This Is How We Roll

[geekforlife]

Well, This is my first post so bare with with me.

 

 

I'll introduce myself, I'm from the "great" state of North Carolina, even better I'm from the eastern part of the state. I'm 24 and getting ready for round 2 of the great battle of graduating from college(my spelling has greatly in proved). Anyway a couple of days ago I caught wind of not to far down the road in Waynesville, N.C. a preacher in some Baptist Church booted members from the church for not voting for ol dubya, and for voting for John Kerry. Not to scare anyone but around where I live you hear that crap all the time. People putting politics in the pulpit. Just wanted to hear what yall had to say.

 

peace out yall,

 

 

Jason

[Lndz123]

Hey Geek

 

I totally agree with that. There has been TOO much of a mix of politics and religion these past few years; while I AM a devout Baptist lady, I believe there's a time and place for your religion. YES, this Country was founded on a single "God" but let's not forget that every single religion has a "God" and I think that's why our forefather's put only that phrase. Remember folks, they came here for religous freedom!

 

"And the irony of it all is, the people that helped vote this very fool in office (the bush) claim to be "Christians" and peacemakers. What with this un-called for war and death it's brought. Jesus was a peacemaker remeber?

 

I do believe there's a passage in the bible that states, "blessed be the peacemakers (meek) for they shall inherit the Earth!"

 

They claim that Bush is our "Christian" President! This is just TOO funny

You CANNOT mix Religion and Politics! Read more about that here.. By being the President of the U.S., your duties include governing over ALL sorts of people with different religions. NOT just Christianity. A principle our Country was founded on... Religious Freedom! I wonder how the Citizens of this country that work and pay their taxes JUST like the so called "Christians" feel about Bush. I would be willing to bet my RIGHT hand that most of them don't care for him. Most of them would say, "I can't relate to this man. He doesn't even attempt to understand me (different religions) so why should I care about him?

 

It's totally understandable.... the solution is simple. We need to get religion back outta politics - We need the help of other Countries for Iraq (including the UN!)

And we need to QUIT giving rich Americans so many tax breaks, they don't deserve it and should pay up just like every other hard working American!

 

And a good solution to the social security problem is they should stop using the extra payments (they get extra every few years) and save it in accounts for years that you are behind in funds. The government isn't very good at saving money. I know first hand, my husband was in the military for 6 years. Boy that sure was fun!

 

Good luck w/ your posting Geek and look forward to hearing from you!

 

Lindsey -- My site -- Beware of Bush

Edited May 11, 2005 by Lndz123

[FredP]

Hold on though -- my UCC church sometimes puts liberal politics in the pulpit. Should we not be allowed to do that? If so, who's to say which should be allowed and which shouldn't? (Granted, my church wouldn't kick you out if you voted for Dubya, that's probably a good example of the illegitimate mix of politics and religion!)

 

I'm worried about saying "Take religion out of politics" because it begs the question, What is a good or bad mix of politics and religion? Bush's mix, we'd probably all want to say, is pretty bad. But what about Martin Luther King's? Was it wrong of him to appeal to religious claims in making the case for equality during the Civil Rights Movement? I know this book comes up a lot around here, but Jim Wallis's God's Politics really makes a strong case that the Democrats really need to reappropriate a legitimate use of religion in their political platform. By failing to appreciate the religious values of liberals, he claims many undecided people are settling for the conservative approach to politics, because at least they acknowledge that religious claims are important.

[Lndz123]

Fred p, there shouldn't be ANY TYPE of government issues discussed in a place of worship. Whether it be LIBERAL or CONSERVATIVE! That house belongs to GOD, not the US government and the two shouldn't even be compared or discussed together AT ALL. It's just common sense... when government and religion start mixing, you have all sorts of things going wrong. Just like they are now in Washington and all across America for that fact.

 

Our LEADERS SHOULDN'T discuss a "particular" religion, especially when they are supposedly addressing a Nation of MANY religions! Our leaders represent a vast majority of different people with different ideas and understandings. The idea of another religion SHOULD NEVER be imposed onto someone. And who's the imposing leader you may ask? Bush is the #1 guy!

 

Children attending school get ridicule from other children because they are "Jewish" or "Muslims." This is b/s and is SO sad! Their parents (mostly bush lovers) feed them with this propoganda that you're not as good as the other person if you don't believe in Jesus and THEIR GOD. This is just absurd. The Bible teaches that ANYONE can be forgiven. I don't "look down" on my Jewish neighbor because they believe differently than me. Everyone was brought up a different way so don't be so quick to judge. That's God's job remember? They can't help that's what they've been taught since the day they were born! Imagine someone telling you YOUR religion is wrong and you aren't a good person because of that? I would never "judge" someone according to their beliefs and I hope they would do the same.

 

Democrats DO NOT discuss religion that much because they understand this, they understand THEIR JOB is to not only look out for Christians, but ALL Americans. It doesn't matter if a group of people believe in a cow! Their job isn't to try and convert... it's to understand and work for solutions for our great Country.

 

Kerry DID use religion somewhat in his politics. NOT to the degree the bush did but he def. did use it! I heard Kerry throw out some Bible passages and even talk of his days as a Catholic altar boy. I don't think I've EVER heard bush mutter a Bible passage! I think he's using it to HIS advantage and it's just anothe one of his political strategies. I just don't feel he is sincere. AND if he is using Christianity as a political strategy, he should be ashamed of himself.

 

Either way, doesn't matter his religous beliefs. Are you saying that someone may not be as "qualified" for the job if he/she isn't a Christian? I guess that's what the majority of Americans are going towards. ? But it's a MESSED up reason. You're voting for a GOVERNMENT politician! Do you HONESTLY think any of them are truly good people? hahahahah! If you think that, then you have a BIG awakening coming.

 

And about Martin Luther King's approach to using God in his speeches... He (King) was fighting for civil rights. He WAS a preacher! He was fighting for understanding, love and togetherness and RIGHTS for black Americans. All the principles of good Christian belief. He wasn't the President of the US and I'm SURE he didn't try and IMPOSE his beliefs onto anyone. If "God" was the extent of his mixing religion and politics then he did a fairly well job at it. He didn't "poke" fun at other religions or anything of the sort.

