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Am I A Christian? ...or Even A Progressive Christian?


Eric333

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One can be called Christian who thinks Jesus was utterly flesh and a good teacher, same as Buddhist and some other labels. I think the meaning of "liberal" or "progressive" Christianity reasonably goes that far, unlike "Bible-believing" Christian or something else more specific.

 

"Christian atheist" would make sense to me, though I don't hear that from those who believe Jesus to be a good teacher. If there is no God and no Spirit, wouldn't a good teacher know that, ruling out Jesus?

 

The question for me is how much more than a good teacher is Jesus, a thoroughly mystical issue unfortunately. I call Jesus my Lord and my Savior, in part because I was raised that way, but in part because of how I experience that and what it might mean non-physically.

 

Much of the Bible is myth. Any serious scholar admits this. But what is the rest? Much is longing for the God-shaped void in our brain, the one evolution built from our desires for power, wisdom, goodness, love, and whatever else. Is there spirit(or spirits) that fills this well? Was that the source of Isaiah's experiences or were they just dreams? I don't know, but I reach to Jesus as well as God for whatever help I can get with that. That's the sort of liberal Christian I am. There are other ways that are reasonable for others.

 

David, thanks for the response, and sorry for the slow response in return. I like the way you think!

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Eric,

 

I'm not ready to write my own thesis on what I believe, mainly because I'm still searching and probably will never stop, but I will say that agree with pretty much everything you wrote. I also struggle with the question of "Am I Christian"? I get up on Sunday mornings and attend church at my local Presbyterian church along with my family. I think it's a good atmosphere for my children to be in. I love the fellowship of the community of my church and feel uplifted when I leave. So I continue to go. But I often feel like a bit of hypocrite as I'm sitting in church on Sunday morning because in my heart I really don't believe that Jesus is the one and only God, which is what our church doctrine says. I can't even say that I believe he was God. I think he was a very wise man and was inspired by God, like many of us are. So I follow his teachings. That said, I also agree with a lot wise and insightful things that many people have said through the years, both dead and alive, but I don't think they are God.

 

In this country people like to quote famous people and sayings. The way some people in the country talk they have practically elevated Thomas Jefferson and the other forefathers to level of deities and they act as if the constitution was written by the hand of God. (I'm sure people don't see themselves that way though, but if the forefathers said it, then that becomes undeniable fact and "truths" for them.) I often wonder is this similar in someway to what happened with Jesus? He was a really smart charismatic guy who said some very insightful things, people agreed with what he said and elevated him to the level of God in their minds. And those who wrote the scriptures for whatever reason, political or otherwise, decided to add mystical elements to convince others that he really was God. I also think that some of the insights in the gospels and other books of the NT were ideas of the authors who wrote them and attributed to them Jesus. They thought them up, but it sounded better if they attributed Jesus in order to make their insights sound more holy or "the word of God." Because you know, Paul says all kinds of things that Jesus never spoke of.

 

I still don't know what God is, other than I believe God is a love, and whatever God is in us and part of everything else on the planet...In the end Christianity is a religion created by man.

 

Amy, these are some excellent thoughts you've shared, I think they're spot on, and I can very much relate to going to church for various reasons but hoping that nobody ever asks me what I thought of the sermon! :-)

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This is an interesting thread because over the last year or so, I've struggled with the idea of a label. For the last 20 years, I've been content to pretty much go without one - although if asked I would usually say I was technically an atheist in that I'm a non-theist but my concept of god is complicated, or something to that effect. I would not claim to be christian because I didn't want the "beliefs" and "thoughts" that tend to come along with that to be ascribed to me. I've been content to live my life as best I can and have found sufficient insights for spiritual growth from a variety of books. But as a result, I have stayed out of any meaningful spiritual discussions with anyone other than my husband.

