Live & Let Live?

[PaulS]

Should we do so when we know how harmful certain beliefs and indoctrination can be?

 

Should we stand against fundamental Christianity when we have experienced the harm it can cause, or should we let fundy's continue to live their beliefs as they see fit, and continue to push those beliefs and/or indoctrinate children, without voicing a contrary opinion?

[romansh]

Should we do so when we know how harmful certain beliefs and indoctrination can be?

 

Should we stand against fundamental Christianity when we have experienced the harm it can cause, or should we let fundy's continue to live their beliefs as they see fit, and continue to push those beliefs and/or indoctrinate children, without voicing a contrary opinion?

 

Is standing for what we believe standing against what another believes?

 

Incidently in the scientific arena it perfectly OK to say I think Theory Z is wrong because we have evidence, a, b, c, d ... . Science thrives on comparing evidence to the theory.

 

Surely we are not suggesting NOMA?

Edited May 11, 2014 by romansh

[JosephM]

Hi Paul,

 

it seems to me like a difficult question to answer. My daughter and family are very active in a fundamental Baptist church . When i do attend on special occasions where my grandkids are participating in a program i cringe at the words that are spoken and come out of their mouth. The indoctrination teachings they are exposed to seems like brain-washing to me.. However, it is beyond my control and i am presently convinced that any opposing view i might entertain with them unless solicited, might serve only to segregate our relationship.

 

It does seem perplexing at times but i find peace in my experience of seeing that in time, truth surfaces of its own accord when the subject is ready. If they ask my opinion, i certainly would not hesitate to respond but that has not been the case and they are already aware from my books of alternate views.

 

They are not activists or extremists in their actions even though one may classify their belief system as so. Basically, they are loving parents doing what they believe is right or best for their children. They are also a help for good to their community. They don't seem to be forceful in pushing their views on others and even though they may have a strong opinion on God and gays and would have little to do with them, they don't seem to wish them harm but rather pray for them. (My one brother is gay and they have kept their belief to themselves concerning him) I would not put too much weight on what they say they belief but more on their actions. As long as they are not harmful i would echo "live and let live"

 

Joseph

[romansh]

A quote from Joseph Campbell:

“You yourself are participating in evil, or you are not alive. Whatever you do is evil to someone. This is one of the ironies of creation.”

Edited May 11, 2014 by romansh

[Pete]

I can only say what works for me. I cannot say what works for another and I do not feel that is my place to do so. Sure I shudder at some of the things some of fundamentalism does but I also see the comfort it brings when people are suffering or in need. Should I take that from them? I do not think so. I am just happy with saying that their voice is not the only one around and if your unhappy with it then we are here too.

That said I found the late Fred Phelp's (Westboro) stand difficult to ignore with his declarations of "God hates f-a-g-s" and his picketing soldiers funerals whilst their relatives grieve. Yet, I have found even among fundamentalism few support his view because it lacks love and respect for others. I remember how sore I felt when my conservative church attacked me but hey, I came out alright (IMO). I do not feel there is much point in attacking the faith of another as I believe it only hardens it in my experience. I find it important however to point out that there are other opinions here. That is one of the reasons I feel it is important that voices like this forum and others get heard as it is there to catch people when they find it is time to change themselves and to say well conservatives may have an opinion but it aint the only one there and you have as much right to your opinion as they do. All is not lost. Come and talk with us.

[NORM]

Should we do so when we know how harmful certain beliefs and indoctrination can be?

 

Should we stand against fundamental Christianity when we have experienced the harm it can cause, or should we let fundy's continue to live their beliefs as they see fit, and continue to push those beliefs and/or indoctrinate children, without voicing a contrary opinion?

 

The sections of the Christian Testament that I admire most are those that encourage us to act in ways that reveal hope and embrace all that is good within us and around us (Philippians chapter 4 comes to mind as well as segments of the Sermon on the Mount).

 

Rather than condemn small-mindedness, we ought to embrace inclusiveness and those things that celebrate diversity and the evolution of humanity to greater things.

 

Paul, the signature at the bottom of your posts by Marianne Williamson encapsulates this idea:

 

 

 

"...as we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same. As we are liberated from our own fear, our presence automatically liberates others.”

 

As for me, I attempt to accomplish this through my writing. My first novel, Tea Party (found here: http://www.amazon.com/Tea-Party-Jensen-Michaels-Cordell-ebook/dp/B00JPV5BBI) is my attempt to convey this notion in an enjoyable format.

 

The underlying theme of the novel is that we are stronger when we work together rather than tearing each other apart.

 

NORM

[soma]

I think we speak out when we can and when we will be heard and witness when we can't.

[PaulS]

Rom,

 

I don't think everything is able to be scientifically verified beyond doubt. For instance, I could probably make a fairly good scientific argument that child abuse impacts negatively on the victim's adult life, but there are perhaps also victims that are not harmed.

