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So I'm not sure if this has been touched upon previously in another post, but I just wanted to ask because it's such a big part of my life at the moment.

 

I have a friend who is part of a church who professes to be a "prophesying" church. I just went there the other day and their Sunday service consisted of spontaneous worship with people dancing and screaming in the aisles. Pretty much doing their own thing and it was very wild. But the main thing is that this church CONFIDENTLY believes that supernatural events occur everyday within their fold and it stems from their faith in God. And they also teach a doctrine that is very much Fundamentally Evangelical, albeit with a lot more young folks in skinny jeans and beanies.

 

But my friend is a very spiritual guy who has told me face-to-face that he has performed healing miracles, demonic exorcism, and has experienced visions in which he has conversed with, wait for it...Jesus himself. My friend is probably the best guy I know: he's funny, cool, makes no effort to put up a facade of pretension, and perfectly sane. He's about as normal as you get but when we talk about these things he just lights up with joy and sometimes its hard for me to deny. He would have no reason to lie to me about these things.

 

So I guess my question is what do you guys think of the people who continue to perform miracles in the world - I'm sure you've heard the stories or met someone who's encountered it - but continue to hold on to this fundamental doctrine of "fallen world must be saved"? I have my own personal pet theory but the rest of you?

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So I'm not sure if this has been touched upon previously in another post, but I just wanted to ask because it's such a big part of my life at the moment.

 

I have a friend who is part of a church who professes to be a "prophesying" church. I just went there the other day and their Sunday service consisted of spontaneous worship with people dancing and screaming in the aisles. Pretty much doing their own thing and it was very wild. But the main thing is that this church CONFIDENTLY believes that supernatural events occur everyday within their fold and it stems from their faith in God. And they also teach a doctrine that is very much Fundamentally Evangelical, albeit with a lot more young folks in skinny jeans and beanies.

 

But my friend is a very spiritual guy who has told me face-to-face that he has performed healing miracles, demonic exorcism, and has experienced visions in which he has conversed with, wait for it...Jesus himself. My friend is probably the best guy I know: he's funny, cool, makes no effort to put up a facade of pretension, and perfectly sane. He's about as normal as you get but when we talk about these things he just lights up with joy and sometimes its hard for me to deny. He would have no reason to lie to me about these things.

 

So I guess my question is what do you guys think of the people who continue to perform miracles in the world - I'm sure you've heard the stories or met someone who's encountered it - but continue to hold on to this fundamental doctrine of "fallen world must be saved"? I have my own personal pet theory but the rest of you?

 

I'd like to make a few comments that might fall under the category of deranged;

 

  1. This style of worship may be akin to other sects in other religious in which an ecstatic state becomes a means of getting close to God. I've attended a similar church and I found the chaos to be overwhelming, but then again I grew up Presbyterian. This exact opposite!
  2. I don't know what "prophesying" church means, but I do believe in prophets. These are people who through their relationship with God gain a greater understanding of the world around them and where it might be headed, and with that understanding the seek to raise the awareness of the people around them, the country, the world, or just a friend. If it means speaking in tongues, that's of interest to me. I have two brothers, a Presbyterian minister, a Unitarian Universalist. Both progressives. and both experienced a spontaneous speaking of tongues. I thought it was utter bullsh-t until it happened to people like me. I don't really know what to make of it.
  3. Ok, now to your question. I believe in miracles. I believe that the only one that can perform one is God, though God may work it through us. There are a lot of charletons out their for sure. But I have experienced miracles in my life. I'm not sure that it even really matters if you believe that what inexplicable thing happened to you is a miracle or not. The important part is the gratitude. The miracles in my life never happened because I prayed that it would happen. Lord, give me a raise. Lord, heal my sickness. Whatever. It happens when I surrender my will and my struggles to a power greater than myself. I call it God. I think it's a miracle that I'm learning not to be so selfish after living my entire life that way. I think it's a miracle that my wife and I found our way back to each other after a separation. I think it's a miracle that I quit drinking.
  4. A little talk with Jesus. What I'm about to say may cause some eyes to roll, but that's ok. I've rolled my eyes a few times before. God speaks to me, and so does Christ. They have all kinds of ways of being in relationship with us, and that includes talking if you allow yourself to be open to it. This is essentially what a mystic is. It's someone who doesn't just meet God in the scriptures, the people in their lives, or in the music. A mystic (which your friend might be), is wired to make conscious, direct contact with God and Christ. I don't believe this will happen to everyone. It doesn't need to. No one should feel bad about not experiencing God or Christ in such a direct way. Perhaps it's best to withhold judgement with your friend and others like him.

