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The Universe Unfolding And Our Part In It.


PaulS
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A not uncommon theme on this forum is that we are 'one' with the universe. We are intimately entwined in the universe, not two separate entities but us and everything else, all as one. Some comments to reinforce this have been 'everything is as it should be'.

 

My confusion with this arises from our life as it exists now. There are things going on in this world that would seem to harm and cause angst. There are things that contribute nothing to love and in fact to the opposite effect, contribute to hate, anger and violence.

 

If the universe is one and acting exactly how it's meant to act, then my logic suggests that all the 'evil' things that are happening are meant to happen. Cruelty, hate, war, paedophilia, crime, racism, homophobia, etc etc, are all the universe at work aren't they?

 

If I have that understanding correct (and maybe I don't) then shouldn't we simply let all these things happen and not get involved?

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Hello again,

 

First of all we need to get away from this attitude 'the devil makes bad things, happen' An all powerful God would not cast out, if we go by the story, an angel knowing he would go on to cause all types of destruction. to me the whole war in heaven was a human invention as it's human nature to take side, most siding with good over evil. On the other hand Iv'e heard Satanists say the war was God trying to keep Satan in heaven not throw him out. Both of these attitudes point to me thinking it was man made.

 

Ok you may say I still haven't given a good answer, i will try, life to me (only my opinion) is a way of getting the spirit or soul ready for the next life, that's my answer to what's the meaning of life, learning from day one it's better to be good than bad, then the hard part of trying to put it into action in the world we live.

 

The bad things you list are of human doing and we should turn to the social sciences to explain them, why do some men/women like children sexual, it's built into them from the start, something triggers it in life, why does God lets these things happen the best answer I can think of is free will God has given us, free will to do good or bad, which puts doubts into the minds of christians , it did for me, I think he dosen't let things happen, he lets the world move along by itself, and bad things are part of good life. that's ok for the people not getting abused, some would say, but what about those that are, they need treatment or locking away for life, which still doesn't answer the question God could stop it why doesn't he.

 

I can only answer it's back to the free will of doing good or bad, but those who continue to do bad will get punished by getting what they want the, next life away from God, Eternity to reflect on was that crime worth this emptiness now. Wandering and lonely souls with no point.

 

One of the hardest questions a christian will have to answer is why did God let my son/daughter get abused. And without an answer I really want to go back to basics and start knocking heads together.

 

Your last question, I think we should get involved to show goodness and a better way to live, showing love, which can be shown in many ways, turning a family member into the law if you know they have commited a crime against someone, is one.

 

But by getting involved and doing good, we are showing by example, and pleasing God also. We did not get any real answers I'm very sorry, all I can say is God know what he's/she's doing.

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A not uncommon theme on this forum is that we are 'one' with the universe. We are intimately entwined in the universe, not two separate entities but us and everything else, all as one. Some comments to reinforce this have been 'everything is as it should be'.

 

 

 

 

I would say at the deepest level, we are one with the universe. Also that 'everything is as it is' and add AT THIS MOMENT IN TIME. "Should be" to me insinuates a judgment on my part and denies reality so i would personally refrain from that word.

 

 

 

 

My confusion with this arises from our life as it exists now. There are things going on in this world that would seem to harm and cause angst. There are things that contribute nothing to love and in fact to the opposite effect, contribute to hate, anger and violence.

 

To me , all those things are part of the evolution of mankind on his/her journey to the highest form of consciousness . The one end contains base things such as shame, guilt, apathy, grief and fear and progresses through desire , anger, and pride which sets the stage for courage, neutrality,, and acceptance leading to reason. This leads to Love, then peace then joy and finally enlightenment. The universe being neither inherently good or bad except in the eye of the beholder seems to me to be unfolding in this manner.

 

 

 

If the universe is one and acting exactly how it's meant to act, then my logic suggests that all the 'evil' things that are happening are meant to happen. Cruelty, hate, war, paedophilia, crime, racism, homophobia, etc etc, are all the universe at work aren't they?

 

They are to me, indeed a product of the evolution of consciousness and the myriad of choices that entails.

 

 

 

f I have that understanding correct (and maybe I don't) then shouldn't we simply let all these things happen and not get involved?

 

On the contrary, while apathy, fear and the like may dictate such a response....... to me, courage, reason and Love themselves insist we get involved.

