Christianity And Taoism

[AletheiaRivers]

Flow,

 

Thanks! I just re-read that post and thought "Sheesh, what WAS I thinking?" I've been reading the website "The Wild Things of God" for the past few days and it has me feeling all mystical. It's an awesome website. Highly recommended. I googled "Theosis" a while back and it led me there.

[flowperson]

AR

 

One of the things I know enough about to be a little dangerous is the basic nature of complex systems and how they operate in the natural world.

 

It's just that your description of the dance of opposites that makes-up the whole perfectly describes the phenomenon, as does the yin/yang illustration that you are so famous for out here in the wild, wild west.

 

They are all constantly changing in dynamically rhythmic patterns; but, they writhe in concert with musical patterns. Protein structures, DNA, ocean currents, wind and weather patterns, plant colonies, herds of animals, flocks of birds flying in the air,; you name it, they do it.

 

And what is needed for dancing? Music of course!!

 

By the way there are some passages in the Gnostic writings that have Jesus dancing in a circle with his disciples. Kind of like Havah Na Nageilah (sp) I suppose? Or maybe the circle of life, hmmmm.

 

Oh, and I am of the opinion that the best things of G-d are wild. That's what mother nature is all about. Our native brothers and sisters believed that it took the marriage of the sky god of time and the wild goddess of earth to make the earth whole and complete in the original time of creation.

 

There is absolutely NOTHING wrong with feeling and being mystical from time to time.

 

Rock on dudette!

 

flow....

Edited November 14, 2005 by flowperson

[jerryb]

I wish I could take credit for that beautiful line, but alas it was actually a quote from a blog I found a while ago.

 

Is is how I see God though: A dance of opposites that rely on each other for their existence, which are not two however, but one. Duality in unity that make up a trinity. I think we are called to join that dance, both now and after death.

 

I listen to the silence too. I listen for the dance, the heartbeat of God, both without and within myself as well.

 

Sheesh, listen to me. I'm waxing poetic. 

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Aletheia,

 

You ARE poetic....don't fight it.

I like what you said about God's heartbeat...maybe that's what we are all missing in our hectic world today. The scripture "Be still and KNOW that I am God" comes to mind. I have come to understand that there is a great difference in BELIEVING

and KNOWING....and I need the feedback of all of you on this board to help me understand that difference.

 

 

GODSPEED MY FRIENDS,

 

Jerryb

[North]

Some forms of Christianity are highly Hellenized, i.e. assimilated Aristotles notions of an "unmoved mover" (omnipotence, omniscience, etc..)

 

However, there are more open-minded schools of thought within Christianity, e.g.;

 

Denver Journal - 5:0301 - Most Moved Mover. A Theology of God's ...Denver Journal - 5:0301 - Most Moved Mover. A Theology of God's Openness.

www.denverseminary.edu/dj/articles2002/0300/0301.php -

 

Amazon.com: Most Moved Mover: A Theology of God's Openness (The ...Amazon.com: Most Moved Mover: A Theology of God's Openness (The Didsbury Lectures): Books by Clark H. Pinnock.

www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ tg/detail/-/0801022908?v=glance 

amazon.com review

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Dr. Greg Boyd (also an proponent) makes that point about the hellenization of Christianity and explores these issues in several of his books. Really enjoyed "Is God to Blame". Makes some remarkable points from scripture and experience. His God is the one we really experience. Some evangelicals (in a sense of the term) were highly offeneded but as Boyd points out, even the strongest proponent of the sovereignty of God still locks their door at night. This is a contradiction for someone who beleives that nothing can happen outside of God's will. I am moving more in the direction of OT, although I was at first disturbed by it.

 

North

[AletheiaRivers]

One of the things I know enough about to be a little dangerous is the basic nature of complex systems and how they operate in the natural world.

 

It's just that your description of the dance of opposites that makes-up the whole perfectly describes the phenomenon, as does the yin/yang illustration that you are so famous for out here in the wild, wild west.

 

It's funny that I spent so much of my adult religious life arguing against the Trinity as being unscriptural, only to become a "Trinitarian" because of science, philosophy, nature. Boy would the elders in my former congregation love to get there hands on me now!