 

I quote the bush:

"I couldn't imagine somebody like Osama bin Laden understanding the joy of Hanukkah." —at a White House menorah lighting ceremony, Washington, D.C., Dec. 10, 2001

 

That isn’t that mans religion! I DON’T UNDERSTAND the joy of Hanukkah! I’m a Baptist therefore, I celebrate Christmas. I understand that some folks get joy from Hanukkah (my husband worked at a Chaplains office in Texas that was ran by a Rabbi, the guy was the most upbeat, understanding, intelligent guy) but people that aren’t that religion USUALLY don’t celebrate a different religions holiday. The bush is just weird! And I’m not putting Jews down at ALL! I just simply think that the bush has NO CLUE what he’s talking about. How is he FIT to run our Country when he can’t even think of the right words to say? God be with this great Country and hopefully one day it’ll be back in the hands of a true American Patriot.

Edited May 11, 2005 by Lndz123

[FredP]

Our LEADERS SHOULDN'T discuss a "particular" religion, especially when they are supposedly addressing a Nation of MANY religions!  Our leaders represent a vast majority of different people with different ideas and understandings.  The idea of another religion SHOULD NEVER be imposed onto someone.  And who's the imposing leader you may ask?  Bush is the #1 guy! 

You don't have to exclude religions to talk about particular ones. To bring up Martin Luther King again (which you didn't respond to at all), he invoked religion to talk about equality and freedom, without anyone ever supposing that he was shoving the Baptist Church (which was a member of) down anyone's throats. That's the difference.

 

Children attending school get ridicule from other children because they are "Jewish" or "Muslims."  This is b/s and is SO sad!

Of course it is! But if religion is invoked inclusively, it doesn't lead to this.

 

Democrats DO NOT discuss religion that much because they understand this, they understand THEIR JOB is to not only look out for Christians, but ALL Americans.  It doesn't matter if a group of people believe in a cow!  Their job isn't to try and convert... it's to understand and work for solutions for our great Country. 

I keep wondering why you keep equating "discussing religion" with "only looking out for Christians" or "imposing" one religion on everyone?

 

Either way, doesn't matter his religous beliefs.  Are you saying that someone may not be as "qualified" for the job if he/she isn't a Christian?

Have I come even close to implying this? What I've said is that it's appropriate for politicians to appeal to beliefs and sentiments that form the religious and spiritual core of humanity (MLK on equality, for example), rather than continue to address the nation as if these beliefs and sentiments didn't exist. One doesn't have to be exclusivistic about particular religions to appeal to human ideals by means of them.

 

I think that too often, the "religionless" political sphere just ends up fortifying our "cultural religion," which at the moment is scientific naturalism. Political voices like King rightly challenged that limited view and used more human images, such as that all God's children should be able to live together equally in freedom. Was he imposing Christianity on America by saying this?

[Lndz123]

Actually.... I responded about King. You barely gave me time to get my post down!

 

King was a preacher. He preached for human rights and equality. Something the bible DOES speak of and says is right and just. He HAD to go through the Government because at the TIME, they decide if African American's went to public schools, rode on a bus or even drank out of the same water fountain as white people. He didn't PIN POINT a religion, he said "GOD" in his speeches. Next time, read ALL of my reply before you hastily post another. King was an intelligent man, let's not go comparing his method to the bush.

 

Of course it is! But if religion is invoked inclusively, it doesn't lead to this.

 

Invoked inclusively? How has bush invoked it inclusively? He's pin pointed HIS religion and seems to bring it up whenever he has the chance. Or are you even talking about the bush? I agree, Christianity SHOULD NOT be forced onto anyone - they should have the FREEDOM to choose whatever they want to believe! And by not PUSHING it into everyone's face with this new "FAD" the republican party seems to be developing across America. That's wrong and should be stopped! Do you Fred, need someone in your face yelling "believe in what I believe in, that makes it right!" I don't and I would hope you don't as well. My beliefs are strong and NO politician will ever change that.

 

I keep wondering why you keep equating "discussing religion" with "only looking out for Christians" or "imposing" one religion on everyone?

 

Equating discussing religion with "imposing" it on everyone? I think that religion can be a beautiful thing but there is a TIME AND PLACE for everything my friend! And the CHURCH is not a place for POLITICAL agenda's as well as OUR WHITE HOUSE is not a place for RELIGIOUS talk. I feel that is has been "imposed" on Americans through the bush admin and that is wrong! I would rather my children learn about good, love and peace through my pastor rather than a MONEY, grubbing, war loving little man!

 

I said: Either way, doesn't matter his religous beliefs. Are you saying that someone may not be as "qualified" for the job if he/she isn't a Christian?

 

You replied with: Have I come even close to implying this? What I've said is that it's appropriate for politicians to appeal to beliefs and sentiments that form the religious and spiritual core of humanity (MLK on equality, for example), rather than continue to address the nation as if these beliefs and sentiments didn't exist.

 

You came close in your above paragraph and here:

I'm worried about saying "Take religion out of politics" because it begs the question, What is a good or bad mix of politics and religion?

I think a GOOD mix of politics is when you mention a "GOD." Don't start saying Christianity this and christianity that. There's MILLIONS of Americans out there who aren't Christian! *wow* Imagine that...

 

Basically, it's ok to use the word "GOD" because AS I STATED BEFORE, all religions have a "GOD!" But to pin point certain religions and make them seem like they're the one everyone should believe in is WRONG WRONG WRONG!

 

Nobody cares which God bush believes in! He doesn't show his love for humanity and compassion and understanding like the bible teaches.

 

He starts wars for profits and doesn't try and negotiate with anyone! He doesn't take in other Countries opinions and doesn't exemplify his religous beliefs!

 

Now I ask, why do you care if bush uses Christianity in his politics? What good has come from it? Not much!

 

 

Political voices like King rightly challenged that limited view and used more human images, such as that all God's children should be able to live together equally in freedom. Was he imposing Christianity on America by saying this?

 

Yes he did use more of a human perspective and he did SHOW THAT WE ALL are God's children and everyone's perspective(no MATTER WHAT RELIGION!) should be taken into account. Don't try and switch this up on me by using Martin Luther King. He was a Southern, civil rights activist, baptist preacher NOT the President of the US.

