soma Posted June 22, 2016 Share Posted June 22, 2016 We all have our methods to center when these tragedies occur so we can meet them and do our part with kindness and compassion. Talking about the gun culture and intolerance that emotionally triggers these acts is a good place to start in the US especially with the election bringing up the opportunity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulS Posted June 22, 2016 Author Share Posted June 22, 2016 There's a difference between being a person of religion and being a person of faith...... .......... A person of faith -- that is, a person who has experienced God's presence in their lives in positive, loving, affirming ways -- does not pray to God to blow up non-believers. God bless, Jen To the contrary Jen, if we are talking about faith as defined in most dictionaries (that is faith being complete trust or confidence in someone or something based on spiritual conviction rather than proof), then I would argue that the Islamics who are prepared to die for their God whilst killing those who they believe are their God's enemies, then they very much indeed have just as strong a faith as you do in your loving, caring God. In fact, I think you would find that many suicide bombers believe their God loves them very, very much and it is out of their love for him that they are prepared to kill and die. I think many of these people very much feel feel their God's affirming presence in their lives. We obviously don't agree with their faith and we think they are wrong, but similarly they wouldn't agree with your faith and they think that you are wrong. Perhaps the Orlando killer wasn't particularly associated with Islam and most likely suffered some degree of mental health issues, but that doesn't take away from the very many committed, faithful servants of Allah who are convinced they are living their lives the way their God wants them to. Suicide bombings, murder and all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephM Posted June 23, 2016 Share Posted June 23, 2016 Paul, I have found the best definition of faith that matches my experience to be found in the book of Hebrews 11:1 in the NT KJV. In my view, faith is usually used synonymous with the word belief which to me is not the same thing. One can believe in a lie and be blinded by that belief. But faith doesn't require belief which is commonly just trust or acceptance that may be blind or just passed down from others. Whereas, faith is more of a knowing that comes with a conscious connection to the presence that is in and through all things. 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. It is 'seeing' the actual substance, the evidence of that which can't yet be seen with the physical eyes. I think you are correct that these suicide bombers have stronger beliefs than most Christians. Many strong enough to sacrifice their lives for what they believe. (which is a programmed lie from recorded writings and others) .In my experience, many Christians are in the same boat as history, the OT and the dark ages have shown. I think religious belief without the connection is a counterfeit of what faith really is. It seems to me, when one experience the presence of God there is no belief (as in blind acceptance or trust based on others) required or even needed. It is self-evident. Most Christians may not share this view or definition but in my experience it is true. At least as true as i can presently put into words. Joseph Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulS Posted June 23, 2016 Author Share Posted June 23, 2016 I agree Joseph - faith and belief shouldn't necessarily be lumped together, but I would contend that many suicide bombers and extremist Islamics experience the presence of God also, just in a way that is different to what perhaps we're used to. To say that none of them have 'faith' I think is a stretch. Sure some might be blinded by lies and beliefs, but many hold a true passion for what they experience as the presence of God. I think to say that their faith is not real faith is Religion 101 where we think somebody else couldn't possibly have the true faith because our religion does! I'm sure that's not what you mean - but are you saying that suicide bombers don't have faith in God? Do you think they haven't expereinced a true personal relationship with their God? Do they not feel they experience the presence of God in their life? I doubt they would agree with you if so. I think a bomber's faith, i.e. hoping for the blessing of God is exactly as described in the above Hebrews quote. They believe their God will reward them in the afterlife for their loyalty and preparedness to take action on their God's behalf. Being rewarded with X number of virgins certainly seems to fit the 'evidence of things not seen' part. Perhaps in this case belief and faith are the same thing, but I can't imagine anyone having more passion and faith in their God than somebody who is prepared to end their life early in order to worship their God. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soma Posted June 23, 2016 Share Posted June 23, 2016 In consciousness and energy their are many dimensions from crude to subtle; I feel the same with degrees of faith. The Hindu caste system is about four different categories of mentality, but the Brahmans have manipulated the system to benefit them and are not real Brahmans because consciousness is not inherited. In every religion we have the elites manipulating the lower caste to do their dirty work, which shows they are not as holy as they make out. I think that is why Jesus said, the fruits, deeds or actions tell you about the tree, not the words. There are great mystics in every religion too, Rumi is an Iranian mystic poet who has won the hearts and minds of many spiritual people around the world, the same as the Christian Merton and the Hindu Tagore because they reflect the truth. It is difficult to stay above the hate, fear and chaos that worldly tragedies magnify and that is why they are done to incite terror. Cooler heads will prevail if they are not caught up in the emotional upheaval that different leaders use to manipulate the masses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulS Posted June 23, 2016 Author Share Posted June 23, 2016 Paul I don't think we can explain these things solely in terms of neurology and psychiatry. While no doubt very important there are other considerations like gun culture of the US, societal acceptance of homosexuals and what his particular brand of religion suggested to him as a reasonable course of action. Did he have faith he was doing the reasonable thing? I don't know. But I certainly hope so; in that doing such terrible thing when you are not sure would not make any sense at all to me. Definitely Rom - there's a lot mixed up here. I see now it's being reported that the shooter may have been exacting revenge because he may have slept with a HIV-infected man. If the shooter himself was a closet gay or bi, I can only imagine how this might have affected him. Indeed, as a married Muslim I imagine he would have been facing a big pile of shame rather than love and acceptance, so perhaps he chose to go out this way to save some face maybe? Who knows. It has opened up some interesting debate about faith though. This shooter aside, I see passionate, faithful people fighting for Allah with the likes of ISIS & Al Queda. I think many of these people have faith just as dear as many Christians do, but obviously in different ways. Obviously 'our side' would view 'proper' faith as a loving, wondrous experience with our God, and the fundy Islam's faith as an error of judgement (to say the least). Of course the fundy Islamic would most likely see things the other way round and would not believe that a Christian's faith is genuine. I don't know where I'm going with this but to me it's an observation that two different peoples are claiming their experience, their faith in God is the 'right' one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Realspiritik Posted June 23, 2016 Share Posted June 23, 2016 Paul, I have found the best definition of faith that matches my experience to be found in the book of Hebrews 11:1 in the NT KJV. In my view, faith is usually used synonymous with the word belief which to me is not the same thing. One can believe in a lie and be blinded by that belief. But faith doesn't require belief which is commonly just trust or acceptance that may be blind or just passed down from others. Whereas, faith is more of a knowing that comes with a conscious connection to the presence that is in and through all things. 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. It is 'seeing' the actual substance, the evidence of that which can't yet be seen with the physical eyes. I think you are correct that these suicide bombers have stronger beliefs than most Christians. Many strong enough to sacrifice their lives for what they believe. (which is a programmed lie from recorded writings and others) .In my experience, many Christians are in the same boat as history, the OT and the dark ages have shown. I think religious belief without the connection is a counterfeit of what faith really is. It seems to me, when one experience the presence of God there is no belief (as in blind acceptance or trust based on others) required or even needed. It is self-evident. Most Christians may not share this view or definition but in my experience it is true. At least as true as i can presently put into words. Joseph Yes. I agree completely. Faith is an experience deep within the self. It's a transformative, healing, uplifting way of being in relationship with all of Creation. Belief in a "cause" or an "ideology" (as with suicide bombers and, indeed, with all fanatics and zealots) creates completely different sensations inside the brain than the sensations created by relationship with God. I can remember how I "felt" inside my own head when I was a young adult, long before I embarked on my journey of faith as a mystic. I remember what it felt like to be "right." The pleasure in being right was so brief, and I was so quick to judge others and become angry. There were times I didn't like myself very much. In faith, I've found the peace that comes from setting aside ideology and allowing myself to be in full relationship with myself, with others, and with God. I'm so very grateful to God for helping me find the currents of peace and love that flow through and around all of us when we open our hearts to Divine Love. Thank you, blessed Mother and Father! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Realspiritik Posted June 23, 2016 Share Posted June 23, 2016 (edited) I don't know where I'm going with this but to me it's an observation that two different peoples are claiming their experience, their faith in God is the 'right' one. Paul, what you're describing here is not what I've been trying to describe. You're describing a different aspect of human cognition and behaviour than the one I'm trying to describe. What you're describing is fideism -- blind faith in an ideology. This isn't the same "neurological package" as the life-altering experience of God's presence that some of us have felt. In fact, the two are so different (on the inside of one's head, so to speak) that I wonder how you're able to present as "fact" your contention that "many suicide bombers and extremist Islamics experience the presence of God also." All human beings share the same DNA (allowing for the minor variations that create our minor differences, of course.) All human beings are born with the same basic set of brain wiring and brain potentials. So when people make claims for their experiences, we now have the tools to begin to assess and compare those claims. We can see which parts of their brains are active when they're thinking about God and which parts are not. There are many complicated neurological and psychiatric issues that can have an impact on the origin of a person's claims for experience of God. What are the conditions under which the experience happened? Was there a head injury? A seizure? Use of a psychotropic drug? A viral infection? Sepsis? And so on. It's very complicated, and these issues affect the whole brain, not just the part you seem to speak of as "religion." There's no "religion" box inside the brain. There are only networks related to memory, cognition, decision-making, communication skills, relationship skills, intuition, and so on. Religion takes advantage of those basic networks, but so do politics and justice systems and professional sports and technology and economics and pedagogy. So on a scientific basis, it's not correct to separate religious ideologies from other ideologies. They're all intertwined. We all have the same basic brain toolkit. But we don't all use it the same way. And by the time we're adults, some of us have damaged the potential of our brains and therefore have damaged the potential of our brains to experience emotions such as love, trust, forgiveness, and empathy. So please. Just because a person uses the words "love, trust, forgiveness, and empathy," it doesn't necessarily mean their brains have grown to adulthood with the capacity to experience these emotions. Words are tricky little beasties, and we need wisdom in order to feel the true intent behind the words. Blind faith -- fideism -- relies almost entirely on the fact that System 2 brain circuits aren't wired to feel emotions such as empathy, so words are assumed to hold the meaning of their "face value." System 2 dominant thinkers can't feel what's going on behind the words, so the words hold more power than they should. But the experience of faith that comes from the heart and soul . . . that's something else entirely. And the scientific reality is that if one has stopped using the circuits of the brain that process quantum emotions such as love and forgiveness, you not only can't feel love and forgiveness in your relationships with other human beings, but you can't feel God's presence. God is love. If one has chosen to stop feeling love (as in psychopathy) . . . guess what, you can't feel God's love, either. It's just the basic math of how the brain works. So a zealot may talk about God's love, but they're only "talking the talk," not "walking the walk." One can only "walk the walk" if the brain's relationship circuits haven't been fried. Although you yourself may not have personally experienced the kind of faith I'm talking about, my experience is a daily one, not a "one off." Please don't assume that you know better than I do what my experience is. I say this because the way in which you're talking about faith in this thread (as opposed to religion) makes it sound as if you're sure you know better than the rest of us what faith is and what faith feels like. Maybe you have something in your life that's really important to you -- maybe something like scuba diving or rock climbing or gardening a rare species of orchid. If you had a deep connection to scuba diving, and you knew what it feels like (not in words, but in terms of ongoing experience and knowledge and memory and learning), do you think you'd appreciate it if you read about somebody else's "opinion" about scuba diving when he or she has never learned to swim let alone scuba dive? Would it seem reasonable that others should give priority to the opinion of somebody who's only read about scuba diving over your daily experience as a scuba diver? So just to be clear . . . the blind faith (fideism) that you're conflating here with an experience of God's presence is not what I'm talking about in terms of faith. Edited June 23, 2016 by Realspiritik Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephM Posted June 23, 2016 Share Posted June 23, 2016 I agree Joseph - faith and belief shouldn't necessarily be lumped together, but I would contend that many suicide bombers and extremist Islamics experience the presence of God also, just in a way that is different to what perhaps we're used to. To say that none of them have 'faith' I think is a stretch. Sure some might be blinded by lies and beliefs, but many hold a true passion for what they experience as the presence of God. I think to say that their faith is not real faith is Religion 101 where we think somebody else couldn't possibly have the true faith because our religion does! I'm sure that's not what you mean - but are you saying that suicide bombers don't have faith in God? Do you think they haven't expereinced a true personal relationship with their God? Do they not feel they experience the presence of God in their life? I doubt they would agree with you if so. I think a bomber's faith, i.e. hoping for the blessing of God is exactly as described in the above Hebrews quote. They believe their God will reward them in the afterlife for their loyalty and preparedness to take action on their God's behalf. Being rewarded with X number of virgins certainly seems to fit the 'evidence of things not seen' part. Perhaps in this case belief and faith are the same thing, but I can't imagine anyone having more passion and faith in their God than somebody who is prepared to end their life early in order to worship their God. I would disagree that they are experiencing the presence of God. They are most likely experiencing the presence of hate, anger, pride and the like. This is a minority of Muslims. Their actions are motivated by that hate, fear, anger, guilt and pride. Yes they are passionate about their cause but the passion is misdirected by a belief (not faith) in falsehoods or lies. Paul, what i am saying is suicide bombers have a strong belief in a god that they have been taught the same as extremists of any religion that do such things. I am not comparing 1 religion to another concerning faith. Yes, i am saying they lack the connection because that connection is founded in Love for all rather than reward for self at the expense of others. Perhaps i am mistaken but that is my experience. Faith it seems to me is known by its fruits... being love, joy, patience, kindness, peace, tolerance and the like which are found.when we are conscious of that presence. Howbeit, most of my life is found in unconsciousness action.(programming) I could have been the suicide bomber or terrorist under the same conditions. I am no better than he/she. I agree they have passion and BELIEF in their god but as i said... that to me is not faith and others may disagree with my definition but to me, there is a distinction. The OT portrays a similar god but Jesus and experience seem to point elsewhere . Joseph Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Realspiritik Posted June 23, 2016 Share Posted June 23, 2016 I would disagree that they are experiencing the presence of God. They are most likely experiencing the presence of hate, anger, pride and the like. This is a minority of Muslims. Their actions are motivated by that hate, fear, anger, guilt and pride. Yes they are passionate about their cause but the passion is misdirected by a belief (not faith) in falsehoods or lies. Paul, what i am saying is suicide bombers have a strong belief in a god that they have been taught the same as extremists of any religion that do such things. I am not comparing 1 religion to another concerning faith. Yes, i am saying they lack the connection because that connection is founded in Love for all rather than reward for self at the expense of others. Perhaps i am mistaken but that is my experience. Faith it seems to me is known by its fruits... being love, joy, patience, kindness, peace, tolerance and the like which are found.when we are conscious of that presence. Howbeit, most of my life is found in unconsciousness action.(programming) I could have been the suicide bomber or terrorist under the same conditions. I am no better than he/she. I agree they have passion and BELIEF in their god but as i said... that to me is not faith and others may disagree with my definition but to me, there is a distinction. The OT portrays a similar god but Jesus and experience seem to point elsewhere . Joseph Thank you, Joseph. You explain the distinction well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