 

 

Joseph

Edited by JosephM
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A not uncommon theme on this forum is that we are 'one' with the universe. We are intimately entwined in the universe, not two separate entities but us and everything else, all as one. Some comments to reinforce this have been 'everything is as it should be'.

 

My confusion with this arises from our life as it exists now. There are things going on in this world that would seem to harm and cause angst. There are things that contribute nothing to love and in fact to the opposite effect, contribute to hate, anger and violence.

 

If the universe is one and acting exactly how it's meant to act, then my logic suggests that all the 'evil' things that are happening are meant to happen. Cruelty, hate, war, paedophilia, crime, racism, homophobia, etc etc, are all the universe at work aren't they?

 

If I have that understanding correct (and maybe I don't) then shouldn't we simply let all these things happen and not get involved?

 

I would echo Joseph's comments on the use of everything is as it should be.

 

Ultimately I don't think we choose our wills, desires,wants, beliefs etc consciously. We somehow take them onboard. For example I chose to come to Canada and thought about it way back when. My passport and career made it relatively easy. Where did my desire to come to Canada come from? And yet I feel I made the choice consciously and planned for it. Where did my desire come from?

 

Meant to act ... again where does meaning come from? I think it is trite to say we give our lives meaning, whatever it is that is a simplification. Does the an unfolding universe have meaning, other than the meaning the unfolding universe has given me to give it? Yes the 'bad' things are universe unfolding. I would build a levee on a flooding river the same way I would lock up a pedophile.

 

Getting involved or for that matter not getting both are actions and both will have reactions. We all take on a model of the universe (or perhaps a worldview). We will live that worldview, one way or another.

 

In the meantime ... if free will is false and the universe is monistic in nature, then I think we cam deduce that the self, consciousness, the division between life and nonlife, meaning/purpose and morality are illusory at least to some degree.

 

As the unverse unfolds we will walk our paths. We might think we have chosen that path, but that choice is not what it seems. I think one of our problems is that language by its very nature is a dualistic but useful concept. And here I am trying to explain a monistic concept using dualism

Edited by romansh
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So Rom, would you accept that it is the universe at work for one person to try and convince another they should change their ways? The other person's non-free will may require that they stay their course and not change ways. Both people are carrying out their respective 'universe unfolding' journeys. So both are fulfilling their 'roles' in the universe? It would seem then that whether our will is free or not, it is irrelevant to how our lives are carried out.

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Paul,

 

It seems to me that your statement above is true. It is somewhat irrelevant whether we say our will is free or not.. Yet, perhaps, one must keep in mind that our ways will change over time because each consequence of actions contributes in some way to modify or influence future choices and actions.

 

Once i was sitting in contemplative thought and had a moment of 'seeing' or epiphany as some might say. And from that i wrote this which i am certain i have said here before.

 

 

There are those who are here to make war and are fighters. There are those who will kill and those to be killed. There are farmers who live to make food. There are politicians who make politics and financiers who make money. There are those who live off their labor and those who live off of others. There are those who are hungry and those who are full. There are those who play games and those who are serious. There are those who save the trees and earth; there are those who save the animals. There are those that take and those who give. There are those who speak and those who are silent. There are leaders and flocks; there are priests and the sage. Each according to his appointment it seems. A most wonderful dance is seen of the universe, with nary a dust speck out of place.

 

What more can I say of these things seen; who source is not readily apparent. Existence itself will speak of the truth as I sit dumbfounded in awe.

 

Joseph

 

PS I believe Jesus is recorded saying "And even the very hairs of your head are all numbered" While i am not speaking for or against predestination i am saying that perhaps there seems to me to be an inevitability that over time arrives from actions and consequences which perhaps takes a "fullness of times.".

Edited by JosephM
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So Rom, would you accept that it is the universe at work for one person to try and convince another they should change their ways? The other person's non-free will may require that they stay their course and not change ways. Both people are carrying out their respective 'universe unfolding' journeys. So both are fulfilling their 'roles' in the universe? It would seem then that whether our will is free or not, it is irrelevant to how our lives are carried out.

 

That seems an accurate description of my experience of this particular aspect of the universe. But if we are simply manifestations of the universe unfoldinf, is it worth working out for your 'non self' what it all means?

 

Is this not ultimately the Hindu concept of Dharma ... a duty to live one's life?

 

Campbell discussing dharma ...

You perform your duty to support the universe. The universe is alive. The Sun performs its duty, the Moon performs its duty, the mice perform their duty and cats perform theirs, the brahmins perform theirs, the sudras theirs, and by this - everyone performing his duty - the universe is held in form. By following your dharma you hold the universe in form.