     

    But here's the problem with all this. It's a HUGE problem. People can be deluded, and maybe I'm one of them. That can be dangerous. Perhaps this happens, when the ego is the driving force behind a person's relationship with God. We can twist, unknowingly, God's words to bend to our own desires. We can also manipulate people who are convinced we do have a direct line to God. God has never guided me to correct someone's wrongs, to fight to deny someone their rights, to condemn another human on any grounds. God is a lot more interested in my burdens, my defects, my "sin", my well being, and in teaching me to serve. And you don't have to be a mystic to surrender those things to God.

  5. Fallen world must be saved. Boy, that could mean a lot of difference things. Are we all going to Hell if we don't say some magic words? Are we born sinners and only a relationship with Jesus can fix us?

    I don't really know about the rest of the world, but I know that I've "fallen" many times and I credit God for picking me back up and dusting me off. It is my belief that we are all born absolutely perfect. And the spiritual journey is not a journey forward or up, but a journey back to our perfect childhood state. Because we, because of genes, parents, events, and choices become mired and jaded and hurtful and resentful. Maybe that's sort of what Jesus was talking about when he said that to enter the Kingdom of God (not talking about an afterlife here), we must do so as a child.

It's good to have friends who see things differently and experience things differently. What's really important is whether these things that he is saying are true. It's that he's a great friend. As you said "he's funny, cool, makes no effort to put up a facade of pretension, and perfectly sane. He's about as normal as you get but when we talk about these things he just lights up with joy and sometimes its hard for me to deny. He would have no reason to lie to me about these things."

 

""Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?"

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I speak only for myself, TDB, but I tend to think that extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence.

 

I grew up (in my teen years) in churches that believed in the "full gospel" where salvation included not only the saving of the soul, but the healing and restoration of the body. We often had "healing services". At these services, people claimed to be healed of migraines, stomach problems, loss of eyesight and/or hearing, stiffness of joints and mobility. I've even seen people get out of their walkers and wheelchairs and dance down the aisles. And I witnessed many people being set free from "demonic oppression" (because, we were told, demons could only oppress Christians, not possess them). These were indeed wonder-working miracles for me as a young person. These miracles certainly seemed to mirror the kinds of things attributed to Jesus in the gospels and it was very exciting to be in an atmosphere where God was still working today. And, like you, I found the people to usually be filled with joy, uninhibited spiritually, holding to the "God can do anything if we only have faith" attitude. It was infectious.

 

But what I noticed (over quite a long period of time) is that people eventually began to complain of things that they had supposedly be healed of. They had to come forward for further healing. Perhaps their faith in their healing failed. Or perhaps more demons beset them. But they usually returned to their eye-glasses, hearing aides, walkers, wheelchairs, and prescription drugs. So I began to question, not the goodness of the people, but the validity of the claims.

 

Furthermore, I never saw any amputees growing back arms or legs. I never saw the healers take their God-given gifts into children's cancer wards or hospitals. And I saw people who had previously been cured of cancer die. Of course, God was never to blame for these things. If miracles didn't occur or didn't permanently take, it was somehow the fault of someone who didn't have enough faith or the result of more demonic influence.

 

And I began to feel like most people had faith at least the size of a mustard seed. So that kind of ruled out the "lack of faith" scenario for me. And I wondered how strong God was if he couldn't prevent his people from being influenced by demons who were, per Christian doctrine, all defeated at the cross.

 

So, for me, I no longer believe in the claims of the miraculous which violate the laws of nature. If the claims are extraordinary, then the evidence to prove the claims should be verifiable, unquestionable, withstanding the most rigorous scrutiny. I still believe that most of the people within this branch of Christianity are good people. But I don't find that their claims of God's intervention holdup to close examination. In fact, they usually say that faith demands no evidence. I no longer have that kind of faith.

 

Good question. I hope others chime in.

Edited by BillM
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I've been to one healing service, at a Presbyterian church of all places. There were two pastors, my father and his colleague. I was suffering chronic back pain. The doctors were useless. I figured I had nothing to lose. A pastor laid on hands and prayed that I might find healing. A few days later, my finance and I went up to pick out some wedding stuff. I sat and read a magazine. In it was an article about back pain. It said that 80% of back pain is psychosomatic. It suggested having a little talk with your back. "Thank you back for trying to handle all of my stress and anxiety, but my brain is going to take over." I did it. It worked. Never hurt again.