 

There is absolutely NOTHING wrong with feeling and being mystical from time to time.

 

I used to feel mystical all the time and over the past few months I lost it. The past few days have brought it back (thanks Fred for bringing up Kenosis).

 

Kind of like Havah Na Nageilah

 

Oh crap, now I have the naked guy from Monty Python's "Life of Brian" dancing around in my brain! Not exactly the Circle of Life dance you had in mind, eh?

[AletheiaRivers]

Aletheia,

 

You ARE poetic....don't fight it.

I like what you said about God's heartbeat...maybe that's what we are all missing in our hectic world today. The scripture "Be still and KNOW that I am God" comes to mind. I have come to understand that there is a great difference in BELIEVING

and KNOWING....and I need the feedback of all of you on this board to help me understand that difference.

 

 

GODSPEED MY FRIENDS,

 

Jerryb

 

Jerry, run (don't walk) to your nearest Blockbuster Video and rent the movie "Uncorked" with Minnie Driver and Rufus Sewel. The movie is filled with hidden spiritual insights. About 1/3 of the way into the film there is a scene that has something to do with what you said above. I hesistate to say more because I don't want to ruin in for you. The movie isn't an earthshaking spiritual experience, but that one particular scene reached in and grabbed my heart so tightly I couldn't breath.

 

I think "Be still and know that I am God" is my all time favorite scripture. Wow, we do seem to be on the same wavelength.

[FredP]

It's funny that I spent so much of my adult religious life arguing against the Trinity as being unscriptural, only to become a "Trinitarian" because of science, philosophy, nature. Boy would the elders in my former congregation love to get there hands on me now!

It is funny, isn't it! Kinda goes to show you that most "trinitarians" don't understand Trinitarianism to begin with.

 

I used to feel mystical all the time and over the past few months I lost it. The past few days have brought it back (thanks Fred for bringing up Kenosis).

I do what I can.

[AletheiaRivers]

It is funny, isn't it! Kinda goes to show you that most "trinitarians" don't understand Trinitarianism to begin with.

 

And that those that argue against the Trinity don't really know what they are arguing against. Neither side has it right.

[FredP]

Neither side has it right.   

You've discovered my mantra!

[AletheiaRivers]

I can just see Fred, sitting lotus position, chanting and shaking his head in negation and bemusement: "Neither side has it right. Neither side has it right. Neither side has it right.'

[jerryb]

Aletheia,

 

You ARE poetic....don't fight it.

I like what you said about God's heartbeat...maybe that's what we are all missing in our hectic world today. The scripture "Be still and KNOW that I am God" comes to mind. I have come to understand that there is a great difference in BELIEVING

and KNOWING....and I need the feedback of all of you on this board to help me understand that difference.

 

 

GODSPEED MY FRIENDS,

 

Jerryb

 

Jerry, run (don't walk) to your nearest Blockbuster Video and rent the movie "Uncorked" with Minnie Driver and Rufus Sewel. The movie is filled with hidden spiritual insights. About 1/3 of the way into the film there is a scene that has something to do with what you said above. I hesistate to say more because I don't want to ruin in for you. The movie isn't an earthshaking spiritual experience, but that one particular scene reached in and grabbed my heart so tightly I couldn't breath.

 

I think "Be still and know that I am God" is my all time favorite scripture. Wow, we do seem to be on the same wavelength.

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Hi Aletheia,

 

 

On my way to the bookstore! Can't seem to get enough of this good spiritual stuff!

 

As far as that favorite scripture of yours...it's in my top ten too. And I truly believe,that if we ever really grasp what that verse implies...it will revolutionize our spritual paths.

 

 

Blessings my friend,

 

Jerry

[jerryb]

Thanks for the links Rog. I especially liked what the author of the blog had to say:

 

One of the tenants of philosophical Taoism is balance: To be balanced one should not dwell on depression, discouragement, or bad things to the point where they rob us of the ability to act. Moreover, the counter is equally as important. That is, when we encounter something that appears to be an advantage one should not get carried away with ecstatic excitement--especially to the point where we become blind to the bad which may be hiding in the advantageous.