Edited May 11, 2005 by Lndz123

[FredP]

At the end of the day, we're not really disagreeing that much, I just like to be argumentative. Ask anyone. If I've given any indication that I approve of Bush's use of religion in politics, please correct that misunderstanding right now! A legitimate use of religion is a uniting, inclusive one, not a partisan one. It is absolutely no place for a political leader to be proselytizing for a religion. The King example (yes, he was a preacher, but he took his preaching to the political sphere for political change) was just to say it's possible to use it in this way as a politician.

[FredP]

Sorry, for whatever reason I never saw the end of your post where you responded about MLK. Either I was too eager, or my computer was wigging out!

[Lndz123]

Right, you CAN use religion in politics but only in an intelligent, insightful way. And you shouldn't harp on it, it should be used sparingly not thrown around like confetti. It's a delicate subject and should be discusseed with care. Like King did, he discussed it in a way that would not offend people. I'm sure he had a LARGE following of African American muslims. He was FOR ALL people, Bush is for a select few.

 

Religion in politics is possible but very tricky. There is where bush fails to get it. Anything half way complicated that man is clueless. And that's my point. Did not mean to attack you but I am very passionate about BOTH subjects and I may have taken you the wrong way. I appologize if I did and hope you saw my "pov" as well.

[FredP]

I was serious though -- if you're passionate about this topic, do read Jim Wallis' God's Politics: Why the Right Gets It Wrong and the Left Doesn't Get It. He'll be theologically more conservative than most of us here, but socially and politically and economically progressive. Very worthwhile reading.

[geekforlife]

Well, yall the reason i said keep the politics out of religion is that where I live most folks say you can't be a liberal and still be a christian. That kind of talk has no place in church. The christian coalition meets every tuesday at the Bern resturant and I've seen them tell people about that liberals are the biggest threat to the nation I've witnessed this, when I walk downtown some kid is trying to evangelize to me and when I tell him my progressive views he/she pretty much says I'm going to hell. So there you go.

 

 

peace out

 

Jason

[Cynthia]

Gee Jason - I always imagine looking at people and saying, "wow. I bet Jesus is proud of you right now"

 

There are some comforting scriptures... something along the lines of: there will be those who cry lord, lord and I will say, I have never known you.

 

 

The level of anger and surety I feel about the wrongness of the bush, and all that goes with him... when I am meditating.... and in a good place.... makes me realize that my fanaticism is much the same as "theirs"... so back to Thich Nhat Hanh... we are all the same. Then I go throw up.

[BrotherRog]

This just in.. from http://www.au.org

 

NORTH CAROLINA PASTOR WHO ENDORSED POLITICAL CANDIDATES RESIGNS PULPIT

Incident Underscores Dangers Of Immersing Houses Of Worship In Political Activity, Says Church-State Watchdog Group

 

A North Carolina pastor who drew national attention for partisan politicking in the pulpit resigned last night.

 

The incident, says Americans United for Separation of Church and State, illustrates the danger of mixing partisan political activity with churches.

 

According to news accounts, Pastor Chan Chandler of the East Waynesville Baptist Church in Waynesville, N.C., resigned during a meeting Tuesday evening. Reportedly, some of Chandler's supporters left the church with him.

 

Chandler's resignation came on the day after Americans United reported the church to the Internal Revenue Service, asserting that his endorsements of candidates from the pulpit violate the Internal Revenue Code. AU filed the complaint May 9.

 

"The developments at this church clearly show the result of pulpit-based electioneering," said the Rev. Barry W. Lynn, executive director of Americans United. "It leads to ill will among congregants and divides congregations. This incident illustrates perfectly why our houses of worship should refrain from telling people whom to vote for."

 

Nine members of the Waynesville church say they were forced out of the congregation for defying Chandler's order to support the reelection of President George W. Bush and refrain from voting for Democrats.

 

Chandler's actions had been controversial for some time. Some members complained that most of his sermons were political. Several newspapers and television stations reported that on Oct. 3, 2004, Chandler told his congregation, "If you vote for John Kerry, you need to repent or resign." Church members told the media that prior to the election, Chandler frequently endorsed Bush from the pulpit and attacked Kerry.

 

AU's Lynn noted that a bill pending in Congress would lift the IRS ban on pulpit politicking and encourage actions like Chandler's. The Houses of Worship Free Speech Restoration Act (H.R. 235) is sponsored by U.S. Rep. Walter B. Jones (R-N.C.),

 

"If we want more churches fractured along political lines, then the Jones bill is the way to go," Lynn said. "The sad controversy in North Carolina should spell the end of this misguided measure."

======================================

 

Clearly, more pastors and religious leaders need to be educated about what lines they should not cross - unless they're willing to give up their tax exempt status. Organizations such as the Interfaith Alliance; Americans United for the Separation of Church & State; and the ACLU do their best, but many churches (mostly conservative) won't even open mail from such groups.

 

These organizations are "equal opportunity." They have petitioned the Government to investigate liberal congregations as well as conservative ones who they understand have crossed the line.

 

BTW, congregations MAY invite politicians and candidates to speak at their churches, but if they do, they have to extend the same invitation to their rivals (other party's candidate, etc).

 

See the following link for the details as to what churches can and cannot do if they wish to maintain their tax-exempt status:

http://www.irs.gov/charities/charitable/ar...=120703,00.html

[jamesAMDG]

So, it would seem that laziness couldn't keep me away for too long.

 

I think there are several ideas which have been talked about in this thread are worth commenting on.

 

Lndz123 said

 

And about Martin Luther King's approach to using God in his speeches... He (King) was fighting for civil rights. He WAS a preacher! He was fighting for understanding, love and togetherness and RIGHTS for black Americans. All the principles of good Christian belief. He wasn't the President of the US and I'm SURE he didn't try and IMPOSE his beliefs onto anyone. If "God" was the extent of his mixing religion and politics then he did a fairly well job at it. He didn't "poke" fun at other religions or anything of the sort.

 

Yes, Martin Luther King, Jr was a preacher and sure he had a cause that I think we both find noble. But I think you're letting your affection for his cause colour your interpretation of events. Are you saying that religion can only enter politics for the rights of Blacks?

 

Surely, you realise that attempting to change the prevailing political system through the changing of laws (as well as hearts and minds) is in fact attempting to impose (or more gently, teach) your values to others? If he didn't want to convince others of his values he would never have done anything. Convincing someone is imposing your beliefs on someone, especially if you manage to convince enough people (but certainly not the total of a population) into changing laws. I'm sure there are more than a few Klan members who feel pretty darn imposed upon!

