"living Buddha, Living Christ"

[soma]

But this is fairly obvious ... Extremely subtle energy we will need more sensitive equipment. We can detect single photons (massless phenomena), so I am not sure how "sensing" even more subtle energies is relevant to my day to day activities. But you are right that our senses are limited ... so this is in part why I take an agnostic stance on the everyday as well as the supposed divine.

We diffuse our energy reacting to our inner stories, our fears, uncertainties and desires to satisfy our senses with gross stimulation, which is alright, but when people want an option there is mindfulness, the continuous awareness of the subtle energies permeating our body, emotions, thoughts and senses, as mentioned more than five. Mindfulness is a cultivated practice to be in the now that helps us to observe the moment, the energy present and our suffering or happiness. It changes a person’s disposition and life or people would not practice it and that is OK because there are many techniques to change a person’s life.

 

 

Unmindful Speech can Kill

While I do try to be truthful and I am cognisant of lying by omission as well as commission, there are times where a lie might be better. The classical example is a wife asking "does this dress make me look fat?" Not only do we have to lie with our words, our eyes, facial expressions and actions. The timing has to be impeccable. for there is no honest answer here.

 

 

I think mindful speech is not just telling the truth in every situation, but being mindful of the situation in a fluid and flexible manner that takes into account our subconscious and our intuition without reason in a deeper perception that does not need, logic, rationalization or the advanced instruments with their clear evidence and proof. It seems to be the subtle perception of the subtle inner energies and relationships that underlie most events.

 

Rom thanks for your comments to keep this thread alive.

[romansh]

We diffuse our energy (spread it out) by existing ... full stop. It continues after death. Most of "our" energy is that of the sun and prior to that an imbalance of energy (differentiation of matter and gravity) at the start of at least this universe. "Our" energy is only 'borrowed'.

 

As for the subtle energies that do or don't pass into what we perceive as consciousness (at least to varying degrees) they are of the same substrate. The stories I tell myself can be seen as positive or negative socially speaking. Even the positive ones can be seen as in a negative light ... eg some might claim my ego is overwhelming. I don't think our supposed inner life is what it seems. But it is a pattern of moving matter that we seem to experience and we do give the various aspects of the movement names. Much in the same way I suggested tree is a verb.

 

From your post it was not clear, is it OK to lie on certain occasions?

[romansh]

Went through Chapter 8 yesterday ... more of the same: be compassionate in action not just in thought and word. I get it.

 

Secure in the womb???? Perhaps.

! will read Chapter 9 today ... won't take long.

Edited September 11, 2016 by romansh

[Burl]

Chapter 7: For a Future to be Possible

 

TNH writes of the importance of connecting with religious roots and reinvigorating faded or disconnected precepts. This lies at the heart of Progressive Christianity.

 

It also is essential to the transmission of wisdom within contemporary society and the past, which Christians call the communion of the saints, and implies that without religious and communal involvement there may be no future.

 

TNH rephrases each of the Five Wonderful Precepts of Buddhism. I suggest we take each precept individually.

[Burl]

Precept 1: Aware of the suffering caused by the destruction of life, I vow to cultivate compassion and learn ways to protect the lives of people, animals, plants and minerals. I am determined not to kill, let others kill, and not to condone any act of killing in the world, in my thinking and in my way of life.

 

My opinion is that this is hyperbole, a rhetorical technique Jesus often used. TNH himself admits it is an impossibility when he notes we cannot boil water or eat vegetables without killing life.

 

The minerals part I'm not so sure about. Concrete seems to have a positive valence.

 

Still, I think we must accept this as an ideal. Blessing every meal is an act of contrition as well as one of gratitude.

[romansh]

Still, I think we must accept this as an ideal. Blessing every meal is an act of contrition as well as one of gratitude.

 

Was not sure about your concrete seems to have a positive valence means

 

I think having an awareness of how we are interconnected with our food is fine. Blessing it per se is unnecessary at least in the literal Christian words we use.

[Burl]

Was not sure about your concrete seems to have a positive valence means

 

I think having an awareness of how we are interconnected with our food is fine. Blessing it per se is unnecessary at least in the literal Christian words we use.

The combination of cement, sand and rock does some really great stuff. Even if it offends the mineral world.

 

May God bless you.

[romansh]

The combination of cement, sand and rock does some really great stuff. Even if it offends the mineral world.

 

May God bless you.