 

According to the Tao Te Ching: Misfortune is what fortune depends upon. Fortune is where misfortune hides beneath. Naturally, the story of Sai Ong's son illustrates this notion.

 

Perhaps a better example for the Western mind is the notion of moderation. Without moderation, life can be series of extremes--a series of highs and lows. One moment you are high on success; the next you crash and burn. According to Taoism, nothing can survive long by going to extremes. Once you realize this, instead of non-stop highs and lows that are out of control, life becomes a series of gentle rolling hills. The extreme ups and downs become the exceptions, not the rule.

 

Comparitive religion is somewhat of a hoby of mine and I give credit to that interest in bringing me back to Christianity, because in my studies, I found Christianity to hold the most "truth", both philosophically and theologically.

 

I appreciate much of Taoism and Zen and think that they have alot to offer philosophically. The Zen concept of life being a journey that we shouldn't miss because we are so focused on a destination, is something I try to remind myself of regularly. Stop and smell the roses, in other words. Much of Christianity is "gotta get to heaven ... gotta survive God's war ... gotta avoid hell ... " Those are interpretations of the Bible that miss the point, imo.

 

I hold to a modified Christus Victor view of the cross. (I don't think Jesus was a legalistic, judicial style, ransom, propitiatory sacrifice for my sins.) I do think Jesus' death was a snub at the authorities (both material and immaterial) and a defiant snub at death. I think the resurrection has as much to teach us about the meaning of Jesus as his death did, and I think his life example, of course, is just as important as the other two.

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Aletheia....once again, our spiritual backgrounds are similar. My study in comparitive religion is also helping to bring me back to christianity. But it is a much different christianity from the one that was "drilled" into my head as a young man.

I am getting to know a kinder,gentler Jesus. Thanks to people like Phil Yancey who helped me to see that God is actually "hungry" for a relationship with us,and as he says in the cover of his book "Where is God when it hurts"? "God takes us

beyond the things that make for disillusionment,to a deeper faith,and a thirst not just for what God GIVES.but for who He IS".

 

 

MORE blessings,

 

Jerry

[AletheiaRivers]

"God takes us beyond the things that make for disillusionment,to a deeper faith,and a thirst not just for what God GIVES.but for who He IS".

 

[flowperson]

[soma]

God is definitely smiling on us today in your post or is that a wink? Maybe just one hand clapping?

[dirtnap]

Hi folks.

 

I'm new here. I found your site after doing a search for christianity and taoism. I see that some of you have done a similar search.

 

I have a few comments Re the compatability of Christianity and Taoism in response to some of what has been written in this thread. I hope none of this is too redundant.

 

first of all, I don't think the way of Jesus, the way of the cross, is in any way incompatable with wu wei. I think Jesus was following his Tao perfectly and went where it led. I assume the will of God is the same thing as the Tao.

 

Ii think the confusion arises from the idea that the course of least resistence is the same as the most easy course. There is a great deal to suggest that this is far from the case. It is, for example, seemingly easy to ignore certain truths about the environment. By ignoring these we can persue a life of ease by, for example, not worrying about how much we throw away. The truth is that this "life of ease" leads to enormous difficulties later for oourselves and others. Another example is the "white lies (or black ones) that we tell to people to avoid difficulties in close relationships. These make it easy for us to avoid a small conflict (or large one) only to have us return to it later magnified 10 fold. Consider the person who is unfaithful to a spose for example. It is easyier to lie about an indescretion BUT this is almost never the end of it. the turth always comes out and then there is not only the original violation but the further one of the lie. All this to say that the course of least resistence is often the harder one.

 

Another point of divergence between Christianity and Taoism is the alleged moral realitivism of the latter. It is important to remember that much of the rhetoric about the e1uality of right and wrong seen in Taoist texts, especially in Chaung Tzu, is in response to the moral rigidity of Confucian society. Institutional morality often serves to cover a lack of real compassion, which is why Lao Tzu points out that the notions of good and evil arise only after humans deviate from Tao. Similarly, Jesus responded in "irreverent" ways to the Jewish morality of his time by doing things like healing on the sabbath and having the timarity of forgiving an adulterous woman her sins.

 

There is so much to say about this but I'll stop here.

 

Peace be with you

dirtnap