romansh Posted June 23, 2016 Share Posted June 23, 2016 (edited) It has opened up some interesting debate about faith though. This shooter aside, I see passionate, faithful people fighting for Allah with the likes of ISIS & Al Queda. I think many of these people have faith just as dear as many Christians do, but obviously in different ways. Obviously 'our side' would view 'proper' faith as a loving, wondrous experience with our God, and the fundy Islam's faith as an error of judgement (to say the least). Of course the fundy Islamic would most likely see things the other way round and would not believe that a Christian's faith is genuine. Yes there are some interesting speculations going on here. But ultimately the are a variety societal behavioral patterns that for various reasons may or might not imprint on us. (This I think is true for all of us, me included). We don't always have sufficient understanding of the situation, (the myriad of causes that make us who we are) and this allows us to think of ourselves as somehow separate. The ultimate illusion is that we are somehow separate from one another, from the animal kingdom, from life in general, the inanimate and even the universe itself. It took the whole universe to make you who you are Paul ... and you are "shaping" the whole universe, but the apparent bits of shaping are not immediately or easily observable beyond your immediate environment. A commonly accepted literal translation of religion from the Latin is to reconnect. But reconnect to what? I think for some this is to reconnect to God, for some it is humanity, for others it might be compassion or love. For me it is to reconnect to the universe (here I use universe in its broadest sense). And by this, perhaps unfortunately, I don't mean in an emotional sense; but, I mean in a deep intellectual sense. This position is I think is applicable to both pantheism and atheism, militant or otherwise. Edited June 23, 2016 by romansh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
romansh Posted June 24, 2016 Share Posted June 24, 2016 (edited) Just an aside Paul ... there are some who might argue that God is love, compassion and other positive attributes. others claim God is all and infinite. I think a pantheist might accept the supposedly negative aspects of humanity and include them their God as well. Similarly I being monistically inclined accept all of the universe as it is. I have been shaped to like certain parts of it more than others, but that is OK too. I love this quote from Joseph Campbell ... it just about nails it for me! But the ultimate mystical goal is to be united with one's god. With that, duality is transcended and forms disappear. There is nobody there, no god, no you. Your mind, going past all concepts, has dissolved in identification with ground of your own being, because that to which the metaphorical image of your god refers to the ultimate mystery of your own being, which is the mystery of the being of the world as well. Edited June 24, 2016 by romansh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulS Posted June 24, 2016 Author Share Posted June 24, 2016 Jen, Maybe I am not making myself clear enough - I understand you are describing faith to be something different, a different experience, than what an extremist Muslim may experience as faith. But what I am saying is that if you ask an extremist Muslim, I 'suspect' they have the same view as you about their experience of faith versus yours. I suspect, just from other things I have read about Islam, that these people would swear they experience God in a very real and meaningful way to them. It just isn't the same way as you have experienced faith in God. I further suspect that if we were to carry out brain imaging concerning an individual's faith, both yours and the extremist Muslim's brain would light up in the same area when thinking about faith and God. I am happy to be shown otherwise but I suspect there isn't any empirical studies demonstrating this. I do understand that different parts of the brain will light up with different emotions, but when it comes to faith I'm not sure it can be demonstrated as fact that these two parties would light up in different areas. Am I wrong in that? Where do you draw from that the extremist Muslim's experience of faith isn't the "same "neurological package" as the life-altering experience of God's presence that some of us have felt"? How are you able to present that as 'fact'? Are there studies demonstrating brain mapping which proves this, or is this the conclusion you come to because of your conditioning/personal experience? I'm not being a smart alec, but I am genuinely asking what proves that 'their' faith is a different brain function than 'your' faith? I get that we're not talking about faith as belief, but how do you know that their personal experience and faith isn't a similar experience to yours? I understand how all of these things may be intertwined in the brain, and (for me) that brain mapping is such a new science that it is hard to draw many conclusions yet other than that a certain area of the brain seems to light up when certain thoughts are posed by the individual - translating all that is a long way off in my opinion. Hence why I think it is hard to draw the conclusion that somehow the extremist Muslim's brain is not thinking of faith 'properly' (that the same parts of the brain aren't lighting up as they would for your 'person of faith'). Possibly System 2 thinking is implemented to carry out what to us are atrocious acts, but I don't think the perpetrator is thinking of these acts as atrocious, indeed they are possibly thinking of them as acts of love towards Allah, so would the same area of their brain light up as if you were doing the act? But even if the inferior System 2 thinking is used to perpetrate the acts, that does not take away from the 'faith' they may experience in the first place that convinces them the act is living their life in relationship with God. You're just saying that it