 

We can change the argument to the acceptable limits of coercion in politics generally or the role that religion can play in that coercion. But your statement of facts is simply wrong.

 

Our LEADERS SHOULDN'T discuss a "particular" religion, especially when they are supposedly addressing a Nation of MANY religions! Our leaders represent a vast majority of different people with different ideas and understandings. The idea of another religion SHOULD NEVER be imposed onto someone. And who's the imposing leader you may ask? Bush is the #1 guy! dry.gif

 

Children attending school get ridicule from other children because they are "Jewish" or "Muslims." This is b/s and is SO sad! Their parents (mostly bush lovers) feed them with this propoganda that you're not as good as the other person if you don't believe in Jesus and THEIR GOD. This is just absurd. The Bible teaches that ANYONE can be forgiven. I don't "look down" on my Jewish neighbor because they believe differently than me. Everyone was brought up a different way so don't be so quick to judge. That's God's job remember? They can't help that's what they've been taught since the day they were born! Imagine someone telling you YOUR religion is wrong and you aren't a good person because of that? I would never "judge" someone according to their beliefs and I hope they would do the same.

 

If you can find any instances of George W. Bush insisting that other people become Christians I would like to hear/read them.

 

As far as children being teased over religion goes, kids get teased over all sorts fo things at school. It's not particularly good, but kids'll just make fun of the "fatty" next or whatever. Using the schoolyard behaviour of children seems a weak way to support your remark about GW Bush imposing his religion on others. Further, I would like to know where you got the statistics for the assertion that the children of people who voted for GWB are more likely to tease and ridicule other children based on their religion. This is more than a straw man you've constructed here.

 

Lastly, humans can judge (St. John 7.24 comes to mind). The Scriptures clearly state that humans not only can judge, but should judge - but only in exterior actions, as it is God who will judges the thoughts and hearts of others.

 

And the CHURCH is not a place for POLITICAL agenda's as well as OUR WHITE HOUSE is not a place for RELIGIOUS talk

 

Surely, you can agree that discussing political matters in a Church is ok (I would agree that a priest, etc. forcing his congreation to do something is a violation of conscience) But why not discuss politics in a Church? What better place to consider our worldly goals than in the light of our highest ideals?

 

I would rather my children learn about good, love and peace through my pastor rather than a MONEY, grubbing, war loving little man!

 

I think that unless you are/were a personal confidante of the President, that you might have trouble making this not look like a judgement of someone's heart and thoughts.

 

Nobody cares which God bush believes in!

 

You clearly do or you wouldn't devote so much time and space to attacking him.

 

He doesn't take in other Countries opinions and doesn't exemplify his religous beliefs!

 

These two statements are non-sequiters. Neither ha a relatio to the other. But barring that, it is posible to consider someone's opinion and then disagree with it and continue with your original plan of action.

 

He doesn't exemplify what you think is a Christian life. But, if you consider yourself part of the progressive camp and ascribe to the 8 points, You can't really talk smack about the way someone else lives their faith. That would be not allowing them to live "their way to the God realm"

 

Right, you CAN use religion in politics but only in an intelligent, insightful way.

 

But only your way is intelligent and insightful? That seems somewhat conceited.

 

 

geekforlife

 

Well, yall the reason i said keep the politics out of religion is that where I live most folks say you can't be a liberal and still be a christian. That kind of talk has no place in church.

 

Well, I guess it would depend how you define liberal. If you mean it in a classical sense I would say that liberalism and Christianity can be very compatible. If however, you mean the more modern version, with the approval of sinful ways of life and the destruction of the concept of marriage, or the legalisation of murder against the unborn, or the prevailing moral relativism of the elites then I think it is impossible to be a Christian in good conscience while holding those positions.

 

Victory and Peace in the Sacred Heart of Jesus, through the Immaculate Heart of Mary.

 

jAMDG

 

jamesAMDG.blogspot.com

[Lolly]

Chandler's resignation came on the day after Americans United reported the church to the Internal Revenue Service, asserting that his endorsements of candidates from the pulpit violate the Internal Revenue Code. AU filed the complaint May 9.

 

Excellent. It's about time people started using legal recourse to deal with these issues. Of course, at the rate this administration is going, it won't be long before this "loophole" in the law is closed, too.

[FredP]

Surely, you can agree that discussing political matters in a Church is ok (I would agree that a priest, etc. forcing his congreation to do something is a violation of conscience)  But why not discuss politics in a Church?  What better place to consider our worldly goals than in the light of our highest ideals?

This is actually the point I was trying to make in my first reply, but I think James worded it more convincingly. Our religion is where we learn, for example, that we're not just equal in some abstract legal sense, but special and unique by virtue of the divine image we bear. It is also the place where we learn that the capacity for good and evil dwells in each of our hearts, and that no nation has the right to declare its stance and its ideals so uncritically good as GWB has done.

[Lndz123]

Quoting James AMDG “Yes, Martin Luther King, Jr was a preacher and sure he had a cause that I think we both find noble. But I think you're letting your affection for his cause colour your interpretation of events. Are you saying that religion can only enter politics for the rights of Blacks?”

 

Did I in ANY way state that? I didn’t even bring him (King) up in the 1st place…. And I think religion can be used at times, but not MOST of the time. When you’re trying to compare – perhaps that we’re all alike, we’re ALL God’s children (once again GOD, not a specific God…ok?) to show that neither black nor white is the superior race. Perhaps to use religion in that way would not be offensive. Bush crosses the line when he uses it. Here’s a few examples of bush using religion TOO much!

