Wilfull Sin, Lying, And Father Christmas.

[The Rhino]

I know that the prevailing views on this board are that the bible should not be taken literally. And often I am inclined to agree with this view point. However, I usually find that many of the passages that did not used to resonate with me do now. Unfortunately I do not have a bible with me but was wondering if anyone had insight into the concepts of wilfull sin as described in Hebrews and the meaning for their being no further sacrifice for our sins/repentance not being possible. I have heard that many put this down to just being for the Jews; letting them know that human sacrifices were no longer viable. Or that it refers to apostacy. However, I have also heard told that it simply means deliberately sinning, it cirtainly appears to be this way if you just pick the bible up and read... If this is indeed the case it makes for one of the more terrifying parts of the Bible, as almost all (if not all) have sinned to get ahead and planned sins in advance.

 

Further to this, many Christians see lying as a sin, i had always taken the commandment about bearing false witness to mean slander. Some make allowances for lying for a good cause such as saving life. But again many lies are planned and/or uttered simply for the sake of convenience or exaggeration. Lying to save your own skin or somone else's when the lie hurts no one is another example I have up untill now thought was ok, but if it is about someone is this again bearing false witness? Sort of like the opposite to slander? Furthermore there is another passage about god hating those with a lying tongue. Does anyone have any background to this giving the passage some context maybe?

 

Finally I want to tie these two concepts together, willful sinning and lying when taken literally would mean telling your kids that Father Christmas is real is a sin that would cause you eternal torment for which repentance was not possible. How guilty would those kids feel!

 

Sometimes I just don't understand that smaller sins to us (as humans) have the same value to God. It not only equates murder to telling white lies, but also seems unfair that we feel differing degrees of guilt based on their effects on those around us, yet in the eyes of God amount to the same. Bit of an unfair moral compass. Which is another reason I find fundamentalism a hard pill to swallow.... But as I said at the beginning of this post, there are often things to learn even from the statements which we do not understand.

 

Any thoughts on these subjects are welcome. I would be especially interested if anyone knows the universalist literalists view point on the passages about wilful sin and impossibility of repentance.

 

Thanks

 

R

[JosephM]

Rhino,

 

I believe the intent of "bearing false witness" was to say that making false statements against another under oath does harm to the other and ought not to be done. It undermines the NT saying "to love yor neighbor as yourself".

 

You ask about "sin". What is "sin" to you? To me it is a terrible thing to choose to live under. It is filled with guilt and condemnation and self inflicted torment.

 

In Christ one is supposed to be free from the law of sin and death. Personally i choose to live not under the law but rather free from the law of sin and death. (spiritually speaking). Perhaps this short chapter on "sin" that uses the Bible writing itself to expose "sin" for the deceiver it is, might help change your understanding as it did for me. Perhaps it will be a catalyst to help you break free from the 'concept' of "sin" that may be nagging you and you may be holding on to.

 

Joseph

[PaulS]

I simply view 'sin' as that which contributes negatively to life. Generally speaking, i think other people's 'sin' is their business unless it harms the community. As you point out, lying can be for good or bad. If its for good, then I have no problem with it. If it is done with malicious intent, then it isn't good.

 

As I don't believe in a judgemental God, any reference to wilful sin to me simply has the application of applying to this life in a negative sense.

[NORM]

I would agree with Paul concerning the matter of lying.

 

Additionally, I would posit the following: if it is true that G-d created us Imago Dei, then G-d imprinted within our hearts the wherewithal to lie and commit "sin." If it is also true that G-d is perfect and omniscient and omnipresent, omnipotent, etc..., then any kind of so-called "fall" would be a failure, and thus; impossible.

 

It is my thought that all of our human traits - flaws, foibles and greatness - are contained within the master plan.

 

If there even is one.

 

Fear not!

 

NORM

[soma]

Sin in view is without........................................................Heaven is with......................................................sin...................understanding, accepting and harmonizing in unity.