 

But for reasons I am unable (because I don't know) to explain, I feel the need to take on the label christian again. I think it is partially because I feel the need to be part of the larger discussion and not just sit on the sidelines on this conversation anymore. My thought is, gosh darn it, I AM a follower of Jesus in that whether he was real or not, the story of his life and his teachings were very meaningful to me as a child and as I was developing my inner core - it's an important part of my inner compass. And who is anyone else to say that's not a valid way to follow Jesus because, as several of you pointed out, Jesus did not start a religion and it's the religion of christianity that has set out these requirements of beliefs/ I'm actually trying on the label of christian atheist for size as I do think it accurately describes where I'm at and I'll be interested to see what kind of conversations it might generate in the future. It's not like I'm out there flaunting it so could be a while before it comes up..... But perhaps progressive christian would be more fitting? It is certainly broad enough to cover the full range of ideas that I either hold to or completely respect. I still feel the need to distinguish myself from the overall christian label - not sure if that's a healthy need or not but it's there so I need to keep riding that wave for now....

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Hi Kathy,

 

Not to sound like a broken record, but I think you would be well advised to visit your local synagogue. As I've mentioned on other threads, I found acceptance among the Jewish community. They are quite OK with my non-theism. I know a few in the community who profess atheism.

 

I discovered that what I really admired about Jesus was his passion for a humanistic and egalitarian understanding of Judaism. Of course, according to the "Christian" Bible, Jesus believed in a supernatural G-d, but it didn't seem to be the center of his focus. I think that given a choice, Jesus would reject our modern version of Christianity.

 

I think that you will only engender hostility with the epithet of "Christian Atheist." Jewish Atheist has already been vetted with success.

 

NORM

 

 

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I feel the need to take on the label christian again. I think it is partially because I feel the need to be part of the larger discussion and not just sit on the sidelines on this conversation anymore. My thought is, gosh darn it, I AM a follower of Jesus in that whether he was real or not, the story of his life and his teachings were very meaningful to me as a child and as I was developing my inner core - it's an important part of my inner compass. d to distinguish myself from the overall christian label - not sure if that's a healthy need or not but it's there so I need to keep riding that wave for now....
Kathy, Christianity needs you more than you need it. You know the culture and vocabulary to communicate with Christians who want an interior life and deeper meaning. Many Christians are manipulated by the church, some are guided and they can do a great service to their brothers and sisters.
I hope the feeling is strong. I accepted the label again and not only was I labeled narrow minded by non-Christians, but new age far out evil by the right wing Christians. Every wound is a blessing a sign post to a deeper life.
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This is an interesting thread because over the last year or so, I've struggled with the idea of a label. ....

 

Hi Kathy and Norm, you both make some excellent points. I have really enjoyed the quality of discussion on this forum! Personally, I think there are many of "us" out there who were raised and formed by Christian tradition, and we tuned out the bad stuff and focused on the good stuff, and it's simply baked into us and we still long for that community; but have "progressed" in our intellectual understandings which makes us unwelcome in most churches. I think what needs to happen to Christianity is what happened to Judiasm, where it got "watered down" (I can imagine an evangelical hating that I just said that). Eventually it IS going to end up being a mere tradition where people cherry pick the good stuff, use the buildings and ministries for good works, and fellowship for a good purpose ... and modern fundamentalism will be viewed akin to how we view Amish or something like that today. I think this generation is pushing things in that direction. For a title, I use "Evolved Christian" just for fun (and even have a blog called Christian Evolution to explore all of that), because I personally feel like I can best describe my path as having evolved over the years by keeping the good, shedding the bad, and continuing to look forward to strengthen and adapt. But for "real" titles that would be understood by other people, Progressive Christian is mostly full of Christian A-Theists (or those who are well on their way to being Christian (by tradition) A-theists (by understanding) so likely the best label out there right now.