 

“My faith tells me that acceptance of Jesus Christ as my savior is my salvation, and I believe I made it clear that it is not the governor's role to decide who goes to heaven. I believe God decides who goes to heaven, not George W. Bush. “

-- Clarifying his relationship with Creation, Austin, Texas, Dec. 3, 1998

 

“Which isn't the America we know? Fear among Muslim Americans or compassion in the Jewish and Christian communities? I'm confused.” – the bush Town hall meeting, Orlando, Florida, Dec. 4, 2001

 

“But one way is for religion to be introduced - is for me - you know, my heart was changed - one heart at a time, my little old heart.“

Incoherently religious in interview, US News & World Report, Dec. 6, 1999

 

“And if you choose to -- if you believe in the Almighty, you can -- you're equally an American. If you're a Jew, Christian or Muslim or Hindi or whatever. It is one of the great traits and traditions of our country, where people can worship the way you see fit. “

--Quote the bush -- “Hindi is a language spoken in India. A Hindu is an adherent of Hinduism.” Oh well. Interview on Larry King Live (CNN), aired Aug. 15, 2004

 

“One of the great things about this country is a lot of people pray. “

-- I guess we're the only Godly country out there ? Washington, D.C., Apr. 13, 2003 The bush

 

And and HERE’s one of the biggies;

 

“It's so inspirational to see your courage, as well as to see the great works of our Lord in your heart. “ - the bush

-- Speaking on behalf of all Americans in a manner that is only consistent with the religious beliefs of some, Nashville, Tennessee, Feb. 10, 2003

 

How is that wrong at all? Seem pretty convincing to me…and I can go on ALL day with more and more Bush quotes! There’s pages of him referring NOT only to a “GOD” but to a specific religion “Christianity.” So are you saying to me that YOU think a Christian President should be in office? That they are in some ways “better” than another qualified candidate? I don’t think so! We don’t listen to the president for a sermon, we don’t need him to teach us about Jesus ( you have a Preacher at your local church who gets paid to do that job) and it really upsets me knowing that this man (the bush) can’t even quote BIBLE passages but yet he seems to be the most Christian guy since the Pope! Almost like he’s worshipped by Americans for his beliefs. I don’t judge someone according to what they believe in, where they “think” their going after they die. I judge someone according to their actions, their love for man kind, their desire to help the needy and to change a mind – to teach someone, just as I’m teaching someone reading this now, maybe even yourself. I think bush has showed the world his actions and desires and I think we all agree when I say he isn’t the most compassionate man. “Christianity” taught us love and understanding. Compassion. Something that man (the bush) knows NOTHING of! And it shows everyday…. Want more examples fella?

Quoting James “If you can find any instances of George W. Bush insisting that other people become Christians I would like to hear/read them.”

 

WELL then! Just read above. This was a short reply

 

Quoting James “As far as children being teased over religion goes, kids get teased over all sorts fo things at school. It's not particularly good, but kids'll just make fun of the "fatty" next or whatever. Using the schoolyard behaviour of children seems a weak way to support your remark about GW Bush imposing his religion on others.”

 

True, they do get teased all the time. BUT YOU TELL ME, do you think it hurts a child WORSE when he gets made fun of for his ugly outfit, bad hair cut OR his religion beliefs?! EVEN POLITICAL beliefs now!!! I had a little friend in school once, Katie and she was a Jew. This was when “praying” in school was still acceptable. The teacher broke out in prayer before lunch one day and I remember glancing over at her and watching her stare at everyone, like “what’s going on?” That young child (who are very impressionable at a young age) was wondering what was going on and how come she couldn’t be part of the group participation. That’s not fair to her OR any other kids sitting in that class that aren’t that particular religion. NOW here’s where the GW b/s comes into play…. Christianity has become the new “popular” thing with politics. Especially CONSERVATIVE republicans! Read a few quotes above if you need some reference… My little sister is in kindergarten now and just the other day she told me a little girl came in wearing a Bush sticker! *OH MY GOODNESS!* My mom taught us at a young age not to fall for propaganda like “republicans” throw at you AND I’m sure parents of those “bush lovers” have taught them as well. My mom had Kerry signs up in her yard during the election and these teenagers would walk by every day, she said and pull the signs up. She could see them from her kitchen window. NOW YOU AND I BOTH KNOW! That those kids HAVE NO clue about politics and what’s really going on. They have been taught these things (that REPUBLICANS are right and true Christians and that anything else is UN-AMERICAN and democrats are now the NEW baby killers! ROFL!!) and that’s not fair. They’ve been taught that liberals are bad (just like the guy that started this post is being accused of being “evil” and going to hell because he didn’t “think” like them) non-Christians are evil and almost like they’re part of some “higher” more elite class if they believe in what they believe. I don’t get the republican party at all! They “say” they’re for less government but then turn around and make National ID cards (step shy of installing computer chips in you as a baby) and have a new law every other week. And a tax break for the rich If you’re for a LESS government party, check out the Libertarian party. Their link below:

http://www.lp.org/

 

Take a look at the previous tax bracket Bush was in:

**President George H.W. Bush and Barbara Bush's Taxable Income /taxes paid, in 1991: $654,972 / $204,841 (31.3%)

**President George W. Bush and Laura Bush's Taxable Income /taxes paid, in 2001: $811,100 $250,202 (30.8%)

**President George W. Bush and Laura Bush's Taxable Income in 2003 (the tax cuts DO help!): $822,126 /$227,490 (27.7%)

There’s some PROOF for ya!

 

Quoting James “Lastly, humans can judge (St. John 7.24 comes to mind). The Scriptures clearly state that humans not only can judge, but should judge - but only in exterior actions, as it is God who will judges the thoughts and hearts of others.”

 

You “can” but it’s the ones that see through all the outer b/s that are the true angels. Jesus NEVER “judged” anyone. He forgave people or their sins and even with a prostitute! Mary Magdalene. You CAN do whatever you WANT to do, but it’s those that choose the best way that are really “peacemakers & angels” in God’s eyes – I believe. Just like I could “choose” to just go out and kill someone. But I choose not to. I choose to live my life right and NEVER judge anyone. And even if we DID choose to do bad, our God is a forgiving God. I ask him every day to forgive me of things I've done and thought and to take hate out of my heart. You should do the same.

 

Judge not lest ye be judged...

 

I will live by that! And pray for you.

 

Quoting James “Surely, you can agree that discussing political matters in a Church is ok (I would agree that a priest, etc. forcing his congreation to do something is a violation of conscience) But why not discuss politics in a Church? What better place to consider our worldly goals than in the light of our highest ideals?”

No, I think I speak with most of the folks here when I say NOPE. I don’t think it’s “OK!” It’s wrong, you’re taking up MY time with God to discuss these crooks! I don’t think so…. When I take my children to church, they’re not going to hear about Bush and Dick’s latest profit gain from this war or about how they’re trying to do away with social security. I want them to hear God’s message and learn all about this wonderful religion. I want them to not only learn it but to live it. Practice it. That’s WHY I think you discussing BUSINESS in church is WRONG!

 

Quoting James “I think that unless you are/were a personal confidante of the President, that you might have trouble making this not look like a judgement of someone's heart and thoughts.”