is not 'real' faith because it's not the type of faith you have experienced, in my opinion. I would never presume to know better than you do what your experience regarding faith is, but also I would extend that to saying I don't think you should presume to know what an extremist Muslim's experience of faith may be (unless of course you have read scientific studies that demonstrate their faith is not real faith). Expressing my opinion, as you are, should not be anymore interpreted that I know better than your words are that you 'know' proper faith and others don't. Similarly, I am not sure you are placed to describe what faith feels like to an extremist Muslim either. Perhaps I am wrong though. "Maybe you have something in your life that's really important to you -- maybe something like scuba diving or rock climbing or gardening a rare species of orchid. If you had a deep connection to scuba diving, and you knew what it feels like (not in words, but in terms of ongoing experience and knowledge and memory and learning), do you think you'd appreciate it if you read about somebody else's "opinion" about scuba diving when he or she has never learned to swim let alone scuba dive? Would it seem reasonable that others should give priority to the opinion of somebody who's only read about scuba diving over your daily experience as a scuba diver?". I have opinions and I am discussing them. Personally if my deep connections were questioned by another it wouldn't matter to me - the connection is enough for me and I doubt I would feel that I have to defend it. That said, I am not denying anybody's claim to faith and personal experience - but it is just that 'their' personal experience is not necessarily the same as the fundy Islamist or the fundy Christian (or the Buddhist, the Satanist, the atheist, or any other ist for that matter). So just to be clear - It is your opinion that I am conflating blind faith here with an experience of God particular to you. What I am actually trying to say is that i think other people (mainly extremist Muslims as far as this thread goes) probably hold their experience of faith as just as true as you do. Both parties may claim that their experience of faith is how things are 'meant to be'. Perhaps that is the result of cultural and societal conditioning, but it is my contention that the end result is the same - i.e. both parties feel they have a genuine connection to God in faith. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulS Posted June 24, 2016 Author Share Posted June 24, 2016 Just an aside Paul ... there are some who might argue that God is love, compassion and other positive attributes. others claim God is all and infinite. I think a pantheist might accept the supposedly negative aspects of humanity and include them their God as well. Similarly I being monistically inclined accept all of the universe as it is. I have been shaped to like certain parts of it more than others, but that is OK too. I love this quote from Joseph Campbell ... it just about nails it for me! But the ultimate mystical goal is to be united with one's god. With that, duality is transcended and forms disappear. There is nobody there, no god, no you. Your mind, going past all concepts, has dissolved in identification with ground of your own being, because that to which the metaphorical image of your god refers to the ultimate mystery of your own being, which is the mystery of the being of the world as well. That is what I was questioning and have probably come around to thinking Rom - that is that different people 'experience' God in different, deeply personal and convincing, ways. I think extremist Muslims probably think of God much like we understand the Old Testament God to be and I suspect the ancient Israelite considered their faith to be a very deep and personal connection to God - even when they were dashing baby's heads upon rocks and committing acts of rape and genocide. I like Joseph Campbell's quote, but if it ever caught on we probably wouldn't have a forum to discuss ideas! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulS Posted June 24, 2016 Author Share Posted June 24, 2016 I would disagree that they are experiencing the presence of God. They are most likely experiencing the presence of hate, anger, pride and the like. This is a minority of Muslims. Their actions are motivated by that hate, fear, anger, guilt and pride. Yes they are passionate about their cause but the passion is misdirected by a belief (not faith) in falsehoods or lies. Paul, what i am saying is suicide bombers have a strong belief in a god that they have been taught the same as extremists of any religion that do such things. I am not comparing 1 religion to another concerning faith. Yes, i am saying they lack the connection because that connection is founded in Love for all rather than reward for self at the expense of others. Perhaps i am mistaken but that is my experience. Faith it seems to me is known by its fruits... being love, joy, patience, kindness, peace, tolerance and the like which are found.when we are conscious of that presence. I agree they have passion and BELIEF in their god but as i said... that to me is not faith and others may disagree with my definition but to