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Lot's of good food for thought here. Thanks for the comments Soma and Eric. Soma, the feeling is strong and has stayed with me a while so we'll see where I land on this. Eric - I enjoyed your website (and friended it on facebook) and particularly love the Socrates quote about change coming from focusing energy, not on fighting the old, but building the new. It reminds me of spiritual guidance I received 20 years ago. I've shared on another post that I was frustrated in the liberal church I was attending in my 20s. I felt that the views I would express were tolerated but not respected. My right leg is hard core scientist and my left leg is amateur mystic and I need both to move forward but neither of those viewpoints are well received in churches. So I went in for psychological and spiritual counseling and lucked out by getting someone who was very progressive (he had been performing blessing ceremonies for gay couples since the early 80s or something). After a couple of months of counseling, he told me that I reminded him of a horse that was hanging out at the fence looking at all the wonderful ideas that lay outside of the fence. He advised me to stop complaining about the fence and all the other horses that are completely content within the fence. He said I needed to just jump the fence and go into the wilderness. I had a good sense of direction and should just follow where the spirit led me. So I did and found a great career that allows me to use science to make the world a better place (or at least try to) and have a wonderful family and all that. But seems I wound up back complaining about the fence again and it's really not how change occurs. I know my energy is much better when I'm part of being creative and building something new - whether it's new ideas at work or raising a wonderful child. I need to get to that place spiritually. Throwing stones at the old can be cathartic at times but it's not particularly productive. Anyway, I keep turning these things back to me and I need to stop that. It is nice to find a group of like minded folks to converse with but I'll try to decrease my egocentrism a bit going forward..... Thanks!

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Eric,

 

"Evolving Christian" is a perfect designation for your spiritual journey. I too consider myself as evolving - an ongoing process that allows me to move through life experiences in a way that allows me to celebrate change rather than fear losing something.

 

A little story regarding the comparison to Judaism:

 

During my conversion from Christianity to Judaism, I had a wonderful Hebrew instructor who survived the Shoah (what non-Jewish persons refer to as the Holocaust) as a young boy in the Warsaw Ghetto. He recalls how the Rabbis in the community would call out to G-d to rescue them from their suffering. Many were convinced that the Shoah would bring about the much anticipated Moshiach. But, he never came, and six million Jewish citizens were exterminated. "Where was G-d," they asked? Wasn't the whole point of obeying the Law and remaining true to the faith in order to enjoy the protection of an all powerful G-d?

 

The experience of the Shoah forced many in the Jewish community - and those who experienced it first hand - to come to the conclusion; NO!! This was a turning point in Jewish thinking, according to my instructor. He said that this experience caused a renewed interest in the great, humanistic teacher Rabbi Hillel (110 BCE - 10 CE), who famously said regarding this very issue:

 

 

“If I am not for myself, then who will be for me? And if I am only for myself, then what am I? And if not now, when?” - Rabbi Hillel

 

This evolution of the Jewish faith is responsible for the rise of socially aware Judaism. And it continues to evolve! A new trend for Bar and Bat Mitzvah is to do a series of mitzvah (good deeds) as preparation for the ceremony. In the past, the Bar / Bat Mitzvah was all about personal and spiritual growth.

 

My friend and neighbor's daughter held a garage sale where 100% of the proceeds went to a local charity that provides financial support to families of children struggling with cancer or some other life-threatening disease. She raised nearly $800 dollars as part of her Bat Mitzvah goal of raising $1500.00 for her charity.

 

I think this is the right kind of evolution for religion in America - and the world!

 

Yemot HaMashiach

 

NORM

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He recalls how the Rabbis in the community would call out to G-d to rescue them from their suffering. Many were convinced that the Shoah would bring about the much anticipated Moshia

 

Yemot HaMashiach

 

NORM

 

Great story Norm. I think you are right on target with your views regarding Judiasm's evolution from a "religion" to a "tradition and way of life." As an aside, I love that Seinfeld episode where the Dentist converts to Judiasm for the jokes! Check it out here if you haven't seen it:

 

When I was taking theology in college we often referred to Judiasm to bring more clarity to things, and it was very valuable. I love that you used the word Moshiac because it's interesting how many modern evangelicals dont even know what the word Yeshua means :-)

 

I look forward to hearing more about your insights on this topic.