 

 

After my previous reply I had to go look up what exactly does the word bless mean ... I sensed a circular regress developing.

While I am very familiar with it when it is used.

 

What; I need more blessing than I already have? ... I think God should save those for the starving in war torn Syria and the famine stricken parts of Africa.

 

Sorry the chemist in me in me got in the way of interpreting positive valence. Though I did not get a sense that Hanh would not be worried about the use of concrete or minerals in some negative fashion.

Edited September 11, 2016 by romansh

[Burl]

After my previous reply I had to go look up what exactly does the word bless mean ... I sensed a circular regress developing.

While I am very familiar with it when it is used.

 

What; I need more blessing than I already have? ... I think God should save those for the starving in war torn Syria and the famine stricken parts of Africa.

 

Sorry the chemist in me in me got in the way of interpreting positive valence. Though I did not get a sense that Hanh would not be worried about the use of concrete or minerals in some negative fashion.

On the subject of the importance of connection to your ancestors and your existence as a means to pass on spiritual values to future generations? The maintainence of the connections within this everlasting chain?

 

What do you think TNH is getting at here?

 

PS: You are blessed, dude. Deal with it

Edited September 11, 2016 by Burl

[romansh]

Personally I think he is over the top.

 

Basically ... science, our logical intuition, even some of religious texts point to this determinism.

For Hahn ... our actions affect those around us and future generations. And not just "those and generations" the world in general. So in this sense they might have a say in our behaviours. So at least in this sense we belong to others. I presume Hahn means the same when for our ancestors as well in that we have some responsibility to them.

 

The last bit I would argue about that. I have no problem discarding an ancestral tradition if I find it to be nonsense.

 

I don't have a good sense of what Hanh means by spiritual values. But being the change you want to see in the world only works for so long.

[Burl]

Personally I think he is over the top.

 

Basically ... science, our logical intuition, even some of religious texts point to this determinism.

For Hahn ... our actions affect those around us and future generations. And not just "those and generations" the world in general. So in this sense they might have a say in our behaviours. So at least in this sense we belong to others. I presume Hahn means the same when for our ancestors as well in that we have some responsibility to them.

 

The last bit I would argue about that. I have no problem discarding an ancestral tradition if I find it to be nonsense.

 

I don't have a good sense of what Hanh means by spiritual values. But being the change you want to see in the world only works for so long.

If by 'over the top' you mean hyperbole we completely agree, but I think his thought points in the right direction.

[romansh]

Chapter 9

The Other Shore

Here, although I can't say I am on the same page as Hanh, I could well be in the same book if not chapter.

 

Continuation

We seem to feel there must be a next life ... A quarter of North Americans and Europeans believe in some form of reincarnation. While I am aware reincarnation and afterlife are not necessarily the same thing ... but I am wondering who this we are? Hanh does not appear to be one of them.

 

I have absolutely no fear of being dead or being reduced to so called nothingness. I might not look forward some of the patterns that are involved in getting to death, but then that is OK too.

 

Manifestation and Remanifestation

While we are definitely not the same moment from moment , but barring extraordinary events we are similar.

 

When Hanh points to our impermanent bodies and our soul like attributes he skirts awfully closely with a dualistic outlook.

 

All this manifestation type stuff, is fine ... it is like an eddy in a pond ... it sucks in water from the immediate pond and throws it back out. it is just a pattern of material movement.

 

True Faith is Alive.

if by this Hahn means our beliefs are subject to change as new evidence and more accurate interpretations of that evidence, then I am all in favour of that.

 

Each Moment is a Moment of Renewal

energy of mindfulness and energy of holy spirit. These energies are movement of the material in the material world. At least in my book.

 

Nirvana is Available Now

This whole chapter is about birth and death, non birth and non death etc. I am reminded xenobiologists when looking for life have trouble defining it from an astronomical exploration point of view. In fact they end up defining in thermodynamic terms. For me life is an arbitrary phenomena where life gains energy from an outside source and expends it in a sufficiently complex and hindered way.

 

Extinction of Notions

Experience of apple juice ... while true , but only up to a point, there is a deeper philosophical issue here. Lets take the experience of colour ... the science is simpler. lets say we look at the same red chair. Do we have the same experience of redness and even is the chair red? And does the chair go together with the non-table?

 

Everything can be Spiritual

Especially if we define spiritual broadly enough.