 

So did that guy heal me? I don't think so. His prayer was that I find healing. Did God put me in the right place, at the right time, with the right magazine? That's a matter of faith. That's a choice to make. I could say, Well, all that guy did was help me think about looking for some possibility to deal with this, so I was just a little more observant. Or I could say that he prayed, I said amen, and God healed me. Or I could say that that moment unlocked my body's ability to release pain. Maybe it doesn't really matter. When the doctors failed. And I failed. I gave it up to something outside of my control. God or a deeper layer of my body or just another person. The results are the same. And gratitude is still in order. Because of my faith. I believe that God healed me and it started with my willingness to surrender the problem.

 

What you're describing, BillM, is something I struggle with as well. There are a lot of deluded or not deluded crooks out there. I do believe that there may be a few gifted individuals in the world that can raise their vibrational energy (spiritual mumbo jumbo) to a level that can heal. I also suspect that being healed doesn't give you a lifetime guarantee. Have you ever been around someone that was so full of joy and love that you felt better physically? Think about love making. Great painkiller. But that stuff goes away eventually. It doesn't last, it can't last. So yeah, the lady in the wheelchair stood up with a surge of powerful energy in the room, or in the preacher, or in herself (your belief has made you whole, Jesus said). Just like a mom can lift a car off of her child. A surge of chemicals can work temporary miracles.

 

Indulge my rambling speculations.

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I agree with you, Fatherman, that the mind and the body are inextricably linked. I do believe the some kinds of healing can come through correct thinking or meditation or some other "mind work."

 

What I dislike is the guilt that follows if a healing is not achieved or maintained.

 

As you probably know, my 4-year-old granddaughter was severely and critically injured in a car wreck last Xmas Eve. They Care-Flighted her to the nearest hospital. I drove my daughter, the child's mother, as quickly and as safely as I could to Fort Worth. My daughter is very charismatic in her faith and she was "pleading the blood of Jesus" the entire way, trusting that God would descend from heaven and heal this little girl. She died anyway.

 

Why?

 

My daughter is a devout Christian, believing that God can do anything. And we certainly had more than the "two or three gathered in My name" for Jesus to show up and heal Moriah. Was it because my daughter or one of us didn't have enough faith? Was it because my daughter or one of us has some secret sin in our lives? Was it because demons were oppressing us? Was it because it simply was God's will for Moriah to die and leave us with no answers as to why? There are certainly accounts in the gospels of Jesus healing people because of their faith. But there are also accounts of Jesus healing them simply because they were suffering and he had compassionate.

 

The problem with "healings" is that there is no guarantee and there is no "mechanism" for determining who will be healed, for how long, and why they are healed when others are not. In this sense, God becomes very capricious, very much a "respecter of persons." I, personally, find that troubling.

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The other aspect of this that is important to me is that I am a spiritual naturalist. In other words, I believe what we call God works through our natural world. I don't mean that God is behind earthquakes and hurricanes, just that I experience life, love, and being through the natural world rather than through supernatural claims. This might make me, in some sense, a deist. Because I view God this way, I would rather seek out a good doctor for my ailments than have my church pray for me. Science, to me, is a gift from God -- our ability to understand and shape our world through our senses.

 

This doesn't make me a materialist or a proponent of scientism (science is the only truth). I like to keep an open mind. But I'm not a fan of the "woo-factor" that says that God's ways are completely beyond human ken. After all, the early church claimed that Jesus somehow made "God's ways" known or revealed. And even in the gospel accounts, Jesus did fewer and fewer "miracles" as his ministry progressed. Perhaps the crowds loved the "woo-factor" but didn't want to follow his way. But, knowing my own heart, I think the biggest miracles are when we live out the gifts of the Spirit with one another. Those things may not be as flashy as healing services, but I find them more transformative and unifying.

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Good thoughts, BillM.

 

I had a thought on the way to work this morning that speaks to this guilt or sense of failure when it comes to praying for healing.

 

We don't get to choose the changes we want in our lives. And certainly cannot choose the changes in someone else's life. These attempts will fail. How often have you failed your New Year's resolutions? These attempt are driven by our own weak, egotistical, and uninformed will. It is only, in my experience, by surrendering all that I am and have to a will greater than myself (for me that is God) that change can and will occur. A change of an all knowing, all loving will. All vows and resolutions made on human will will fail eventually. We cannot improve ourselves or heal ourselves easily or for the long haul. Only God can in his own wisdom.

