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America-Will-Move-Forward-From-Lgbt-Prejudice


murmsk
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Myron,

 

Do you really think we are moving backwards? I think attitude surveys are very clear. Nowhere in the U.S, not many years ago, could gays marry. Don't-ask-don't-tell was progressive in 1993. Etc., etc.

 

George

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Myron,

 

Do you really think we are moving backwards? I think attitude surveys are very clear. Nowhere in the U.S, not many years ago, could gays marry. Don't-ask-don't-tell was progressive in 1993. Etc., etc.

 

George

 

Name me a single survey of gays.

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Myron, I can't. But isn't it the attitude of society in general, that is the issue?

 

George

 

George,

 

Yes, and that attitude includes a strong inclination to ignore any input from the LGBT community as 'defective'.

 

Myron

Edited by minsocal
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Name me a single survey of gays.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/21/us/21evangelical.html?pagewanted=all

In a separate survey in 2004, John C. Green, a senior fellow at the Pew Forum on Religion and Public Life, however, placed evangelicals into three camps — traditionalist, centrist and modernist — based on the how rigidly they adhered to their beliefs and their willingness to adapt them to a changing world. The traditionalists are evangelicals who are usually labeled as the Christian right, while the centrists might be represented by the newer breed of evangelical leaders, who remain socially and theologically quite conservative but have mostly sought to avoid politics. The two camps are roughly the same size, each representing 40 to 50 percent of the total.

Experts agree, though, that the centrist camp is growing. Estimates of the number of evangelicals nationwide vary, depending on how they are counted and how the term is defined, but Mr. Green put it at 26.3 percent of Americans.

The full electoral implications of the shift that is occurring in the movement will likely unfold over the next decade or more, several religious experts and activists said, as opposed to in this next presidential election cycle.

“I think we’re talking about a 20-year effect,” said Andy Crouch, an editor at Christianity Today.

The tremors of change are, nevertheless, detectable, especially among younger evangelicals. Many are intrigued by Senator Barack Obama, Democrat of Illinois, who has demonstrated the ability to speak convincingly about his faith on the campaign trail, as a presidential candidate.

“The person I just hear about all the time is Obama because he is seen as spiritually serious, even if people know he’s really kind of a liberal Christian,” Mr. Crouch said.

Gabe Lyons, 32, is emblematic of the transformation among many younger evangelicals. He grew up in Lynchburg, Va., attending Mr. Falwell’s church. But he has shied away from politics. Instead, he heads the Fermi Project, a loose “collective” dedicated to teaching evangelicals to shape culture through other means, including media and the arts.

“I believe politics just isn’t as important to younger evangelicals as it has been for the older generations because we recognize from experience that politics does not shape the morality of a culture,” he said. “It simply reflects what the larger culture wants.”

There are other signs of attitude changes among younger evangelicals. Recent surveys conducted by the Barna Group show that younger “born again” Christians are more accepting of homosexuality than older ones and are less resistant to affording gays equal rights. But on abortion, they remain almost as conservative as their parents — more fodder for both political parties to weigh as they consider the future.

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Now may be the highest record of murders of gays but that doesn't mean it will always be that way and likewise just because we say America will move forward from LGBT prejudice doesn't mean it will be quick or easy. But just look at the past four years to see how much progress American culture has progressed on the issue of gay rights. Obama passed the Matthew Shepard Act which classified the killing of gays as a hate crime, he repealed DADT which allows gays and lesbians to serve openly in the military, he's now the first American president to openly support gay marriage and has vowed to repeal DOMA, and all the surveys show the younger generations of all political and religious backgrounds becoming more supportive of gay rights, and a majority of Americans now support gay marriage. Even many prominent Republican figures have come out in support of gay rights. So we still have a long way to go before we say the fight is finally over but that doesn't mean there isn't any progress being made or that we're going backwards.

Edited by Neon Genesis
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"Highest Number Of Anti-Gay Murders Ever Reported In 2011: The National Coalition of Anti-Violence Programs"

 

http://www.huffingto..._n_1564885.html

 

Myron,

 

With all respect, even one of the authors in the article you quote seems to argue that things are moving forward:

 

"We feel that it's not an actual increase in violence but that there are reasons this kind of violence is being recognized for what it is," Jindasurat said. "One big reason is that now its more acceptable to talk about LGBT communities in general."

 

I would agree that change isn't happening fast enough, but I really don't think society is heading backwards when it comes to LGBT issues.

 

Cheers

Paul

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Myron,

 

With all respect, even one of the authors in the article you quote seems to argue that things are moving forward:

 

"We feel that it's not an actual increase in violence but that there are reasons this kind of violence is being recognized for what it is," Jindasurat said. "One big reason is that now its more acceptable to talk about LGBT communities in general."

 

I would agree that change isn't happening fast enough, but I really don't think society is heading backwards when it comes to LGBT issues.

 

Cheers

Paul

 

Yes, I'm sure you know how I feel.

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Myron,

 

With all respect, even one of the authors in the article you quote seems to argue that things are moving forward:

 

"We feel that it's not an actual increase in violence but that there are reasons this kind of violence is being recognized for what it is," Jindasurat said. "One big reason is that now its more acceptable to talk about LGBT communities in general."

 

I would agree that change isn't happening fast enough, but I really don't think society is heading backwards when it comes to LGBT issues.

 

Cheers

Paul

 

Murders are up.

 

Teen suicides are up.

 

What do you need?