Dude, I can throw a MILLION and ONE things bush has done wrong and admitted to! Don't even go there...this post will turn into a 5 page essay! lol

 

Bush has, just the other day, decided that you and I should pay $1 billion dollars to give services to criminals. Yes, criminals. Illegal aliens are criminals. Their first act in our country was entering it illegally. That makes them criminals. Bush is aiding and abetting them. I'd support impeachment.

 

“Bush has taken over $300,000 from pharmaceutical companies for his Presidential campaign, while the prescription drug approach Bush favors is the same approach supported by the drug industry.”

http://www.flara.org/bushandpharm20sep00.htm

 

"I don't know where bin Laden is. I have no idea and really don't care. It's not that important. It's not our priority." —Quoting Bush in Washington, D.C., March 13, 2002

 

Why doesn’t he care? Perhaps he’s too busy worrying about Iraq… ?

 

Wanna know how much Dick profited from the Iraq war? Bout a BILLION! Visit the link below:

http://www.corpwatch.org/article.php?id=6008

 

After the death of the pope, The Vatican limited the official delegation to five for the trip. WELL, instead of inviting our FORMER PRESIDENT, Jimmy Carter - whom I'm proud to say was GA's first president elect! - the bush invited Laura Bush (boyfriend killer) and Condi Rice. NOW I'm SORRY BUT PRESIDNT CARTER SO much more deserved that spot that Condi Rice OR Laura Bush! And he DID want to go! That man RAN our country! What have those 2 women done lately? NOT MUCH!! SO sadly, President Carter had to sit out the trip to Rome. That man is OLD and may not be around for many more years....DID Condi Rice REALLY have to be as COLD as she was?!

After all, she had NO relationship with that man whatsoever! Probably never even spoke with him. I'm sure Carter had done at least that much....

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/7403576

So SAD!

 

Point is, this administration is COLD! They don't "care" about these other people or their Land. The bush has an agenda and he's looking to fill it before his time runs out. And may I remind you people as well, the bush and friends INC aren't playing with thousands (like we do) NOR even millions! He's playing with BILLIONS!

 

I could go on and on all day but I won’t for now. Your questions are REALLY TOO broad to answer in one reply. I’m sure you're a bull-headed republican (or you sond like you may be? I may be wrong... we'll see I'm soon I'm sure!) that is set in your way, so I don’t know if I’ll even do any good convincing to you but maybe someone reading this will learn. So no, this isn’t a waste of time. Glad I could be here!

 

Quoting James  “You clearly do (care which God bush believes in) or you wouldn't devote so much time and space to attacking him.”

 

Please DO NOT put words into my mouth. I don’t like that too much That’s my whole argument genius, I don’t care which God or religion he is and neither should anyone else. Whomever seems the most qualified for the position, presents his work with careful words and precise THOUGH OUT actions. Bush can’t even spell! How’s he fit to run our Country? LOL,

 

Quoting James “He doesn't exemplify what you think is a Christian life. But, if you consider yourself part of the progressive camp and ascribe to the 8 points, You can't really talk smack about the way someone else lives their faith. That would be not allowing them to live "their way to the God realm"

 

Once again, don’t wanna sound like a skipping record here; but you must not understand. I don’t CARE what kind of religion this man “lives” for. I don’t like him. Period. HE HAS NOT done a good job running our Country and it shows in so many ways. Want all the things he’s done wrong as well James? I can get them for you No problem…

 

I said “Right, you CAN use religion in politics but only in an intelligent, insightful way.”

 

Quoting James “But only your way is intelligent and insightful? That seems somewhat conceited.”

 

Did I say that? DID I SAY IN ANY form my way was right? You’re starting to get on my nerves now…and I think you may just be trying to “pick” me apart. Don’t be so anal dude! I didn’t say “my way” was the right way. I said you must use it (religion) in an intelligent way (not throwing it around like the bush) and insightful (perhaps using “GOD” like MLK did to relate to human rights and the basic comparison that we’re ALL EQUALS!) Like I said before, don’t try and put words in my mouth. I think most people understood me when I made that statement. You must be a republican – they love to play on words people say and make them ugly. =(

 

OH and this is just TOO funny!

 

Quoting James “legalisation of murder against the unborn”

You may “think” that you’re above God in someway, but this will NEVER be stopped. No amount of NEW LAWS (just something else for the government to profit off of and they “claim” to be for less government, remember?) LOL, people can see what’s going on. It’s like murder. You can make it illegal all day but is it really going to stop? Nope. You may live in a “fantasy” world where there’s only life and wonderful things going on BUT here in the REAL WORLD things like that will happen forever. And you are a man anyway! You really don’t even have the right to go there…. Until you squeeze a 7 lb 8 oz HUMAN out one of your bodily organs you shouldn’t discuss this. And I know you’re gonna come back with the “oh it takes a man to make a baby as well!” REALLY?! So I’ll go ahead and say this. This is the man’s work involved in making a child, he gets a hardy, has HOT sex, orgasms and then sits back to relax. ALL joyful things that require NO real work. So like I said, until your body is a barer of a child… don’t even go there dude.

 

Yes, I am a free thinking liberal and I disagree with abortions. I, personally would never do it. I however, am PRO-CHOICE! It’s the individuals choice to decide what happens (not only in a situation like that but throughout life) and your decisions eventually help decide where you spend eternity. OK, your abortions are so bad but statistics show that MOST conservative, republicans are for the death penalty. Once again, you’re not God and you cannot and will not (no matter how hard you try) decide who lives and dies and what all transpires in this GREAT big World. And no, the US isn’t the “WORLD POWER!” That’s what Hitler was going for remember? And that’s not such a good thing… We go with the intent to help but that’s just setting up our soldiers in each and every Country on the face of this planet. I know first hand, B has been to Bosnia, Korea and IRAQ! They’re setting our soldiers up and they don’t just come in and fight the war and leave. OH NO! We’re (US soldiers) are there for good. And if you want proof of my husband being enlisted, that can be provided as well. I’d just hope you’re not that child-like.

 

Have a wonderful, terrific day readers and thanks for reading this far down. Heheh…

 

And I leave you with this excellent quote:

 

“Either write something worth reading, or do something worth writing” Benjamin Franklin

[Lndz123]

Jason -- I HIGHLY doubt you'll go to hell by being a liberal! That's just some propoganda the more "radical" thinkers like to feed you with. And even if there was something evil about being a liberal individual, God is a forgiving God right?