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All of creation exists inside the mind of God, to me free will is real and is the manifestation of the energy straight from the source, that source being God. We are a spirit of universal energy created by an eternal being who, always was, is and will be. We are true beings, and are certainly not insignificant, especially in the eyes of God. Why would God create insignificant beings, for what purpose. Life has a very real meaning and it's not get a job, get married , have sex etc.

 

Life to me is an experience within an experience, meaning a spirit of energy inside what we refer to as a flesh and blood shell. and what earlier cultures could not understand, with the exclusion of Gnostic Christians, was how to process the whole Jesus experience. So stories got past down from the Jewish leaders, in the only way that they knew, their language, their culture. that's the reason people don't get Christianity today, people can't relate to a past culture, with a modern day life.

 

Not to get off point, the experiences we go through in life both good and bad, are just that experiences, tell that to a child getting held down and raped, the only way an insignificant mind of a human being can act is ultimate in a bad way, the energy in a person like that has been corrupted by negative forces flowing all through the universe, not understanding what life is, they act the way corrupted energy flows through them, I stress the point, but not overwhelm others ideas, that this live is not real in the sense what most people think like, just look at an average persons, life drink down the pub, a quickie and steal music from the net, God would not create such beings, the universe would not spawn out creatures made of dust and particles for no real reason, everything needs to play it's part for the universe to be whole, both bad and good, the ultimate source of life God and we are small bits of energy, created or set free from him in his image.

 

Free will is explained in my opinion, by our thoughts and feelings taking on a life of there own, made up of universal energy, that could not exist without the source God, free will exists in the same way we do created by the source, then manipulated by our surroundings, not just this world but beyond the universe as a whole. I s free will real, Yes , but not in the ways most think about it, it's part of the universe and part of the whole creation all coming from the source.

 

Every action has a reaction, true but again not in the way most people think, energy and matter coming into contact produce actions and then reactions, so where is our part to play in this, chain of events, our emotions , feelings etc, are part action and part reaction and collide with all other actions and reactions always in motion throughout the whole process, if I was a second too soon or late you have heard people say, without realizing they are talking of forces that don't have a concious and therefore like a virus just act until another process a cure halts that action and sends things on a completly new course, events don't stop they merley change form or direction, energy is constantly flowing all around us and in us, you have heard the world is in Gods hands, and we are made in his image, we and the universe are made by him and set in motion by energy, which is truely God Him/Herself.

 

The process of going through this experience we call life is to centre that energy, we can't change or stop it as I explained, but we can balance ourselves with it and experience a higher form of life , that early Christians have taught to this day as heaven.

 

Thank you

Bryan.

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Jesus is the only way God could of shown what pure love is like to the human eye, as most need to see proof, really unaware that to truly see one must open his mind and seperate it from this world and all earthly things, to turn the cheek was misinterepreted throught the ages by giving the soft approach to people undermining their intelligence, when they should of been teaching the forces of hurt and emotional pain are only in this life and happen to this state of mind.

 

These earthly emotions don't mean anything when one seperates themselves from them and looks to a place beyond the basic human view of life. I know of Christians who sold their possions, car, tv etc and gone back to a more primitive way of life. Forces that interact with each other sometimes leave bad energy or maybe karma as a result of the collision or meeting, which then goes on to grow in the only way it has been directed in, where did these forces come from, energy exists and is created by a source, it doesn't have to be the true source any type of energy can create energy off itself, then that in a way takes on a life of it's own, but without a concious driving it in one or another direction, To me the world or even in more smaller terms people, animals couldn't exist without energy the life spark, we fit into that energy as we are of the energy, to truly find God one must examine themselves, before looking outwards into the universe and find that energy spark within and that is where I think God is in us all comes from.

 

Should we get involved, I believe we have no choice being part of things already,

 

Does this energy I speak of just do it's own thing can't we intervene, Yes we can, by sending energy in a different direction, therefore changing events.

 

How do we do that, Physically or the Energy of prayer, Prayer is a way of connecting with the ultimate energy or creator.

 

We are part of the universe and even though it seems to be doing it's own thing, we are partly responsible for how things work out.

 

Good will always be the bigger part of the energy, and that good can only come from one ultimate source, God. Bad feelings, hate anger, etc are just residue from bad energy one who is always seeking beyond the stars for an answer will find one mabye not in this life, but maybe in the next form of the spirit energy.