 

Similarly, there are many instances of religiously indoctrinated children carrying harmful religious baggage throughout their life, and others who don't carry such baggae, even though both have turned their back on the religion they were indoctrinated into.

 

Paul

[PaulS]

I like the notion Norm, that we're better off just being a 'witness' if you like, to others and letting them come around in time. I guess my question is more considering the influence such religion has on children which in turn become the next generation of decision-making adults.

 

Should we stay silent and let people teach their children that homosexuality is sin and evil and that such people are practising evil for instance?

 

I'm not suggesting 'thought' police but I am asking if there is a line to be drawn where we say such beliefs and indoctrinating children into them should NOT be a case of just "live and let live"? I mean I doubt anyone here would accept that we should let people teach their children that blacks are only good for slavery or that a child best learns how to have sex if it first has sex with its parent, so why the difference?

[romansh]

Rom,

 

I don't think everything is able to be scientifically verified beyond doubt. For instance, I could probably make a fairly good scientific argument that child abuse impacts negatively on the victim's adult life, but there are perhaps also victims that are not harmed.

 

Similarly, there are many instances of religiously indoctrinated children carrying harmful religious baggage throughout their life, and others who don't carry such baggae, even though both have turned their back on the religion they were indoctrinated into.

 

Paul

 

Paul

Your first sentence carries a major misunderstanding (sadly even amongst scientists sometimes). Science does not provide answers that are beyond doubt and uncertainty. Science generally provides us better models of our existence than say chicken entrails or astrology. It provides a model based on cause and effect, and past observation. It does not always provide an accurate prediction

 

George EP Box, All models are wrong, but some are useful. This is a useful mantra for scientists and mere mortals.

 

My point was, that in science the hargey bargey of scientific discourse (usually polite) moves closer to the truth. We will never get there and sometimes we even take a wrong turning. Science should be viewed over centuries not today's headlines or even decades.

 

So perhaps we can argue religion is moving in the "right" direction with some bumps like literalism. Have you read The Evolution of God by Robert Wright? An interesting read.

[PaulS]

Rom,

 

My misunderstanding on your post then - I thought you were saying that belief vs belief doesn't measure up because of the lack of evidence.

 

Yes, I have read Wright's book and concur - a very interesting read.

 

Paul

[murmsk]

 

 

I think we speak out when we can and when we will be heard and witness when we can't.

dido, The "when we will be heard" is a very important part of the statement.

 

Often, when in dialog especially with fundi's there is a refusal to listen. I personally get very frustrated with people who choose to be ignorant and thus don't spend my time talking.

 

steve

[soma]

Murmsk, I agree I also just be quiet and it is frustrating. I like the quote, "Don't cast your pearls before the swine" I like this not because they use the word pigs but because it reminds me that some people just don't and will not get what one is trying to say, by being quiet and mindful I am utilizing the moment as a spiritual practice and I am letting them say their piece or pieces. It seems they need to say it, In this case Buddhist practices have helped me be a better Christian especially being with annoying Christians. If I can focus on the moment I can be more Christ like.

[Larry]

Hi Paul,

 

it seems to me like a difficult question to answer. My daughter and family are very active in a fundamental Baptist church . When i do attend on special occasions where my grandkids are participating in a program i cringe at the words that are spoken and come out of their mouth. The indoctrination teachings they are exposed to seems like brain-washing to me.. However, it is beyond my control and i am presently convinced that any opposing view i might entertain with them unless solicited, might serve only to segregate our relationship.

 

It does seem perplexing at times but i find peace in my experience of seeing that in time, truth surfaces of its own accord when the subject is ready. If they ask my opinion, i certainly would not hesitate to respond but that has not been the case and they are already aware from my books of alternate views.

 

They are not activists or extremists in their actions even though one may classify their belief system as so. Basically, they are loving parents doing what they believe is right or best for their children. They are also a help for good to their community. They don't seem to be forceful in pushing their views on others and even though they may have a strong opinion on God and gays and would have little to do with them, they don't seem to wish them harm but rather pray for them. (My one brother is gay and they have kept their belief to themselves concerning him) I would not put too much weight on what they say they belief but more on their actions. As long as they are not harmful i would echo "live and let live"

 

Joseph

 

 

..................................

I agree. I also believe that we can have dialog with Fundamental Christians if and when they are willing to discuss and learn about the progressive side.

[The Rhino]

In my line of work people have the right to make unwise decisions. They are as autonomous as we are. If it causes harm then we should try to educate, but where is the line? If you tried to enforce against particular ideals is this not as bad? History shows us that it can be terrible. Freedom is part of being human. Take that freedom away forcefully and you're causing as much hurt as they are.

 

" an eye for an eye makes the whole world blind"

Ghandi