 

[ComradeInChrist]

I don't see how politics can be separated from religion. I don't see how you can separate Jesus' social message from the spiritual one. Jesus calls us to make this world a better place. We may disagree on how to do this, but to do it will require social and political action.

[ArmadilloUCC]

Churches get involved in politics all the time. If churches want to exclude members because of their political stance, then the church shoulld file as a PAC and pay taxes.

[jamesAMDG]

Lndz123 said some things that perhaps she should reconsider. And luckily (sarcasm?) for her, I'm here to help!

 

Here’s a few examples of bush using religion TOO much!

 

“My faith tells me that acceptance of Jesus Christ as my savior is my salvation, and I believe I made it clear that it is not the governor's role to decide who goes to heaven. I believe God decides who goes to heaven, not George W. Bush. “

-- Clarifying his relationship with Creation, Austin, Texas, Dec. 3, 1998

 

“Which isn't the America we know? Fear among Muslim Americans or compassion in the Jewish and Christian communities? I'm confused.” – the bush Town hall meeting, Orlando, Florida, Dec. 4, 2001

 

“But one way is for religion to be introduced - is for me - you know, my heart was changed - one heart at a time, my little old heart.“

Incoherently religious in interview, US News & World Report, Dec. 6, 1999

 

“And if you choose to -- if you believe in the Almighty, you can -- you're equally an American. If you're a Jew, Christian or Muslim or Hindi or whatever. It is one of the great traits and traditions of our country, where people can worship the way you see fit. “

--Quote the bush -- “Hindi is a language spoken in India. A Hindu is an adherent of Hinduism.” Oh well. Interview on Larry King Live (CNN), aired Aug. 15, 2004

 

“One of the great things about this country is a lot of people pray. “

-- I guess we're the only Godly country out there ? Washington, D.C., Apr. 13, 2003 The bush

 

So GWB is using religion too much when he says it's not up to him to decide who goes to Heaven?? Or that it is good that people pray?? SWEET ENOLA GAY!! I can't believe this guy's nerve. Wow, he's so clearly using all that non-specific mention of God and praising religious freedom because he's forcing everyone to become an evangelical! It's so diabolically designed through reverse psychology! Seriiously though, all sarcasm aside, nothing which you posted in even the smallest way alludes to the coercion you have been going on and on about.

 

How is that wrong at all?

 

That's what I'm trying to get you to explain.

 

There’s pages of him referring NOT only to a “GOD” but to a specific religion “Christianity.”

 

He's a Christian, get over it, he'll talk about Christiainty sometimes. In fact, sometimes it's reporters or members of an audience that ask him about it, so he answers the question. Simply noting the existence of a religion by name isn't coercion. And nothing which you have posted demonstrates otherwise. GWB has also spoken at length to defend religious freedom, in fact several of your quotes are about religious freedom.

 

So are you saying to me that YOU think a Christian President should be in office? That they are in some ways “better” than another qualified candidate? I don’t think so! We don’t listen to the president for a sermon, we don’t need him to teach us about Jesus ( you have a Preacher at your local church who gets paid to do that job) and it really upsets me knowing that this man (the bush) can’t even quote BIBLE passages but yet he seems to be the most Christian guy since the Pope! Almost like he’s worshipped by Americans for his beliefs.

 

I think that a Christian head of state is better than a non-Christian head of state. I am a Christian and it would be nice to see my morality (and that of the rest fo the country) represented in the governance fo the country. Representing the majority view is called democracy. I also think that the morality of Christiainity is uperior to that of non Judeo-Christian religions. I am a Christian, remember. If I thought any other religion was more truly inspired by God I would follow it. As an example, let's examine the moral difference between flying jet-liners into skyscrapers into buildings and the bombing of military targets (yes civilian targets get hit, unless you have some suggestion for improving missle technology you must admit that current weapons are more humane than the carpet bombing of World War II, for example). Islam is a religion that has always been comfortable using the sword to expand it's dominion and it hasn't felt any compunction in restricting the rights of non-Muslims living under Muslim governments. There's a term called Dhimmitude, it means that non-Muslims must pay special taxes, cannot build or repair their places of worship and they cannot spread their religions. I think that the US under GWB vastly surpasses the rights given to all under freedom of religion to those given under Islamic governments.

 

True, they do get teased all the time. BUT YOU TELL ME, do you think it hurts a child WORSE when he gets made fun of for his ugly outfit, bad hair cut OR his religion beliefs?! EVEN POLITICAL beliefs now!!! I had a little friend in school once, Katie and she was a Jew. This was when “praying” in school was still acceptable. The teacher broke out in prayer before lunch one day and I remember glancing over at her and watching her stare at everyone, like “what’s going on?” That young child (who are very impressionable at a young age) was wondering what was going on and how come she couldn’t be part of the group participation. That’s not fair to her OR any other kids sitting in that class that aren’t that particular religion. NOW here’s where the GW b/s comes into play…. Christianity has become the new “popular” thing with politics. Especially CONSERVATIVE republicans! Read a few quotes above if you need some reference… wink.gif My little sister is in kindergarten now and just the other day she told me a little girl came in wearing a Bush sticker! *OH MY GOODNESS!* My mom taught us at a young age not to fall for propaganda like “republicans” throw at you AND I’m sure parents of those “bush lovers” have taught them as well. wink.gif My mom had Kerry signs up in her yard during the election and these teenagers would walk by every day, she said and pull the signs up. She could see them from her kitchen window. NOW YOU AND I BOTH KNOW! That those kids HAVE NO clue about politics and what’s really going on. They have been taught these things (that REPUBLICANS are right and true Christians and that anything else is UN-AMERICAN and democrats are now the NEW baby killers! ROFL!!) and that’s not fair. They’ve been taught that liberals are bad (just like the guy that started this post is being accused of being “evil” and going to hell because he didn’t “think” like them) non-Christians are evil and almost like they’re part of some “higher” more elite class if they believe in what they believe. I don’t get the republican party at all! They “say” they’re for less government but then turn around and make National ID cards (step shy of installing computer chips in you as a baby) and have a new law every other week.