 

Predestination has God already chose thsoe that will go to heaven and all events been willed by God before the beginning of time, I answer no, why because God is energy and energy can change when mixed with other energy, God knows this and knew things would change along the way. Also it's not really love if not open for everyone, Jesus would not have had to die for us if the people were already choosen. Find that energy spark inside of you and let Gods goodness guide you in all ways of right, then start looking out to the stars for a more complex answer to your questions.

 

God bless you all, and keep searching, we are Gods children and all he wants is us home with him (I don't mean dead I mean our minds at peace), safe from the horrors of the universe.

 

Jesus on behalf of all of us here and worldwide, We THANK YOU so much.

 

Bryan (a student of Christian Mysticism, I lose myself in the Gospel of John a Jewish Mystic as most of you know Bishop Spong said.)

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No, but God can give free will is the short answer, free will being just another form of some type of energy, or just another creation

 

To me free will is a creation of a specific certain chain of events of energies interacting with each other and, also it must have a source or beginning, that is God. As God has always been without a creator, he/she is beyond all things that are made, free will being one of them.

 

God can function without free will as being outside of all natural laws and supernatural laws , which were created by God, also God being outside of what we would class as 'life', free will is a living energy, that would not exist without interaction in some form or another. And as I would say God is neither dead or alive, God just is, meaning God would not need a created energy, to somehow exist, existing outside of every avenue of study us humans are capable of, that's why no science experiement will ever be able to prove God or not. Another way to put it, God just happens in a universal good way, without the need for any sort of created source to guide him/her along.

 

(please wait for my book to come out 'Are we really alive')

 

God would not need free will which in my opinion can only be a part of a living thing with some type of mind.. God is ultimate beyond such titles as alive or dead. Free will is a very small part of all the energies around us and given to us by God. God being nothing and everything both life and death, and free will mearly being a tool to be used, by other energies interacting with it.

 

 

Free will is not human choice it is a process of matter mixing with energy and interacting with chemicals in our brains, which then interpret how our actions and reactions will be done. (not as it is in heaven) but in the universe around us. It is not free in the basic human sense as it is given to us from a previous chain of actions and reactions, but free in the sense that we can change events, according to how a person would like to see the outcome of a situation, by redirecting energy using physical actions, therefore changing the world around you, by changing energy. So free will being a real process of energy that can have and show results for our own eyes, A real result that you can see and measure, a scientist would say then it's real. Free will is real as it is made from energy, but not real in the sense of people thinking I did that, or I made a change, no all you did was redirect energy using another form of energy free will.

 

Apologies for the shameless plug of my in the works book.

 

Thank you for the question.

 

Bryan.

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Thank you for being a gentleman in our short but worth while, debate romansh, I agree our paths are leading in two different directions to find answers.

 

That's the key point for any debate agree on the definition of what the subject is then debate. And thanks Paul for letting me get some of my personal views out there.

 

 

Bryan. (A fallen spirit saved by grace)

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A not uncommon theme on this forum is that we are 'one' with the universe. We are intimately entwined in the universe, not two separate entities but us and everything else, all as one. Some comments to reinforce this have been 'everything is as it should be'.

 

My confusion with this arises from our life as it exists now. There are things going on in this world that would seem to harm and cause angst. There are things that contribute nothing to love and in fact to the opposite effect, contribute to hate, anger and violence.

 

If the universe is one and acting exactly how it's meant to act, then my logic suggests that all the 'evil' things that are happening are meant to happen. Cruelty, hate, war, paedophilia, crime, racism, homophobia, etc etc, are all the universe at work aren't they?

 

If I have that understanding correct (and maybe I don't) then shouldn't we simply let all these things happen and not get involved?

 

 

....................................

Getting involved is the universe at work also, however, involvement is optional. Not getting involved is the universe at work.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Getting involved is the universe at work also, however, involvement is optional. Not getting involved is the universe at work.

 

 

 

 

Greetings Larry,

 

Welcome to the forum. Good point. It seems each according to his/her role in this drama we call life.

 

Joseph

 

PS Perhaps you might be so kind to post a short introduction thread as is customary HERE.

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Larry saidsnapback.png

Getting involved is the universe at work also, however, involvement is optional. Not getting involved is the universe at work.

Romansh said

Exactly ... Inaction is an action too.