 

Sometimes terms like "secular Christianity" or "atheistic Christianity" are used to describe this movement. There are those who worry that secular or atheistic Christianity is no longer real Christianity. To me, if you live deeply the teaching of Jesus, everything you say and do in your daily life will be deeply spiritual.

 

to me this seems like the most liberal end of Progressive Christianity. Hanh goes on to say he would not call it secular or atheistic. Why not? What is the problem with this?

 

Touching the Living Buddha

... being and non-being are extremes that the Buddha transcended. I sort of get it. but is this what Hanh means as interbeing. To me it is sexed up atheism ... to quote Richard Dawkins. And of course this is fine.

 

Rinsing the Mouth and Washing the Ears

The concept of "rabbit's horn" is a concept. Well it is a concept so in this sense it is true that it is a concept. But just remember we read a section on extinction of notions.

 

The Holy Spirit can be Identified

I must admit, I like the prefer the concept of negative theology, though not keen on the theology bit. This parallels science ... in that we have a hypothesis and then knock it down as we find evidence to disqualify that hypothesis. Science works in similar ways. So when we find some saying God is ... then we should be really circumspect as th the author of God is.

 

I don't know why I was reminded of Jung quote when I read the opening paragraph. Religion is a defence against the experience of God.

 

Touching the Ultimate Dimension

I must admit coolness is what I "strive" for ... don't always get there.

 

The bit about farms and weather and soil ... in a way Hanh is describing determinism while avoiding the term and sexing up the concept. in my opinion, it does not need sexing up.

 

You are born into your tradition ... OK Hanh is talking to Buddhist and Christians here primarily, Fair enough, but my "tradition" did not stick and I have entered another one. Would Hanh want me to promote that into the future?

 

I am away this week ... so the grand finale next week end.

Edited September 11, 2016 by romansh

[romansh]

If by 'over the top' you mean hyperbole we completely agree, but I think his thought points in the right direction.

 

I point to my truth better than he points to mine.

 

But yes hyperbole works too.

[soma]

As for the subtle energies that do or don't pass into what we perceive as consciousness (at least to varying degrees) they are of the same substrate. The stories I tell myself can be seen as positive or negative socially speaking. Even the positive ones can be seen as in a negative light ... eg some might claim my ego is overwhelming. I don't think our supposed inner life is what it seems. But it is a pattern of moving matter that we seem to experience and we do give the various aspects of the movement names. Much in the same way I suggested tree is a verb.

 

From your post it was not clear, is it OK to lie on certain occasions?

 

It takes a lot of energy to lie, which is going against the flow of energy so going with the flow is being honest and gives us the feeling of freedom in being open to the flow in the moment. Personally I try to go with the flow and don’t trust people who lie to me which is a kind of negative flow, but I don’t think it is good or bad just a different interpretation of the energy in the moment; therefore we can lie with words and silence. A salesman or player can say all the right words externally for his/her greedy desires internally and in the same way an upright person can be silent expressing a power beyond belief. Energy doesn’t lie so I trust the force, which in the long run is neither good nor bad, which means it is OK to lie in certain situations according to the moment. I think we experiment with the flow of energy and that is how we learn because it can be painful so everyone lies; some will say only dead bodies go with the flow.

On the subject of the importance of connection to your ancestors and your existence as a means to pass on spiritual values to future generations? The maintenance of the connections within this everlasting chain?

What do you think TNH is getting at here?

 

The energy or wisdom of our ancestors is with us if we want it or not in the form of information, family history, characteristics or body type. I think the importance of connecting to our ancestors and our own existence reawakens our connection to everything whether we think this subtle energy is a ghost or energy that is positive or negative propelling and motivating us to act in a certain way. We are the result of our relatives’ actions and the Asian countries use this ancestral force to do great things while we can build and pave over the ancient ways, we can also utilize that energy contained in them to make life better. Inquiring into the cultures and philosophies of the earth, the love energy of hundreds of people who shared their ancestor beliefs, customs and spiritual practices have indebted me to walk the earth with the knowledge and experience that we are all connected to each other and all things with separation only being in my mind. The mind seeking enlightenment, Divinity, spirit, or just high energy in an experience in present time disallowed it so my ego could continue to move matter in its way and control my actions. This quest or spiritual journey was blocking the present time experience I was seeking; therefore, I had to look at my driving force and validate my own ticket for just being in the moment and letting the energy of the universe respond to my inner longing. The one energy that is never destroyed, but just changes form contains in its wholeness the energy of the past, present and future in present time. Our mind in duality is what separates this wholeness putting one thing after another in linear form preventing us from learning and loving our ancestors in the past, present and future at the same time.

