Jews, Palestinians, DNA, Zionists, Homelands

[glintofpewter]

The gist of that is that the predecessors of the Hebrew people were part of a significant wave of migrations from Eastern Europe and Eurasia southward

 

Jenell, is this what you are referring to?

 

A people called the Akkadians invaded the valley under Sargon I and established their supremacy over the Sumerians, and extended their control into Syria as far as the coast. The Ebla archive mentions the cities of Hazor and Jerusalem amongst other sites of the region. They were followed by the extension of Khirbet Kerak ware cultures, showing affinities with the Caucasas, and possibly linked to the later appearance of the Hurrians.This was synchronous with the empires of Ur during the 22nd and 21st centuries BC. Wikipedia

 

Hebrew (adj.) Look up Hebrew at Dictionary.com

late O.E., from O.Fr. Ebreu, from L. Hebraeus, from Gk. Hebraios, from Aramaic 'ebhrai, corresponding to Heb. 'ibhri "an Israelite," lit. "one from the other side," in reference to the River Euphrates, or perhaps simply signifying "immigrant;" from 'ebher "region on the other or opposite side." The noun is c.1200,

[GeorgeW]

It is pretty clear that the Exodus did not happen exactly as depicted in the Bible. Documentary evidence is sketchy at best and archaeological evidence is non-existent. But, I also think there is a seed of historical truth.

 

There was much going back and forth between Egypt and Palestine from early times. I read somewhere, some time ago that the plagues visited on the pharaoh could well be based on real natural phenomena in the Nile but not in Mesopotamia or the Jordan.

 

In addition, there are a number of Egyptian loan words in the OT. An interesting one (at least to me) is the Hebrew word for the prohibited wool-linen blend sa'atnez. First, this is very un-Semitic like (five root consonants instead of 2 or 3). Also, it is very similar to the word for an Egyptian garment. So, I can imagine that this otherwise nonsensical prohibition started out as 'thou shall not dress like an Egyptian.'

 

George

[JenellYB]

I do wish I could find that documentary I watch on PBS, the one particularly focused on the origin and movements of ancient Hebrews..I can't even remember the exact title of it. I do realize anything like that is just a theory, but I'm remembering they presented some pretty good evidence to support it, but not for the supposed period of slavery in Egypt. I've seen other documentaries that present evidence that pretty effectively refutes the common idea that Hebrew slaves were involved in the building of pyramids and other major historic structures, as well.

 

Dutch, none of the incidents you mention sound anything like what I remember being presented in that documentary.

 

Jenell

[glintofpewter]

'thou shall not dress like an Egyptian.'

That is how some of our rules start!

[JenellYB]

Dutch, some of these words you are mentioning here, "ibhri" etc, could be the word they mentioned in that documentary..since I HEARD them saying it, not seeing it written out, I am having to go on what it sounded like to me.

 

From what I'm remembering of it, the artifact on which they had found the reference to a Pharoh's command for all non-Egyptians to leave Egypt, in connection to a period of economic hardship and famine in Egypt, was a relatively recent find, and it was only a small mention within the larger body of new material they were examining. The context did seem to suggest "immigrants" and the idea that Egypt's scarce resources at the time were being further burdened by their presence. Which would make sense, as a practical response to a period of hardship, that scarce resources could be better utilized to meet the needs of the actual Egyptian citizens if foriegn immigrants weren't drawing from those resources as well. And that the time period from which that artifact originated would have been within a reasonable close range of the time period of the supposed Hebrew exodus out of Egypt.

 

Perhaps as the Israelites devloped their own unique ethnic and national identity, if sounded a lot better to remember it as God having delivered them out of bondage and oppression in Egypt than as having been kicked out becasue they ate too much of Egypt's food. That it apparantly also was in connection to a period of hardship in Egypt which led to the Pharoh's decree for them to leave, could also have been worked into the Exodus myth as the plagues and other hardships God brought down upon Egypt in convincing Pharoh to let them go.

 

I remember that all the evidence they presented in this theory of this possible reference to the Hebrew exodus out of Egypt seemed very convincing.