 

I have lived with so much guilt over my inability to correct my defects. But when I let God have a shot at it, a daily endeavor, miraculous changes have occurred and continue to occur. I'm talking about my physical defects or winning the lottery. I'm talking about deeply needed changes in my heart. There are no magic words, as others might have us believe. The words don't mean anything without honest intention or by giving up our intentions altogether!

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TheseDryBones,

 

One will never know for sure til it happen to them. I do NOT share the fundamentalist doctrine and i do not understand how healing works but as with your friend, i have experienced the same. In my experience, having a single or multiple gift doesn't imply head knowledge or that ones doctrine and dogma are anymore than conditioned or programmed beliefs.

 

Joseph

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Fatherman, the problem has always been, for me, how are we to know what God's will really is?

 

Now, Christians will say that God's will is revealed in the bible, especially in the teachings of Jesus and his apostles. For any situation in life, we can crack open our scriptures and find out what God's will is for us.

 

So let's take the issue of sickness and healing, as long as we are on that topic. If we are sick, what is God's will for us?

 

Well, though I don't have my bible with me at the moment, here is a paraphrase of what James, Jesus' brother, says is God's will for the sick: "If there is any sick among you, let him call for the elders of the church, and the prayer of faith will raise him up." This is, according to the apostle James, God's will for those who are sick. Go to church and the prayer of the elders will cure the sickness.

 

So why do Christians go to doctors and physicians? Why do they seek out and trust the same resources as the "ungodly" use. Why do they use medicine?

 

James never says to go to the doctors or to take medicine. He says that the prayer of the elders is the cure-all for sickness. So I would think it safe to say that, with few excepts, Christians DISOBEY God's will concerning sickness. This is, IMO, why most Christians, though disobeying the will of God, get over their sickness.

 

I am also not one to subscribe to the "let God do it" type of theology. My daughter, a committed Christian, smokes 3 packs of cigarettes a day. She knows the dangers. And if I try to talk to her about it, she responds, "Daddy, if God doesn't want me to smoke cigarettes, he will take away the craving." So she is a big believer in the notion that if God wants to do a thing, he will do it -- without our input or help.

 

In my studies of the gospels, I never see Jesus advocating a "sit back and relax, just trust God" attitude. He certainly believed that God was active in the world. But he seemed to advocate that we, as humans, join with God in what God is doing. So the kind of determinism that I see in Calvinistic Christianity is, IMO, a severe distortion of the teachings of Jesus. I never see him saying, "Let go and let God." His central teaching is that we love God and love one another. God, IMO, is not going to do that for us.

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Joseph, I, too, have seen some strange things. I suspect all of us have, if we are honest about it.

 

The problem arises, IMO, when we turn the "one strange thing" into what we believe is normative.

 

Ten people can have cancer. One is healed by a "miracle" and it is suddenly proclaimed, "Hallelujah, God heals!"

 

The other nine die.

 

Only the "hits" are counted. The "misses" are either ignored or written off to the mystery of God's inscrutable will.

 

If one doesn't care about human suffering, then this dilemma probably doesn't mean much. But for the other nine who die, they are left wondering why God doesn't answer their prayers or why God is punishing them for their sins. For better or worse, religion links sickness with the reward/punishment paradigm of theism. Given this paradigm, God is angry with 90% of the human population. But he will (and does) heal the 10% that he loves. I find such theology repugnant to me. Just how I see it.

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Fatherman, the problem has always been, for me, how are we to know what God's will really is?

 

Now, Christians will say that God's will is revealed in the bible, especially in the teachings of Jesus and his apostles. For any situation in life, we can crack open our scriptures and find out what God's will is for us.

 

So let's take the issue of sickness and healing, as long as we are on that topic. If we are sick, what is God's will for us?

 

Well, though I don't have my bible with me at the moment, here is a paraphrase of what James, Jesus' brother, says is God's will for the sick: "If there is any sick among you, let him call for the elders of the church, and the prayer of faith will raise him up." This is, according to the apostle James, God's will for those who are sick. Go to church and the prayer of the elders will cure the sickness.

 

So why do Christians go to doctors and physicians? Why do they seek out and trust the same resources as the "ungodly" use. Why do they use medicine?

 

James never says to go to the doctors or to take medicine. He says that the prayer of the elders is the cure-all for sickness. So I would think it safe to say that, with few excepts, Christians DISOBEY God's will concerning sickness. This is, IMO, why most Christians, though disobeying the will of God, get over their sickness.

