesh,  the lusts of the eyes and the pride of life which are heavily influenced by conditioning  and chooses to withhold personal judgement on things because one see the same potential in all of us. When we see clearly it is my experience that if i were born with the same exact genetics,  life experiences etc. etc. i would be no different than the other.

But lots of people commit crimes without really making a 'choice', perhaps they are drug addled, or have mental difficulties (but not enough to get them off the crime) etc.  Like you say, if you had been born with the same exact genetics, life experiences etc, you would be no different.  So doesn't it seem a little unfair that because of genetics and the lottery of life experiences, that we judge these others for their actions, which you acknowledge would be you but for nothing but fortune?

[JosephM]

2 hours ago, PaulS said:

But lots of people commit crimes without really making a 'choice', perhaps they are drug addled, or have mental difficulties (but not enough to get them off the crime) etc.  Like you say, if you had been born with the same exact genetics, life experiences etc, you would be no different.  So doesn't it seem a little unfair that because of genetics and the lottery of life experiences, that we judge these others for their actions, which you acknowledge would be you but for nothing but fortune?

Society sets up its rules/laws for its people to live by. That is its function. Forgiveness doesn't judge . Choices when operating in society has consequences. Fair / unfair is subjective and relative. Knowing this we live by the wisdom granted us for whatever reason , withhold personal judgement , walk in the spirit of forgiveness and make choices in relation to that wisdom given us .  I do not fault the other who has not yet evolved to the consciousness level  of Love for all. Wisdom tells me to help those who are ready and i have been given the power to help, avoid those that are motivated by levels of consciousness that  are far from the spirit of Love and are not seeking help, and leave earthly judgement to society rules and those placed in a power to do so.

[Burl]

Forgiveness is predicated upon judgment.  It takes a lot of painful effort to forgive and achieve freedom from resentment.

It is very common for people to simply deny their judgment and repress their emotions on the pretext of forgiveness or universal love.  
 

[romansh]

Judgement has two broad uses (at least I suppose)

1.  Classifying things into good and bad (perhaps evil)
2.  Simply an evaluation

In the second case forgiveness is not needed and the first is predicated on people having free will. 

For the evaluation sense … I have a desire … and will someone's actions help achieve that desire. Now some might object to said desire, but then they can't help themselves.