 

This is completly unrelated to the question I posed you. I asked if you had any statistics to back your assertions that the children of GWB voters were more likely to tease other children and further, if that teasing was more likely to take the form of religous teasing from a Christian perspective.

 

No, I think I speak with most of the folks here when I say NOPE. I don’t think it’s “OK!” It’s wrong, you’re taking up MY time with God to discuss these crooks! I don’t think so…. When I take my children to church, they’re not going to hear about Bush and Dick’s latest profit gain from this war or about how they’re trying to do away with social security. I want them to hear God’s message and learn all about this wonderful religion. I want them to not only learn it but to live it. Practice it. That’s WHY I think you discussing BUSINESS in church is WRONG!

 

My actually thought was the discussing of politics in a Church. You would do well to note I say that a priest/pastor forcing his congregation to vote a certain way is immoral. Who do you think that morality can be discussed at all in a Church if the worldly/secualr/political consequences are forbidden?

 

Dude, I can throw a MILLION and ONE things bush has done wrong and admitted to! Don't even go there...this post will turn into a 5 page essay! lol

 

1 000 000 001 huh? ok, I'll go there, I would like to see your five pages.

 

After the death of the pope, The Vatican limited the official delegation to five for the trip. WELL, instead of inviting our FORMER PRESIDENT, Jimmy Carter - whom I'm proud to say was GA's first president elect! - the bush invited Laura Bush (boyfriend killer) and Condi Rice. NOW I'm SORRY BUT PRESIDNT CARTER SO much more deserved that spot that Condi Rice OR Laura Bush! And he DID want to go! That man RAN our country! What have those 2 women done lately? NOT MUCH!! SO sadly, President Carter had to sit out the trip to Rome. That man is OLD and may not be around for many more years....DID Condi Rice REALLY have to be as COLD as she was?!

After all, she had NO relationship with that man whatsoever! Probably never even spoke with him. I'm sure Carter had done at least that much....

 

I can'T really say why the President chose to do as he did, I don't hang out with him. But I think you must understand that no one forbade Carter from going. GWB did invite a senior member fo the current administration (Condoleeza Rice), his wife, and the two most recent presidents other than himself, George Bush Sr and Bill Clinton. If excluding Carter was a political decision, I would like to know why Clinton was invited?

 

Did I say that? DID I SAY IN ANY form my way was right? You’re starting to get on my nerves now…and I think you may just be trying to “pick” me apart. Don’t be so anal dude! I didn’t say “my way” was the right way. I said you must use it (religion) in an intelligent way (not throwing it around like the bush) and insightful (perhaps using “GOD” like MLK did to relate to human rights and the basic comparison that we’re ALL EQUALS!) Like I said before, don’t try and put words in my mouth. I think most people understood me when I made that statement

 

You didn't say it explicitly, but it was more than implicit in your post. You attacked GWB for what you called an bad way of using religion and then you praised some people who you thought did it well. Then you retiterated that it was only ok if it was a good way. You didn't offer anything other than the people you agreed with as using religion in an inteliigent way. Your statements begged the question, is it possible to use religion in an intelligent way while having a different point fo view than your own.

 

Want all the things he’s done wrong as well James? I can get them for you wink.gif No problem…

 

Yes please, thanks in advance.

 

You may “think” that you’re above God in someway,

 

Huh? Are you saying that I think I'm above God because I think that abortion is murder? Please clarify this statement.

 

Until you squeeze a 7 lb 8 oz HUMAN out one of your bodily organs you shouldn’t discuss this. And I know you’re gonna come back with the “oh it takes a man to make a baby as well!” REALLY?! So I’ll go ahead and say this. This is the man’s work involved in making a child, he gets a hardy, has HOT sex, orgasms and then sits back to relax. ALL joyful things that require NO real work. So like I said, until your body is a barer of a child… don’t even go there dude.

 

I'm sorry to burst your sexist little bubble, but if abortion is an issue or murder (as I am contending it is) why can a man not be involved? Can no man be involved in discussing rape as it is predominantly a crime where the victims are female?

 

If you really believe that a man is in no way involved in the life of a child other than to have sex with the women you are seriously mistaken. Not only does a man play an obvious role in the conception of the child. But he has a God-given responsibility to help and protect the mother during the pregnancy and to provide for her needs. After the birth, he has that same responsibility but with the inlcusion of the child and his or her protection and support.

 

If you really believe that sex is no more than a joyful physical act you have a great deal of learning to do. Sex is one of the most spiritual things that two human beings can do. While it is certainly (I am told) a wonderful physical sensation, it's also a necessary way in which spouses share their lives and give their love.

 

Lastly, I am not a Republican. I am not a member of any political party and if I were I still wouldn't be a Republican because their ideology would not adequately represent my social views. Even more than all that though, I am a Canadian, so it's a moot point anyways.

 

jamesAMDG

 

Peace and Victory in the Sacred Heart of Jesus through the intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary.

 

jamesAMDG.blogspot.com

[FredP]

Lndz,

 

I sincerely appreciate your enthusiasm on this subject, and I wish more young people were as passionate about what's going on in their country as you are. I have absolutely no love for George W. Bush or the Republican party at large, as I have repeatedly made known.

 

That being said, I hope you can take this in the most charitable way possible. While your posts are strong on enthusiasm, they are also so full of red herrings and non sequiturs (sorry for the philosophical lingo, but it is a debate board), that it's difficult to know quite how to reply. (Thanks to James for trying.) You consistently respond to objections by pasting in copious amounts of quotes, and by making emotional appeals that barely relate to the objection raised. An obvious example: What does elementary school kids teasing each other about religion have to do with anything we're talking about here? You've all but credited Bush's use of Christianity with creating this problem, which is frankly ridiculous; but you seem to think by lots of capital letters and exclamation points, and threats of more, that you are arguing for something.

 

I was a young philosophy major once; I understand the lure of enthusiasm! There's so much afternoon talk show philosophy going on out there, on TV and on the Net. It's so easy to get pulled in. But I also understand that enthusiasm is the best catalyst for change. I ask you, with all the sincerity I can muster, that you channel your enthusiasm into a real rigorous, in-depth study of some of these issues. I've already recommended reading Jim Wallis' God's Politics as a great start. But whatever you do, find some well-argued resources, and really get into them. Raise yourself above all the quote-flinging and bumper sticker politics that goes on out there -- on both sides of the fence. Take your Ben Franklin quote to heart!

 

Fred