[Burl]

I don't read TNH that way at all, Soma. He talks about the importance of home altars, burning incense and of announcing family news to the ancestors. Rituals are critical when they have meaning.

 

He talks about the importance of roots, social integration and avoiding alienation in our youth. TNH is analytical and sees these separations as an essential part of Buddhism.

 

In general, I see TNH as cherishing every possible distinction. He slices every duality into halves; I think his take on duality is that it limits the appreciation of each unique experience. I don't read him as grinding life into an 'everything is one' meditational meatloaf.

 

I think the five wonderful precepts of Buddhism are intended to be considered individually.

[soma]

Burl, Buddhists have designed, analyzed and taught practices and philosophies to make life better and to develop human beings for centuries. Before science they were using individual measurements to develop and improve their techniques to make the outcome; happiness and enlightenment better. With modern equipment we can now objectively measure Buddhist results and there is evidence of positive benefits related to their meditation. It is not a transcendental state but a precondition they teach leading to wisdom, energy and other positive mental and physical states where one finds unity in one’s daily activities, and comes to understand one’s purpose in being alive.

 

He talks about the importance of home altars, burning incense and of announcing family news to the ancestors. Rituals are critical when they have meaning. He talks about the importance of roots, social integration and avoiding alienation in our youth. TNH is analytical and sees these separations as an essential part of Buddhism.

 

These things are important, but they are not the goal of Buddhism. When we start to meditate it is difficult so some Buddhist choose not to meditate at all, but different methods are available for those that want to try; for example, my mind at six o’clock is hungry so the ritual of meditating at the same time everyday in the same place decorated to one’s taste sets the ambiance to be quiet, still the mind and experience the silence. It is one trick to control the mind to do our biding and not to be controlled by the mind.

In order to understand Buddhism, we need to understand its ultimate goal because the different sects have different rituals, techniques and tricks to reach that goal. The goal of Buddhism is a connection with everything in life and beyond it in living, suffering, enjoying, and dying on earth and beyond it. Buddhism like Protestantism is a reaction to Hinduism as the Christian reaction to Catholicism. I feel as Christians we need to also develop the best methods to help people especially our youth to attain the highest state of contentment in life and discover and try different techniques to grow within their unique life style. The goal is the same, but the methods or paths may differ.

As Monists, Buddhists eliminate all the faces of Gods, which is why Westerners call Hinduism a polytheistic religion, which it is not because that is only their thinking, Hindus see the different manifestations or Deities as expressions of the One God, who is the Eternal Self called Atman or Brahman, which is the most important core of all Creation. Our Christian monotheism is similar when we look at the Trinity, which is unified and diversified in absolute reality. We have one God who chooses according to most Christian in three ways; Father, Son and Holy spirit. The God of the Bible gives many Christians the image of being independent of His Creation so we have no problem with unity in absolute reality, but difficulty with unity in physical reality; therefore, most Christian’s interpretation is dualistic in its separation of created matter and Divine Essence. I feel our God is unified in sharing One Divine Nature or Essence, which is the explanation of monism and explained in the Oneness of our Holy Trinity.

 

“There is only God” ( Ephesians 4:6) Where the Buddhist say only one One and Christians say one God, I think separating God from creation is not a complete interpretation that creation is an expression of God when in the beginning all there is is God; therefore, creation is a part of God. “For of him, and through him, and to him are all things.” (Romans 11:36) As a Christian I don’t separate God from creation so I agree more with monism than monotheism,

[Burl]

This is a book study, and we need to stick to understanding exactly what TNH wrote without ladling on our own theologies.

 

We are not trying to define Buddhsm. Just to understand clearly TBH's descriptions of the wonderful precepts as written in this chapter.

[soma]

In general, I see TNH as cherishing every possible distinction. He slices every duality into halves; I think his take on duality is that it limits the appreciation of each unique experience. I don't read him as grinding life into an 'everything is one' meditational meatloaf.

 

 

The techniques are explained in detail in duality with the goal in mind. Without mindfulness there is no Buddhism so it can’t be separated from its practice that is like teaching a language without the context of culture. One of the Noble Eight Fold Paths, Right mindfulness is seeing through the myths, misunderstanding, superstitions and false impressions of our minds in duality so you think this is describing duality so we can experience a deeper duality?

