What's Our Responsibility To Mitigate The Harms Done By The Church

[PaulS]

Paul, you ask, "Can't we all just let it be?" Indeed we can.

 

It is commonly attributed to Edmund Burke, "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men should do nothing." And I think this is what Kathy was alluding to in the OP, that some forms of Christianity and the Church are harmful to us and our world. But you're correct, we don't have to tell these people what they do is wrong. We can just let it be.

 

I admire and partially share your one rule/philosophy in life. But it doesn't address what we do when others do cause harm, whether through action or inaction. Just letting it be just doesn't seem right to me. But as Joseph says, "to each his own."

 

And with that, I will just let it be.

Bill,

 

You misconstrued my point and overlooked that I directly said that this doesn't mean we sit idly by whilst others destroy.

 

My post was intended to point out that in my opinion, telling others that they have their religion and spirituality wrong does nothing to help them move from one place to another. I am certain that if progressive Christianity was to become more of a 'movement' that inevitably rules and exclusiveness will follow ("We have it right - you have it wrong"). It is human nature.

 

Perhaps my philosophy could be expanded to address the myriad of ways I deal with the myriad of situations where people cause a myriad of levels of harm to our community, but I can't be bothered. For me, everything stems from how WE conduct ourselves and whether it causes harm or not.

 

I am coming to a humbling understanding that I don't have all the right opinions, that others have alternate views, and that for whatever reasons, those views are right for them at this time and may in fact even be the right views for all I know. I sometimes arrogantly think that I have better answers for them, but then I remind myself that I am far from leading an exemplary life with everything exactly where it should be.

 

I'd defend my family too with a shotgun if somebody broke into my house with the intention to rape and kill them, but I don't encourage anyone else to feel that way. That's up to them. Does that make me right and them wrong - I don't think so.

 

Every day around 21,000 children like yours and mine die from malnutrition and curable disease. I could look at people like you (and me) and criticise them for the 'harm' or lack of action they take in rectifying this situation, but I don't know what purpose that would serve.

 

Paul

[Kathy23]

That's a good question Steve - what am I trying to achieve.... I started to type out some grandiose vision of progress but I'm not articulate enough to do that justice. On a very selfish level, what I would like to see is a more accessible christianity, one that is no longer hostile to thinking that goes too far out of the fence as that is certainly not consistent with my thoughts on how Jesus would be. I think I would benefit from being part of a spiritual community where I could be challenged to grow and not just merely tolerated at best for my scientific and mystical approach to applying the teachings of Jesus to my life. And I do think there are likely other people out there that would benefit from this as they struggle for wholeness. While I try to stay away from dichotomous concepts like right and wrong because I think life and most situations are a series of multivariate equations, I do think there are some things that other christians are doing that are wrong (bigotry being primary among them) and I do see the need to challenge those views from inside christianity as well as outside of it. While they may be doing the best they can and coming from a place of fear and all, gay I am humble on most matters, as I know I don't have all the answers, but not all. And while it is true that many people are not inclined to change their views, when approached in certain ways and presented with sound arguments, some people are. And change occurs one step at a time. So I think christianity is capable of growing and moving forward by having the unhealthy components of the religion challenged more vocally.

 

There is an arrogance involved in stepping in other people's lives but just because I'm flawed and don't have all the answers, is no excuse not to do it. We recently took in our troubled teenaged niece for a couple of years. And while I made my share of mistakes and it's not clear how much she learned while here, there is one less baby being raised by a completely messed up teenager right now as a result. I'd go through the dark times on this again if I had to for that. I struggle daily with the question "am I doing all I can (while still staying healthy) to make the world a better place" and I don't think it's a bad force in my life. So Paul, I welcome the discussion of what we could be doing to better serve all the starving and sick children on the planet. Not sure if that answers the question but thanks for letting me think out loud so to speak. And thanks for all the thoughtful comments on this question. I respect the place where all of you are and appreciate the insights.

[Kathy23]

Realized as I was signing off my "one less baby" comment might be misconstrued. When my niece came to us, she had been trying to get pregnant as a way out of her screwed up home. We took her out of the home instead and helped her avoid pregnancy to get through high school. Thanks again.

[JosephM]

Kathy, I also think Christianity is capable of growing and moving forward yet as a PC i find myself more in favor of individual growth regardless of religion so as not to create an "us" and "them". What people call themselves is not at all that important to me. Also i find it more effective to challenge others by example rather than vocally. People, in my view, seem to respond better to example rather than words.

 

Joseph

[BillM]

No rants or raves today, just summarizing how I see things.

It’s my belief that religion or spirituality works best when it helps us to connect with what/who we call God, with ourselves at our deepest level, with others, and with the world in which we live. Why would we want to do this? In the first place, I think it is to enjoy life, to simply appreciate being here and to make the most of what we have, to be in the moment and to experience this connectedness or unity with what is. This is, no doubt, a somewhat selfish motive to be religious or spiritual, but seeing as we are created or evolved as selves, I don’t think we can get around it. In the second place, I think we want to do this in order to help or improve ourselves, others and their situations, and our world. As Rich Mullins once said, “I don’t know if we can have heaven on earth, but we needn’t have a hell here either.”

So my sense of religion and spirituality entails both the inward and the outward contexts, trying to keep them somewhat in balance. For me, if I focus too much on the outward, I can become overwhelmed by the pain and suffering in our world, and frustrated that we, as human beings, can’t or won’t do more. If I focus too much on the inward, I do become selfish, caring only about my own wants and needs, my own “bliss”, enjoying my life, but ignoring or oblivious to the needs of others around me. As has been correctly pointed out, I am, by nature, a selfish creature. But I don’t want to be that way and my religion/spirituality helps me with that in challenging me to look beyond myself.

I’m certainly not saying that I have found a good way to balance these two contexts of my life yet. Some days I’m quite selfish and other days I can be quite generous. This balance is something I strive for. And, to be honest, I don’t know if or how I will achieve it, if I even can.

But perhaps this gives some insight as to why I question religions where the focus is almost entirely on the self, such as getting a guaranteed seat in heaven or achieving some sort of bliss that encourages detachment from the world and its problems. Or I question religions where the focus is almost entirely on the group to the detriment of self. We are selves and there is no denying that. But I think we function best in societies made up of other selves where we care for one another. I think we can and should balance the inner and outer. To me, a transformed heart should lead to hands and feet that help transform our world. In my opinion, we need both.

Thanks for listening.

[Kathy23]

Thanks Joseph and Bill. I've contemplated quite a bit on this today, thanks to all the probing questions here, and I think where I've landed is that I just need more engagement on these issues as I'm so totally in my own head on this stuff. It's helpful to have a forum like this. And I also think that rather than treat the subject as taboo with my religious friends (most of whom are more liberal so I'm not setting myself up for battle or anything), I need to break that divide and engage in conversation on these matters, including the question I posed to start this discussion. These are folks I respect and there's no attempt to persuade, it more to break down the barrier that exist between atheists and christians. Small steps..... Thanks again everyone.

[AnnieG]

Here's a link to an 'organised' PC group in California that goes beyond talk through various programs in areas such as sentencing, and changing attitudes to LGBTs:

 

http://pcu-la.org/PCU/Progressive_Christians_Uniting.html

Edited August 29, 2013 by AnnieG

[minsocal]

As I scan through the 8 Points in brief review, I find community, purpose, sacrifice and work to be a major theme. This my understanding, at least and it has been the view of PC I have lived with most of my life. It is a constant return to Micah:

 

"... do justice, love mercy, and walk humbly with your God".

 

Myron

[matteoam]

What do mean by the church?