 

Eric

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I agree, they didn't consider him as God till the councils and to this day there is much debate. I see Jesus a very inspired man, and taught peace and love, and he had has a huge following.. Unlike other Messiahs at the same time he was peaceful, but his message had more impact, enough that the scribes, Pharisee, and Rome wanted him dead. For me the virgin birth is a metaphor, the birth of a new religion, only humans that we know of pass on their God status in those days to their heirs, Caesars, etc.

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Great story Norm. I think you are right on target with your views regarding Judiasm's evolution from a "religion" to a "tradition and way of life." As an aside, I love that Seinfeld episode where the Dentist converts to Judiasm for the jokes! Check it out here if you haven't seen it:

 

When I was taking theology in college we often referred to Judiasm to bring more clarity to things, and it was very valuable. I love that you used the word Moshiac because it's interesting how many modern evangelicals dont even know what the word Yeshua means :-)

 

I look forward to hearing more about your insights on this topic.

 

Eric

 

 

Heh! My favorite line from that episode:

 

PRIEST: Are you offended as a Jew?

 

JERRY: No, I'm offended as a comedian!

 

NORM

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That was a good you tube, I never watched Seinfeld ( guess I don't know what I missed) but yes as with all religions they become a way of life. I am waiting to see the movie The Way with Martin Sheen in it.

 

Some Christians don't want to watch the Life of Pi as they think it raises Hinduism and other religions, which I can't believe some Christians believe they have a monopoly on God. Most Christians I know do not feel that way, but mainly many on the Christian message boards. I mean I was shocked to find so many Protestants don't consider RC's Christians, so there is it, all my life according to them I wasn't a Christian anyway. Boggles my mind.

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Luvtosew,

 

I grew up within a fundy, Protestant tradition in Perth, Western Australian called Churches of Christ (this is that particular church's website actually - http://www.bassochurch.org.au/ ) and I remember we didn't regard Catholics as true Christians either. They were 'mistaken' you see, because they worshipped the Virgin Mary and foolishly believed the Pope was without sin. Also they worshipped 'idols' where of course we remained pure by only having crosses embossed on our preaching lecterns at most. :)

 

Oh, also purgatory wasn't a biblical teaching apparently, so you were wrong there too. :)

 

I remember that Catholics weren't regarded as 'Christian' enough - they were too lax in their Christianity during the week with them doing anything they wanted to0 and simply getting 'off the hook' come confession!

 

Sorry to add to your burst bubble!

 

Cheers

Paul

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Paul,

That's ok, I'm over it. That's why when in the 50's we were discouraged from reading the bible but now with the internet and Protestants, if they can't beat them they need to join them and make sure RC's interpret the Bible right!! (their way). Hey at least you went to heaven for believing, but we had to go to purgatory for God only knows how many years!!

 

Being a policeman I'm sure you seen it all, and I agree, people seem so quick to condemn people without even knowing what their past may of been like, and we are products of life experiences. Some people can overcome and others can not. I am glad I found out about Progressive Christianity as well, after much intensive reading the last few years my beliefs have changed so much, although I consider myself yet a Christian, (even tho I never really was, ha ha) as I follow the teaching the man Jesus.

 

PS: I'm sure you never ate the flesh and drank the blood of Jesus either did you? That was one of the first things, everyone I know and my nephews who were altar boys, we all believed in the spiritual presence of Jesus in the host, then I learned what transubstantiation really meant, and that started it all.

 

I agree I 'm so glad I heard Bishop Spong on you tube, and the others, and know that I'm not alone.

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It’s interesting that many Protestants didn’t or still don’t think Catholics are Christians. I was born and raised Catholic and I never identified myself as “Christian”. I simply said I was “Catholic”. I must say in retrospect that there was a rather profound arrogance in this, because for years I was taught by Jesuits, and became convinced that Protestant doctrine was completely false. Actually, doctrinally speaking, I still think Protestants have it all wrong, and I don’t even debate these things anymore! As a result, it was for the Protestants to identify themselves as “Christians”, but the “true doctrine” was Catholicism.