 

I am also not one to subscribe to the "let God do it" type of theology. My daughter, a committed Christian, smokes 3 packs of cigarettes a day. She knows the dangers. And if I try to talk to her about it, she responds, "Daddy, if God doesn't want me to smoke cigarettes, he will take away the craving." So she is a big believer in the notion that if God wants to do a thing, he will do it -- without our input or help.

 

In my studies of the gospels, I never see Jesus advocating a "sit back and relax, just trust God" attitude. He certainly believed that God was active in the world. But he seemed to advocate that we, as humans, join with God in what God is doing. So the kind of determinism that I see in Calvinistic Christianity is, IMO, a severe distortion of the teachings of Jesus. I never see him saying, "Let go and let God." His central teaching is that we love God and love one another. God, IMO, is not going to do that for us.

In my experience, God's will is not something that we will ever necessarily know except by the changes that occur in our hearts when we surrender to God's Will. I'm not sure about God's Will when it comes to events and stuff like that. My only conscious experience with it are changes that I feel that God has made in me when I gave up on my own failed attempts to change and turned it over to God. And the change that is made in me is rarely the change that I'm desiring. It is the "desiring" that gets in the way. What is God desiring? Which would I rather have in my life? What I desire or what God desires? That's a choice will all have to make. These are the question of God's Will that make sense to me.

Edited by fatherman
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Fatherman, the fact of the matter is that you and I aren't going to see eye to eye on this subject. I don't believe that God is in control of us and everything that happens in our world. I don't believe our world is going along according to some divine will.

 

Having said that, most of scripture does support the view that God is "sovereign" or "lord" and "God works all things together for good (but only of those who love him." There is even a verse that says that if evil befalls a city, God has done it. God does what God wants to do. He doesn't consult us. He sends hurricane Katrina to punish New Orleans. He invents AIDS to punish homosexuals. He killed my granddaughter in a car accident and I have no right to question his will. Whom am I to say to the Creator, "Why hast Thou created the world this way?" I am but dust and clay.

 

This is precisely why I am a non-theist. ;)

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Bill,

 

I certainly have no argument with the statistics. Everyone is not healed that is prayed for but that does not change the fact that some are. Nor does it say that healing is not available. I personally wouldn't attempt to answer the reason why. I would only testify that there is a gift of healing and that when one is, so to speak, ' tuned to that power' and an unction (as in a spiritual fervor) is present, a force of sorts flows and healing most often, in my experience, happens. For me to say more would be speaking from my lack of knowledge.

 

Joseph

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Joseph,

 

How, then, does your approach to healing benefit those seeking it?

 

My brother-in-law has been diagnosed with cancer in his kidneys. He is a Catholic and believes in God. So if he was to ask you about whether or not God would heal him of cancer, what would your response be? Would you tell him, as you've said, that some people are healed and that healing is available to him if he tunes to that power?

 

Now, please hear me on this: I don't doubt for one minute that such could happen. He could indeed tune to that power and receive healing. I don't deny that. It is possible.

 

But I am far more concerned about probabilities than possibilities. Sure, God could possibly heal my brother-in-law. But it is far more probable that his healing will come from medicine and surgery. In fact, he is pursuing medical solution right now, even though he is a Christian. Why is this so? Because the odds of him being cancer-free increase dramatically with proven science rather than with trusting in the one-in-a-million chance "possibility" of a miraculous healing. That's why most people, even Christians, turn to doctors instead of the church when they are sick.

 

Again, I'm not denying that sometimes healings happen. But the fact is that almost every person knows that medical science is far more effective in dealing with sickness than prayer to a God who might, if the right words are said coupled with the correct amount of faith, heal someone if he happens to be in a good mood that day. :)

 

Bill

Edited by BillM
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Fatherman, the fact of the matter is that you and I aren't going to see eye to eye on this subject. I don't believe that God is in control of us and everything that happens in our world. I don't believe our world is going along according to some divine will.

 

Having said that, most of scripture does support the view that God is "sovereign" or "lord" and "God works all things together for good (but only of those who love him." There is even a verse that says that if evil befalls a city, God has done it. God does what God wants to do. He doesn't consult us. He sends hurricane Katrina to punish New Orleans. He invents AIDS to punish homosexuals. He killed my granddaughter in a car accident and I have no right to question his will. Whom am I to say to the Creator, "Why hast Thou created the world this way?" I am but dust and clay.