me, there is a distinction. The OT portrays a similar god but Jesus and experience seem to point elsewhere . Joseph Joseph, I respect that you experience the presence of God differently. I respect that to you, your experience is deeply personal, convincing, and of course very real. Incidentally, I also respect that for Jen. I'm not sure how anybody can say that an extremist Muslim isn't experiencing a similar faith though. After all, some of these people are prepared to kill and die for their God - how do we just write that off and say "well they aren't experiencing true faith"? Because it doesn't line up with our experience, our understanding of faith? I respect that it is your view that true faith is founded in 'love for all' but really, that is your view and experience. I suspect it is not the extremist Muslims view and experience - so why are they 'wrong'? Howbeit, most of my life is found in unconsciousness action.(programming). I could have been the suicide bomber or terrorist under the same conditions. I am no better than he/she. Which goes to my point exactly - I suspect these people feel their experience of God is just as real and genuine as yours, it's just that you have had different programming than them. Both parties probably both believe they have experienced true faith and a proper personal relationship with God. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephM Posted June 24, 2016 Share Posted June 24, 2016 (edited) Paul, Joseph, I respect that you experience the presence of God differently. I respect that to you, your experience is deeply personal, convincing, and of course very real. Incidentally, I also respect that for Jen. I'm not sure how anybody can say that an extremist Muslim isn't experiencing a similar faith though. After all, some of these people are prepared to kill and die for their God - how do we just write that off and say "well they aren't experiencing true faith"? Because it doesn't line up with our experience, our understanding of faith? I respect that it is your view that true faith is founded in 'love for all' but really, that is your view and experience. I suspect it is not the extremist Muslims view and experience - so why are they 'wrong'? Howbeit, most of my life is found in unconsciousness action.(programming). I could have been the suicide bomber or terrorist under the same conditions. I am no better than he/she. Which goes to my point exactly - I suspect these people feel their experience of God is just as real and genuine as yours, it's just that you have had different programming than them. Both parties probably both believe they have experienced true faith and a proper personal relationship with God. Paul, It is not a question of they are wrong and i am right. It is not even a question of a real or genuine experience. I have nothing to prove. My experience includes the same capacity for what some refer to as evil or the acts of the terrorist. In my best estimation the act of this terrorist was more out of hate for gays . His justification was that he was doing gods will because of his belief. There was no conscious connection with God or the Universe or whatever because if there was it would be as Rom posted of Joseph Campbell where separation disappears and only unity prevails. There is no other to kill. There.... Love has no opposite at least in my limited experience. Joseph Edited June 24, 2016 by JosephM added words Joseph Campbell and limited Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulS Posted June 24, 2016 Author Share Posted June 24, 2016 Paul, Paul, It is not a question of they are wrong and i am right. It is not even a question of a real or genuine experience. I have nothing to prove. My experience includes the same capacity for what some refer to as evil or the acts of the terrorist. In my best estimation the act of this terrorist was more out of hate for gays . His justification was that he was doing gods will because of his belief. There was no conscious connection with God or the Universe or whatever because if there was it would be as Rom posted where separation disappears and only unity prevails. There is no other to kill. There.... Love has no opposite at least in my experience. Joseph Joseph, Maybe you have nothing to prove but I am discussing whether somebody's faith is valid or not. Jen's contention, and yours, seems to be that the faith of some extremist Muslims is not true faith partly because true faith comes from love, empathy etc, and a direct, personal experience with God (that's how I understand your's and Jen's experience anyway), which clearly these extremists aren't experiencing, or at least aren't experiencing 'truly'. I am saying that I think an extreme Muslim probably thinks his faith is just as valid and convincing as yours and it is just as real, personal, and rewarding as yours, even though that faith drives him to commit what we consider abhorrent acts. I also think his brain mapping would probably represent this if indeed we were able to carry out such a study. This Orlando shooter aside (because it looks like his acts weren't driven by faith) I think the extreme Muslim is just as convinced as you are that he has/is experiencing faith in God just as you are. It's just that he has a different spin on what the results of that faith look like. His idea of love may be different to yours, but it doesn't take away from his genuine faith. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephM Posted June 24, 2016 Share Posted June 24, 2016 Of course he thinks his belief is valid. And you are right ...what i am saying cannot be proved. The experience is self-evident and one is free to examine their own mind and see it for what it is.(in a sense an illusion of separation) No book or belief system can give it to you. Its free by grace and all have it, howbeit, all are not aware. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephM Posted June 24, 2016 Share Posted June 24, 2016 Paul, I have previously re-defined the word faith as distinct from belief. If there is a problem with my definition, lets scrap it. I am not saying the terrorist Muslim doesn't have belief that he feels is valid, I don't even believe my beliefs are valid so how could they be more valid than his? I am saying it seems obvious to me from my own experience that he is only consciously connected with his brain/physical mind. In other words he is 'unconscious' and acting from that 'unconsciousness'. I am also admitting most of the time i am also 'unconscious' and capable of the same if my experiences were the same as his/her. I am not questioning or comparing the others validity. He has his place in this world of form and he is doing the best he can for his circumstances. I am not judging him. Only saying he is acting out of 'unconsciousness'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
romansh Posted June 24, 2016 Share Posted June 24, 2016 (edited) ...Love has no opposite at least in my limited experience. Some claim indifference is the opposite. In fact it is the opposite of hate also. Love and hate come from "caring" about about some particular aspect of the world. I can only love and hate actions that I care about. Complete indifference could be seen as absolute detachment. Looking at the faith discussion it seems to me similar to the no true Scotsman debate. Consciousness is a fogged up window into our immediate past, I would argue. Even an intellectual understanding falls under this description. PS happy Jāņi Edited June 24, 2016 by romansh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulS Posted June 24, 2016 Author Share Posted June 24, 2016 I have re-defined the word faith as distinct from belief. I am not saying the terrorist Muslim doesn't have belief that he feels is valid, I am saying it seems obvious to me from my own experience that he is only consciously connected with his mind. In other words he is 'unconscious' and acting from that 'unconsciousness'. I am also telling you most of the time i am also unconscious and capable of the same if my experiences were the same as his/her. I have been arguing faith as distinct to belief. Sometimes the words cross paths but what I am trying to say is that, like you, I think many extremist Muslims have their own experiences of faith with God, which although results in a different approach to life, it is probably just as real and genuine to them as your faith experience is to you. I see no evidence to the contrary that their faith experience isn't just as real and genuine to them as yours is to you. Perhaps if we were participating in an extremist Muslim Forum the debate would be exactly the same! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephM Posted June 24, 2016 Share Posted June 24, 2016 My beliefs aren't real Paul, therefore they are no more valid than his. If faith is the same thing than i am telling you my faith isn't valid so i have no quarrel with the Muslim. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephM Posted June 24, 2016 Share Posted June 24, 2016 (edited) Paul, I get your point but i think you missed mine. Whose faith is more valid doesn't enter my picture. PS If you are looking for evidence from me....go get your own Edited June 24, 2016 by JosephM PS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
romansh Posted June 24, 2016 Share Posted June 24, 2016 (edited) My beliefs aren't real Paul, therefore they are no more valid than his. If faith is the same thing than i am telling you my faith isn't valid so i have no quarrel with the Muslim. I have no quarrel with a <insert appropriate faith here> terrorist anymore than I do with a tornado or tsunami, at least intellectually speaking. An 'experience" is just that an experience. Calling that experience faith, even if it is the love of all humankind, to me does not seem what the discussion of faith is all about. Edited June 24, 2016 by romansh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulS Posted June 24, 2016 Author Share Posted June 24, 2016 Paul, I get your point but i think you missed mine. Whose faith is more valid doesn't enter my picture. PS If you are looking for evidence from me....go get your own I'm not trying to say that anyone's faith is more valid than another, I'm trying to say that faith in both camps is faith. This point was contested earlier on that 'they' aren't really experiencing faith. I beg to differ. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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