 

I've browsed the PBS web site again, but haven't found that documentary. I know it was PBS on which I saw it, because I have only antenna tv, don't get things like the history channel.

 

Jenell

[GeorgeW]

Jenell,

Are you talking about the expulsion of the Hyksos?

 

I checked back to see what Finklestein and Silberman, prominent biblical archeologists, have to say about the Hyksos in The Bible Unearthed (2002). They say that the most important mention of the Hyksos is by an Egyptian historian named Manetho in the third century BCE:

 

"Manetho described a massive, brutal invasion of Egypt by foreigners from the east . . . Subsequent studies showed that inscriptions and seal bearing the names of Hyksos rulers were West Semitic - in other words Canaanite. Recent archaeological excavations in the eastern Nile delta have confirmed that conclusion and indicate that the Hyksos 'invasion' was a gradual process of immigration from Canaan to Egypt." (P. 55)

 

They conclude, "The Israelites emerged only gradually as a distinct group in Canaan, beginning at the end of the thirteenth century BCE. There is no recognizable archaeological evidence of Israelite presence in Egypt immediately before this time." (P. 57) (underlining mine).

 

They also have a section in this chapter titled “A Conflict of Dates and Kings.” In this section, they show that the dates and personalities of the Hyksos accounts do not correspond with the Exodus story.

 

I would point out that although the biblical account does correspond to being expelled from Egypt (like the Hyksos), it has nothing about the Israelites invading and ruling Egypt as Manetho claims the Hyksos did.

 

Finklestein and Silberman also comment on the Apiru about whom they say, “Nonetheless, a connection [to Israelites in Egypt] cannot be completely dismissed. It is possible that the phenomenon of the Apiru may have been remembered in later centuries and this incorporated into the biblical narratives?

 

George

[GeorgeW]

The Hyksos are also mentioned in The Old Testament: An Introduction to the Hebrew Bible (2003) by Harris and Platzner. They say,

 

"One popular theory hold that the Semitic nomads were welcome in Egypt at the time Israelite tribes entered because Egypt was then ruled by foreigners know as the Hyksos." (p. 46)

 

It is worthwhile to note that this theory does not suggest that the Hyksos were Israelites, but that Israelites could have been welcomed into Egypt by foreigners.

 

They also say, "In 1560 BCE, an Egyptian revolt expelled the Hyksos rulers and establish the Eighteenth Dynasty" (p. 46). This date is also a problem for the Exodus story. And, the Exodus story does not have Moses ruling Egypt.

 

George

[JenellYB]

The Hyksos account in very interesting, as is the discepancy between the ancient historian's account of a brutal invasion and period of rule over Egypt vs that of a more gradual migration over a period of time and no period of rule involved. However, the biblical account does indicate that Joseph, after arriving in Egypt in the hands of the slave traders to which his brothers had sold him, did find favor with Pharoh, and was elevated to a position of some authority, and for that, so were his brethren when they came seeking grain to relieve their famine in their homeland, granted comfortable status. And, not to forget, Moses, raised as a son of Pharoh, to hold a high, even if not ruling, position. So there are some elements in the biblical narrative that could possibly have been worked into something of having some prominency on the rule in Egypt. We know well how history gets written in "creative" ways according to the tradition and heritage of those that record it.

 

As for archaological evidence suggesting a distinct Israelite identity within Canaan did not begin to emerge until around the 12th-13th centuries, that too would be consistent with some version of this theory, because while pre-Egyptian "captivity" (or occupation or whatever) biblical characters, Abraham and his descendants in Canaan prior to the move to Egypt might have been "Hebrew" there was not yet any suggestion of "Israelite" to their identity. That would not come until later, most likely much closer to the time period in which the people as had developed within Egypt made the trek back to Canaan so as to establish "Israel" as a ruling power and nation in that land. Just as there was nothing about our own European ancesters would not have been called "Americans" until after they had migrated to, taken up residence within, and established a distince nation here in America.

 

Jenell