 

“He talks about the importance of home altars, burning incense and of announcing family news to the ancestors. Rituals are critical when they have meaning.He talks about the importance of roots, social integration and avoiding alienation in our youth. TNH is analytical and sees these separations as an essential part of Buddhism. In general, I see TNH as cherishing every possible distinction. He slices every duality into halves; I think his take on duality is that it limits the appreciation of each unique experience. I don't read him as grinding life into an 'everything is one' meditational meatloaf.”

 

“Rituals are critical when they have meaning” Do you think Buddhist light incense because it is holy smoke that helps them to analyze the separateness of life? It is another trick to pacify the the senses and mind so mindfulness of the unity in the present moment can be experienced. “I think the five wonderful precepts of Buddhism are intended to be considered individually.” Yes they are to be analyzed individually, but do you think they are not united into a single objective. That each one is a candle of unity and so their light is not one, but separate? If you don’t see the big picture you are like the five blind men describing the elephant; one describes the ear, one the tail, one the leg and truck separately, but they don’t get the unity of the larger picture. Describe the trees separately, but forget they are in a forest, but without the forest the Red Wood trees would fall over because their roots are entangled, which helps them all be stable and upright.

[JosephM]

This is a book study, and we need to stick to understanding exactly what TNH wrote without ladling on our own theologies.

 

We are not trying to define Buddhsm. Just to understand clearly TBH's descriptions of the wonderful precepts as written in this chapter.

Burl,

I think Soma's comments (theology) is related to what TNH wrote. This is not a book study forum .... it is a book discussion forum. In discussion , it seems to me we do not have to agree with what we read and it seems to me good to discuss, agree or disagree or amplify on any concepts mentioned in the book and offer our take on it. Essentially book discussions give readers a voice .

Joseph

Edited September 15, 2016 by JosephM

[Burl]

This first wonderful precept is directly applicable to Progressive Christianity. One of the criticisms of PC is that mainstream American Protestant Christianity has detatched meaning from ritual.

 

I think this a valid point, but where PC would have us discard ritual I think TNH recommends reinvigorating the semiotics by reconnecting intellectually to our symbolism.

[JosephM]

Burl,

 

Here is a good article on PC and ritual from our main Progressive Christianity .org site. I don't think it is a fair statement that PC would have us discard ritual.

 

While we are a community of welcome without the bonds of having to accept the formal dogma and doctrines of man disguised as the church system, holy books, laws or rituals, we do not reject or discard rituals

Joseph

[Burl]

Thank you, Joseph. That clears some things up. I'm more PC than I thought I was.

[SteveS55]

In chapter 7, Nhat Hahn makes the following statement related to the fifth precept:

 

“In modern life, people think that their body belongs to

them and they can do anything they want to it. When

they make such a determination, the law supports them.

This is one of the manifestations of individualism. But,

according to the teachings of emptiness, non-self, and

interbeing, your body is not yours alone. It also belongs

to your ancestors, your parents, future generations, and

all other living beings. Everything, even the trees and the

clouds, has come together to bring about the presence of

your body.”

 

When I first read the precept, it came to me as just another platitude, for which various religious traditions are famous. But, when I examined the above statement I realized something very odd. If, as Buddhism claims, and as many people accept, there is no inherent “self”, “soul”, or whatever else you choose to call the “I”, then neither is there a “me” or “mine” to possess that which appears to be possessed – something to be pondered.

Personally, that leaves me with nowhere to go, which is perhaps exactly where I should be. I am left with a vague understanding of “existence” (at least our beliefs about existence) as a “cosmic joke”. There is an image of the “laughing Buddha” that comes to mind. Lurking just beneath our presumed existential underpinnings, I suspect there is a huge primal laugh waiting to be released.

 

Steve

[JosephM]

Yes, The conundrum to me is that if there is no self and Nhat Hahn says "people think that their body belongs to them and they can do anything they want to it" then WHO IS IT that is thinking that and doing whatever they want to it ?

[romansh]

Yes, The conundrum to me is that if there is no self and Nhat Hahn says "people think that their body belongs to them and they can do anything they want to it" then WHO IS IT that is thinking that and doing whatever they want to it ?

 

I don't recall Hanh's exact phrasing, but my understanding of the Buddhist phrase it is actually not self rather than no self. The whole point of this is that any thinking that you or I do is a result of the 'universe unfolding' rather than some automaton that exists independent of the universe.

 

I don't particularly care for the rhetoric around "belonging" though.