 

I can't agree most with the two statements above. I inhale, pause and then exhale, pause. One action or four actions couting the two pauses as actions is just the way things are on this plane of existence. In physics, energy is a property of matter and is exchanged among objects through interactions that make changes in form, but never is created or destroyed. We see in matter many actions taking place in these exchanges even thou there is no visible action. These interactions carry vibrations, exchange electrons, atoms and information and are the part of our being that broadcasts, tracks and chronicles our thoughts and activities. It is essential for health because it acts as a go-between connecting the internal and external spheres of influence. Found in every expression of the universe at all stages and interludes, from plain and simple matter to the most advanced sublime life forms we see energy expressing itself. It displays motion, gravitation and magnetism as the functions of our body, nerves, and powers of thought. The sum total of all forces in creation whether they are spiritual, mental or physical settle down to rest in their original state so to act or not to act; to be or not to be is just a question. It is not a moral question, it is just a question to act or not, to be or not to be, which does not matter because we established that there is action in nonaction so the key is to know oneself to anser the question whether to let the energy express or watch energy express itself, either way information is exchanged and we learn, which is a positive thing even if pain was invovled. No need to label good or bad because the energy, action in the universe just is or is not. One person labels something good and at another perspective the same action is labled bad, but in reality it is just energy expressing itself, which can be confusing when I was young I jumped and twitched at each lable so I choose in my old age to settle myself down towards my original state of energy and enjoy the dance without all the work to lable each move.

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Yes, Soma. Yes. Understanding that we are part of this universe is one starting point to the flow of it all. It can be difficult to go beyond good and evil. There can be a knee-jerk reaction of moral judgement. "Without clear delineation of good and evil we have no moral compass," they say. Answer: right and wrong does not cease to exist. It is just the opinion that one is better than the other that fades away.

 

I heard a story once. In a warring country, the army rounded up citizens to impress into action. The father lied and said his son whom the army sought had gone away. (Lie is wrong.) But it saved his son. (Good) While hiding from the army in the woods, the son broke his arm. (Bad) He walked to the nearest house and stayed they while the maiden who lived there tended to him for five days. They fell in love and got married. (Good) Their house burned down (Bad), so while walking to the nearest town, they found a fortune of gold. (Good) With the money, they bought a fancy home. (Good) The first child they had was impress in the army at age 16. (Bad)

 

It's a circle or a river or a speck of dust on the wind.

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It is just the opinion that one is better than the other that fades away.

 

I think this is fine in hypotheticals or low risk situations, but how does say paedophilia sit on your scale, Larry? Isn't even having an opinion in the first place the universe at work?

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Soma

When a pendulum swings and reaches a peak on either side, it has stored it's energy as potential energy despite it's velocity being zero. A weight on a table presses down on that table.

 

What you call inaction is an arbitrary frame of reference.

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It is just the opinion that one is better than the other that fades away.

 

I think this is fine in hypotheticals or low risk situations, but how does say paedophilia sit on your scale, Larry? Isn't even having an opinion in the first place the universe at work?

For the most part what I think of as good and bad coincide with what I like and dislike.
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It is just the opinion that one is better than the other that fades away.

 

I think this is fine in hypotheticals or low risk situations, but how does say paedophilia sit on your scale, Larry? Isn't even having an opinion in the first place the universe at work?

 

Discard comparisons and a tree is just a tree, not better or worse than another tree. Pedophilia is wrong. In God's eyes, it is not worse than any other sin. He does not compare, or so I have been told.

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good afternoon to all of you,

 

I do believe things happen as supposed to but that does not mean we have no choice, we were given free will. When your path is laid out you will only see the little part of it which you as a human can see. Imagine yourself watching a parade, what will you see? just the part that is happening right in front of you, now what would you see when you would be high up in the air? you would see beginning and end and even before and after that. I think all things happen for a reason, cause and effect, as we invented time there can be a long stretch between cause and effect, a seed you plant might only have results ( neg or pos) in years, when you have forgotten all about it. So all the negativity today, in my view, is planted maybe recent, maybe a long time ago, we do have the choice at every moment to choose to let the light in, the result of this might take years too, we in our lifetime might never even notice this. I believe (my opinion so please take no offence) when we all choose for the light, when we transform in beings of love and light, this will be the second coming, also think we still have a long way to go, bless you all, may the light be with you

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For the most part what I think of as good and bad coincide with what I like and dislike.

 

But are they good/bad because you like/dislike them, or because they are good/bad?

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