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If Jesus knew that Judas Iscariot was going to betray him,


Deb N

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Phil,

 

I'm no expert at all, but to me any relation to Jesus' death seems more of a result of later biblical authors searching for meaning and picking certain elements out of the OT to explain the death of Jesus, as best they could understand it.

 

For me personally, it is clear to me that the author is talking about himself in a metaphorical sense, in the lyrics of this song.

 

That's just my view.

 

Cheers

Paul

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Phil,

 

If this interests you, there are a number of websites that argue against Psalm 22 being a literal prediction of Jesus' death. This is taken from just one of them, that suggests Psalm 22 actually refers to King David in the real time. http://godlesshaven.com/articles/psalm22.html

 

 

Apologists and believers have made Psalm 22 out to be a miraculously convincing prophecy, when there's really little of substance in it. Jesus' cry of "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" may be easily chalked up to the gospel authors having read Psalm 22. The mention of being scorned and despised by men can apply to David just as well as to Jesus. The dividing of garments and casting of lots can also be a metaphor for David's feeling of loss and loneliness, while incorporated literally by the gospel authors into their narratives. The piercing of the hands and feet referenced in verse 16 is one further example of the overblown attention to this passage, as AllAboutTheTruth.org once again illustrates:

"...skeptics emphasize the fact that this psalm does not actually mention the act of crucifixion. This isn't surprising since execution of this type was not known in David's time, yet the Scripture tells of a time when this will take place."

 

Is this really evidence? Claiming that it doesn't come out and say crucifixion, but still means it anyway? Depending on what translation or bible you read, Psalm 22:16 may be translated as "they have pierced my hands and feet", "like a lion they are at my hands and feet", "my hands and feet are shriveled", etc. A very thorough examination of the verse is available at Rejection of Pascal's Wager, suffice it to say that the reference to pierced hands and feet is quite disputable. And with that goes the only vestige of resemblance to crucifixion, which was not a very good one to begin with. If prophecy is inspired by God, couldn't God just have said crucifixion when he meant it?

 

Nonetheless, the argument over what Hebrew word is used in Psalm 22:16 is making much ado about nothing. As we've seen, there is no reason to think Psalm 22 is prophecy at all, let alone that it speaks of Jesus. The passage has a very obvious original meaning, and apologists consistently fail to provide substantial evidence for their suggested secondary meaning. Admittedly, Psalm 22 does have striking similarities to the gospels, at face value, but it also has inconsistencies that are glossed over or dismissed as heavy metaphor whenever convenient to the apologist. It's always important to dig a little deeper than the surface, to make sure appearances are not deceiving. In the case of Psalm 22, it seems we have a mixed bag of misunderstanding and foul play.

 

Cheers

Paul

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Depending on what translation or bible you read, Psalm 22:16 may be translated as "they have pierced my hands and feet", "like a lion they are at my hands and feet",

 

The ‘lion’ reading is a scribal error in the Masoretic texts. This was found when the Dead Sea Scrolls were discovered. The scribe wrote a yod as the final character in the word giving a meaning of ‘like a lion.’ The character in the DSS is a vav/waw which be the verb ‘they pierced.’ The DSS form is almost certainly correct as this is a much older text and the meaning makes sense in the Hebrew text.

 

George

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George,

 

I was aware of the challenge to the Masoretic text but had read that the Dead Sea Scrolls could hardly be conclusive, considering the quality of the fragment. Having looked at a picture of it myself, I wondered how anyone could attribute accuracy whatsoever.

 

But your post made me look into it again and I agree, it seems the Dead Sea Scrolls interpretation is now widely accepted as the most accurate for translating the verse as 'piercing/dug' rather than 'like a lion' (actually I've added the 'dug' to your post myself, as that does seem to also be the general consensus as opposed to only the word 'pierced').

 

Thanks

Paul

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Hi Dutch,

 

I'm curious: according to this view, how do you interpret Psalm 22 and Isaiah 53? The process view of an open future makes a lot of sense, but how does it explain predictions and prophecies?

 

Phil

As with most theological issues, the bible seems to have conflicting views on the omniscient nature of God. As the bible's mythology continued to be developed, God's powers kept getting beefed up by the writers and there are passages like the prophecy verses which seem to hint that God has all-knowing powers. But then there are other verses like in the story of Adam and Eve's fall where God doesn't know where Adam and Eve are and is calling for them in the garden or in Noah's Ark where God actually forgets about Noah at one point. Edited by Neon Genesis
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NRSV decided "My hands and feet have shriveled." (with a foot note that the meaning was uncertain) was the best translation. I doubt that humans waited thousands of years until the Roman occupation to learn that a good way inflict pain on the enemy was to pierce hands and feet.

 

When we in the present read an ancient text that resonates with us and our stories it is not the past that looks to us but we that look to the past. We create the past's predictions by seeing ourselves in its reflection.

 

Dutch

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Wayseeker,

 

" It's my opinion that Judas wanted the right thing, God's kingdom on earth, but he misunderstood that kingdom and how that kingdom was to come."

 

I hadn't thought of this. I'm still not sure of how that kingdom will come about. My best guesses are nuclear war or errant comet. It's my belief that the second coming occurs when we die and so is different for everyone.

__________

"How much Jesus may or may not have known about his disciples beforehand, we can never know for sure. But he was often accused by the Religious Right of his day of hanging out with the wrong crowds, of fellowshipping with people whom anyone else would have written off long ago. But the man had grace."

 

Another good point. Once the Pharisees decided that Jesus was a threat to their way of life, I believe, the decision was made regardless of whether Judas identified him or not. Jesus was known to many by the time He was turned over. Since He'd spoken at the temple a number of times, it's not likely (to me) that He was unrecognizable. By then He certainly knew His fate. Had Judas not identified Him Jesus likely would have identified Himself in deference to God's will.

Edited by Deb N
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Murmsk,

 

"Then the question becomes "Is there any reason we should consider this as historical?" I think the answer is no then the question is why did 1st century followers of Jesus feel it was important enough to want to remember."

 

I can't give you an answer for "why" but the notes in the NIV study Bible stated that Judas Iscariat may have been a rhetorical character added to illustrate the betrayal of all men.

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I'm in CA single with progressive beliefs, but little scholarship apart from currently reading the NIV study Bible. I've been looking online and can't find an answer that satisfies my question: If Jesus knew that Judas Iscariot was going to betray him, then why did He pick the man for a desciple?

 

To prove to us that He can love those kinds of people.

To prove to us that not everyone who claims to be a Christian will continue to follow Christ for the rest of their lives.

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As with most theological issues, the bible seems to have conflicting views on the omniscient nature of God. As the bible's mythology continued to be developed, God's powers kept getting beefed up by the writers and there are passages like the prophecy verses which seem to hint that God has all-knowing powers. But then there are other verses like in the story of Adam and Eve's fall where God doesn't know where Adam and Eve are and is calling for them in the garden or in Noah's Ark where God actually forgets about Noah at one point.

 

God knew where Adam and Eve were. He was testing them to see if they would give honest answers.

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