 

The Virgin Mary is another very interesting matter. I see the worship of her as a very esoteric, even mystical practice within the Catholic Church. I have known many people who claim to have been “helped” by her over the years. I still recite the Hail Mary myself, mainly because I think Christianity, and the Church in general, is far too dominated by male figures. Mariology is actually quite interesting. It is the female aspect of spirituality which draws many people, particularly women, to Mary. A female Christian mystic once said that Mary is interested in us as individuals, whereas God is only interested in human nature in general.

 

Catholics are supposed to believe that when they receive the Eucharist, it is the “real presence” of Christ (not Jesus) that they are receiving. I think some Lutherans and Anglicans also adhere to this doctrine, as well as the Eastern Orthodox Church of course. But, I think many see it as merely symbolic. They also tend to confuse the person Jesus with “Christ”. To know the difference between the two is to be able to understand the true doctrine of what “Christ” is, and how it is that this presence comes to be within reality. When understood correctly, it begins to make some sense. But, this is not the place to go into it.

 

Peace.

Steve

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PS: I'm sure you never ate the flesh and drank the blood of Jesus either did you? That was one of the first things, everyone I know and my nephews who were altar boys, we all believed in the spiritual presence of Jesus in the host, then I learned what transubstantiation really meant, and that started it all.

Forgot that one. Of course our Church rightly recognised the crackers and grape juice as just that and didn't believe in it's literal transformation into real flesh and blood.

 

No, we only stuck to true bible-based teachings such as God's hate of gays (of course we loved them, we just thought they were totally sick and depraved!), that everybody else in the world was miserable and intentionally rejected Jesus because they wanted to live in sin, and that everyone was doomed for hell unless they accepted Jesus as their personal saviour (babies and infants were a grey area though - at least we had some conscience!). :)

 

For nearly 20 years I had all the answers and knew exactly what my purpose in life was. Those were the days!

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For nearly 20 years I had all the answers and knew exactly what my purpose in life was. Those were the days!

 

You guys are hitting on the head with the fundy vs. Catholic stuff, I was raised in New York as a Catholic, and then moved to FL and went to protestant church and have totally seen both sides in action. I love your last line here... says it all!

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Heh! My favorite line from that episode:

 

PRIEST: Are you offended as a Jew?

 

JERRY: No, I'm offended as a comedian!

 

NORM

 

Yes I LOL'd at that part too! And the part where Jerry mentions the joke about Raquel Welch and the Priest perks all up and wants to hear it :-)

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Steve,

Yes I always said I was Catholic as well. I only know about evangelicals from the message boards. Transubstantiation was the changing point for me, to the point I just couldn't go along with the sacrifice of the Mass and that truly the Eucharist turns into the physical body of Christ (Jesus). Spiritual or symbolic presence yes, find but not physical. I would still go to church with family but would not receive as saying Amen to something I do not believe is lying. They say only 29% believe in the physical presence so I find it odd everyone in church goes up and receives.

 

Well I think they want to pass the 5th Marian dogma but they won't as that would really anger the Protestants, but no matter they pretty much teach it. I find the virgin birth as a metaphor, women give birth and Christianity was a new religion or way of relating to God.

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Hi Luvtosew,

 

I’m certainly not an apologist for Catholicism, or Christianity in general. Still, I take care when throwing out the bath water so as not throw the baby out as well. I’m not sure, but my sense is that some “progressive” Christians are left with an empty bath tub, and so they struggle to find a ground.

Clearly, the “Virgin Birth” is a myth. There are many such religious myths throughout history. The Buddha is said to have not experienced a normal birth either. There is some story about him being generated from the side of his mother…very strange.

Most people, including Catholics, reject transubstantiation. I don’t think Catholic doctrine is at all clear on this issue. Still, the early Christian community’s central focus of worship was on the Eucharist, and that was years prior to any doctrine being developed. For that reason alone I treat the institution of the Eucharist with respect, and its okay for me not to understand how Christ could be present in bread and wine. Humans have very concrete concepts about matter and form.

Again, not proselytizing here, just suggesting some alternative views.

Peace.