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Myron,

 

With all respect, even one of the authors in the article you quote seems to argue that things are moving forward:

 

"We feel that it's not an actual increase in violence but that there are reasons this kind of violence is being recognized for what it is," Jindasurat said. "One big reason is that now its more acceptable to talk about LGBT communities in general."

 

I would agree that change isn't happening fast enough, but I really don't think society is heading backwards when it comes to LGBT issues.

 

Cheers

Paul

 

Yes, that is the view I often encounter. And the reason I have now left the fold of this 'progressive' ... whatever it is... I'll go somewhere else where people listen.

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I think we need to take a slightly longer term view and maybe a broader perspective

 

and

 

I accept particular minorities may at times experience a reversal in acceptance.

But the overall trend is for the better.

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Murders are up.

 

Teen suicides are up.

 

What do you need?

 

Yes muders are up, Myron. Instead of 27 last year, there were 30 this year according to the article you offered. Whilst that is a rise of 10 percent, I think a total of 3 murders doesn't present a huge case for things getting worse (and I mean no disrespect to anybody who was murdered, believe me). That statistic can be affected by a number of reasons. Teen suicides are up for straight kids too. Perhaps that's pointing to a societal issue deeper than sexual orientation?

 

I obviously don't know how and what you feel Myron, but my comments are to the point being discussed and your comment that things are going backwards. I can't argue with you if you feel they are, you are entitled to your opinion of course. I just don't think the things we are seeing in society represent things going backward for people of LGBT orientation. Gay clubs used to be raided with the police arresting all patrons. Discussion of LGBT issues was taboo. Rarely would the words Christianity and homosexuality ever be used in the same sentence other than to condemn. Gay marriage wasn't even a consideration a couple of decades ago. Now compared to then is vastly different, although still massively unsatisfactory.

 

Like I said, a lot more should happen and quickly too. That's why I think the issue should be discussed and put out there and fought for. If I had the power to implement full and equal rights and treatment to LGBT people overnight I would.

 

Sorry if you feel you're not being listened to. I'm happy to discuss my points, but it seems a bit rough to be shut down because you say I don't know how you feel. Sorry you feel that way.

 

Cheers

Paul

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The fact that LGBT issues are part of common, everyday discourse seems to point toward progress. Things are not perfect, and there is still a lot of hate out there - the civil rights movement of MLK didn't wipe out racism, either; but things moved forward, improved, and became more equal than they were. Humans are still evolving, and hopefully will never stop. I don't know if we'll live to see the day that hatred (in all forms, not just toward the LGBT community) is eradicated, but if people give up now, our future generations won't, either.

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Stephen Pinker (in The Better Angels of our Nature), doesn't address gay bashing, as such, in detail, but the trend toward less violence in human history is absolutely unambiguous.

 

One of the side benefits of globalization (with all its more deleterious aspects) is more peaceful and less violent relations with the Other. It is harder to hate the guy who sells you your fish or iPads.

 

I suspect one of the benefits of gays coming out of the closet is that straights come to know them as both gay and regular people. As humans, we tend to generalize about other groups (ethnic, racial, national, etc.). But, when we get to know the other more closely, we realize there are more similarities than differences and that the generalizations were largely inaccurate.

 

George

Edited by GeorgeW
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I suspect one of the benefits of gays coming out of the closet is that straights come to know them as both gay and regular people. As humans, we tend to generalize about other groups (ethnic, racial, national, etc.). But, when we get to know the other more closely, we realize there are more similarities than differences and that the generalizations were largely inaccurate.

 

George

 

George,

 

You make an excellent point. It's often much harder to hate someone once you've gotten to know them personally. When we note people as "different" in our minds/societies, it enables us to create an Other, a sort of cultural boogeymonster. It's easy to be afraid, uncomfortable, filled with hate, when the object of those feelings is something or someone you aren't familiar with. When someone you know and like as a human being becomes someone you know as a member of the LBGT community, it makes it harder (I hope) to hang on to those old stereotypes and ideas.

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One thing I would like to add though in an opposite sort of way - I do notice that the more the "general society" moves in one direction, the "fringe society" seems to move in the other. As the general world (particularly in North America) becomes more open to LGBT community members, gay marriage, gay families, etc, those vehemently opposed seem to become more vicious and determined to be the complete opposite. I feel like the ultra-conservative, right wing, so-called "Christian Right" are getting more out of hand all the time, as the rest of the world starts to move on. Anyone see the clip over the weekend of the little toddler singing a homophobic song in church? I just about threw up. This is the one aspect of society that I have to say seems to be moving backward instead of forward - and making *all* self-identified Christians look bad in the process.

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WOW When I posted the article my thoughts were that it was a well written article with well thought out arguments that while not new were in an easily understandable logical format. In no way did I mean to offend anyone.

 

From a historical sense if we look at civil right struggle 1964 was much more violent than 1958 in spite of and in all likelyhood due to the progress being made.

 

Another thought... If someone asked Medger Evers wife if she saw progress in 1964 I suspect she would feel much the same as Myron. This battle is not being fought in my front yard. The viewpoint for those in whose front yard it is being fought is much different. The concern from history is that there was great progress for the first few after the civil war to a point where freed slaves were even elected to congress followed by significant retraction as evidenced by segregation, jim crow and poll laws. Perhaps these are the basis for Myrons comments. If so they are very valid.

 

 

yet another thought... A few months ago I was having lunch with a group of colleagues, most my age 55+ but two were just out of school .we were discussing same sex unions. After much discussion between the old guys one of the kids said that this was " your generations problem.... my generation doesn't care"

 

steve

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