 

This is precisely why I am a non-theist. ;)

You are misunderstanding me. I do not believe God is in control of us at all. I believe that if we leave behind our egos and self-willing desires and surrender, that God can work with us. If we choose not to do this, I believe that God will do very little with us. And by doing for us, willing for us, I do not believe God will necessarily give us instructions or something. God will change our hearts in a way that frees us up to be better servants to the world.

 

EDIT: When I started doing this, I was very afraid that God would send me here or there or something like that, but what I'm finding is that what God is doing is removing things in me that are impeding my ability to serve, and replacing it with new desires to serve. If that new desire is to feed the hungry in Latin America, then it will be because I have a strong desire to do it. Or if God wants me to take better care of my family, it won't be my trying and struggling and resenting it, it will be because I want nothing more in the world to do it. This is my understanding of how God's Will works for me.

Edited by fatherman
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I think I understand better, Fatherman. I'm glad what you're finding works well for you.

 

But I, personally, cannot surrender to someone whom I don't trust, and I don't trust God as God is presented in the bible. On the whole, I don't find him to be good or moral or fair. There are "better notions" of God presented in the Christian scriptures, but it is all mixed together with the other notions of God commanding genocide, destroying the world, killing babies, wanting a human sacrifice, enjoying the scent of burning flesh, creating hell, and destroying his enemies rather than forgiving them. So I don't trust the goodness of this particular God or the claims of his love for creation when he has done so much to harm it or to ignore its pleas for help or mercy.

 

Yet, if you are finding another understanding of God that works for you, I applaud that 100%.

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BillM. I'm not a fan of anybody, including the Bible, defining God for me, either. Nor would I want anyone to define who my wife is to me. I've learned who she is by being married to her for 22 years. Remember that story about the blind men and the elephant? One guy has the leg, the other the tail, the other the trunk. So an elephant is different for all of them. That's kind of how I see it. I've never met the war God, or the vengeful God, if indeed there ever was such a God. That God is named Jehovah. Then there is the aspect of God (or perhaps another God altogether) named Elohim - God of Creation. Then there's God the Father whom we know through the stories of Jesus.

 

Same God, different limbs?

 

I do not know. What I believe, though, is that God will reveal himself to me in whatever way or form and on whatever timeline that he chooses. Whether it is a way that makes sense to me or in a way that goes against what I believe; otherwise, I'm just making a God. And I'm not really that good at making a power greater greater than me.

 

And like you said, and maybe it's most important, it's working for me.

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Joseph,

 

How, then, does your approach to healing benefit those seeking it?

 

My brother-in-law has been diagnosed with cancer in his kidneys. He is a Catholic and believes in God. So if he was to ask you about whether or not God would heal him of cancer, what would your response be? Would you tell him, as you've said, that some people are healed and that healing is available to him if he tunes to that power?

 

Now, please hear me on this: I don't doubt for one minute that such could happen. He could indeed tune to that power and receive healing. I don't deny that. It is possible.

 

But I am far more concerned about probabilities than possibilities. Sure, God could possibly heal my brother-in-law. But it is far more probable that his healing will come from medicine and surgery. In fact, he is pursuing medical solution right now, even though he is a Christian. Why is this so? Because the odds of him being cancer-free increase dramatically with proven science rather than with trusting in the one-in-a-million chance "possibility" of a miraculous healing. That's why most people, even Christians, turn to doctors instead of the church when they are sick.

 

Again, I'm not denying that sometimes healings happen. But the fact is that almost every person knows that medical science is far more effective in dealing with sickness than prayer to a God who might, if the right words are said coupled with the correct amount of faith, heal someone if he happens to be in a good mood that day. :)

 

Bill

 

Bill,

I have nothing to tell your brother-in-law. I do not understand how healing works. I do not advise people to take or not take medical treatment. I only know that when someone comes to me and says they are seeking healing from God that there are times when i know in advance that they are ready to receive it and i feel an unction to allow compassion to flow...so to speak... so that a healing takes place in them. I don't know how i know... just that i know and a feeling of knowing without doubt swells up within me and something happens in them that i can feel as if there is no separation between us. Sometimes i can just declare it and it is done, sometimes i feel led to touch them and sometimes i feel led to ask them to do something.

 

I have experienced 4 of the gifts the NT speaks of so i accept them as true being the gift of tongues, the word of knowledge, the gift of faith and the gift of healing. While i remain ignorant of the why and how, never-the-less they are true to me and work through me (or in spite of me :) ).

 

Joseph

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