Steve

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Steve,

I agree, although I believe the host is symbolic of the body of Jesus the Christ , its done in remembrance of his life and death. Holy Communion is central to the RC

Mass, I was surprised to learn it was not part of every Protestant Sunday worship service. I believe the Church is clear on one believing it is the body, blood, soul and divinity of Jesus, otherwise one is not allowed to partake, although its not enforced. I also think Holy Communion is a ritual that is important for church members to engage in, breaking of bread and wine.(crackers or juice). But I am not allowed to, as I do not believe in transubstantiation, so I wont. If others choose to engage that is their right. I agree with you, they should of never tried to describe it by using an Aristotle term and telling people they have to believe it. People have lost their life protecting the bread wafer, and also people have been killed for refusing to eat it (if one can believe the writings). It is used as a dogbone and has been for many years , and that makes it very bad. If one doesn't receive the Eucharist people think they are living or committed a moral sin, but its a mortal sin to receive the Eucharist if in a state of mortal sin, but everyone in church goes up save a few who are not too embarrassed to stay seated. This is just such a huge deal for me, we were not taught well in the 50's , as everyone I know including my altar boy nephews believed it was spiritual. The last several years I learned what is meant by transubstantiation its a big deal for me I guess.

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Luvtosew,

 

I hear you on Catholic education in the 50’s. It wasn’t much fun. I think I spent most of my childhood worrying about whether I had committed a mortal sin or not!

 

Now that I’m 65, I have long ago thrown off those concerns. After high school I pretty much convinced myself that being Catholic wasn’t for me. However, I did go to a Jesuit university to learn Western philosophy and theology, among other things. Still, I was an agnostic/atheist/secular humanist. I guess today that would be considered a progressive Christian!

 

I stayed that way for almost 20 years until I went to AA in the 80’s to get sober. There I was told the main purpose of the Twelve Steps was to enlarge our spiritual life. To fulfill this obligation and knowing of nowhere else to go, I went back to the Church of my youth, but without all of the previous Catholic guilt. This reminded me a lot of the Prodigal Son story in the bible, and it wasn't lost on me. That was only one of the steps that were invaluable to me in AA.

 

Eventually I became interested in the contemplative life and Christian mysticism. I think that, fundamentally, the Catholic liturgy is contemplative in nature, so it was pretty natural to go in this direction. Lately I’ve been studying and practicing Buddhism as well, and I have found that this has enriched my overall spiritual life, and of course it is also contemplative. I don’t worry much about doctrine. If there seems to be some truth to it, I’ll take it with me, but I leave all the rest behind.

 

Sorry to bore you with my personal story; just thought I’d share a little of it with you.

 

Best of luck with that whole Eucharist thing.

 

Peace.

Steve

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Steve I am studying the Christian Mystics now. They use very flowery language to describe the unitive field and experience Christians call God. The modern Christian Mystics are giving techniques and guide lines to the experience. I think Buddhist techniqes have been proven over and over again for centuries and millineums to lead to a genuine experience of no mind, no thing, unity, God. I feel your experiences with chemicals was a valid spiritual journey to a deeper and deeper reality into the present moment. You are lucky and I am lucky that hard knocks led us into the perfect environment to be totally present in the moment. Enjoy, I enjoyed your post.

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Steve,

Interesting about the Rc education, yes I was scrupulous as they call it. Really up till my early 50's I never questioned anything, I just rather thought all Christians were the same, and were mainly RC. Having spare time and the internet changed that !! Life has a way of making us grow and that is why its hard to judge anyone , as we have never walked in their shoes. Many of the Catholic Saints were mystics, and I just read where RC and Buddha monks got together for

meditation and prayer meeting. RC is much more mystic that I think non RC are. Non RC are by the book, Bible only. Yes I do like the RC Mass in that we say prayers together and have our quiet time, its peaceful. I can't imagine listening to a 60 min sermon every Sunday, that would be so strange.

 

Yes Jesus said don't worry about tomorrow, and when you put the plow to the field don't look back , something like that, to me it means living in the present. It is all we have is the now, and we should live in peace and kindness, whether we pass on to another life or not, but I think we do.

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