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Jews, Palestinians, DNA, Zionists, Homelands


GeorgeW
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The main reason the Romans hated the Jews is the same reason they've been hated alsewhere in the world...their arrogant attitude of being "God's chosen/favored people", that they beleive priviledges them above others, by God Himself, and a refusal to submit meekly to the ruling powers of any other nation, out of their attitude they are under no power but God's.

 

Jenell,

 

That is a pretty sweeping claim. I don't think that the Holocaust, as an example, had anything to do with Jewish religious arrogance.

 

George

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Jenell,

 

That is a pretty sweeping claim. I don't think that the Holocaust, as an example, had anything to do with Jewish religious arrogance.

 

George

 

It isn't a sweeping claim, its a recognition of a real source of tensions and problems between Jewish settlements in many countries, under many different state. It has been a problem that arises out of their basic belief in their Torah and subsequent legal codes as fundamentally granted them by God, and determination that is above any "man-made" system of laws in other countries they've settled in.

 

Neither was the Nazi Holocaust waged only against Jews. I do not make light of what the Jews sufferred in that, but it does trouble me that the other groups and categories of people in Germany were also targeted for mass "elimination" and that those others have been and are largely just ignored and forgotten. Many of those others groups, some for being designated inferior such as disabled, mentally retarded, and homosexuals, but also of other ethnic/racial groups, had been decimated before the Nazis even got around to the Jews. Estimates of up to 1,500,000 Romanies alone were murdered in the Nazi "cleansing." Up to 6 million Jews were murdered in the holocaust, but the total number, oncluding other groups and categories, is estimated between 11-17 million, total. So at least close to as many other people were murdered as were Jews.

 

Nor is what I'm refering to as "religious arrogance" for anything to do with their religious practices, it is a social/cultural attitude that may have been rooted in that, but that much made that merely the excuse. There have been significant tensions in pretty much all other countries and regions in which Jews have formed communties, directly related to their beleifs and attitudes that their rights and laws under their Jewish code supercedes they authority of whatever state they may live in, where there is conflict between the laws of that state and their own codes, much as there has been similarly issues in recent times with Muslims and some other religious/ethnic groups wanting exception to the laws of non-muslim states they've formed communities within, or in some instances, demanded such exception in individual court cases/ criminal trials.

 

This attitude extends also very much to their beleif that they have God granted favored rights over other people, which is much evidence in some of the difficulties coming to any peacful resolution in the Palistinean matter today. The Jews have repeatedly and flagrantly violated treaties and agreements with both Palistineans and ohter nations trying serve as mediatiors. Jews have forcable encroached into and begun settlements on lands it had been agreed they would not. And they do so with the claim that God gave them that land forever. Nevermind the people that have lived on that land for centuries since then.

 

Jenell

Edited by JenellYB
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This attitude extends also very much to their beleif that they have God granted favored rights over other people, which is much evidence in some of the difficulties coming to any peacful resolution in the Palistinean matter today. The Jews have repeatedly and flagrantly violated treaties and agreements with both Palistineans and ohter nations trying serve as mediatiors. Jews have forcable encroached into and begun settlements on lands it had been agreed they would not. And they do so with the claim that God gave them that land forever. Nevermind the people that have lived on that land for centuries since then.

 

Jenell

 

It is important to point out that there is a small minority of Jewish people (normally referred to as Zionists and the even tinier Hassidim) who link possession of Y'srael with a G-d given providence. The majority of Jews who believe that they are entitled to the settlements do so for more secular reasons: a.) they fought a war for the territory and won, and b.) they converted barren wilderness into a fertile, livable homeland.

 

Now, as far as the population in general in Israel, I believe it is split nearly 50/50 as to who should possess the disputed zones. There was a time (prior to the Intifada), where it was more like 60% of the citizens of Israel who believed that the Palestinians should be allowed to establish an independent state outside the older boundaries.

 

I am Jewish, and I know that there are many within my community who would view your comments as anti-semitic, but I don't share those views. I was raised as a Christian, so I know that most non-Jewish people are simply uninformed of Jewish history and religion.

 

You should know that the Shoah was a turning point in the Jewish mind. The common understanding today is that prior to that time, it was thought that G-d came to the rescue of "his people" and brought them out of bondage in Egypt.

 

When G-d did NOT rescue them from the hands of the Nazi's - despite being a hundred times more horrific than the Egyptian bondage - they came to the conclusion that G-d was not responsible for their well-being. WE are:

 

“If I am not for myself, who will be for me?

If I am only for myself, what am I?

And, if not now, when?” –Hillel

 

NORM

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I did not mean to sound anti-semetc...if so it wasn't intentional. And, I had forgotten you are Jewish, certainly meant no offence to you.

As in any group of people, whether Jews, Christians, or just the people in a local church, it can be and often is a very small minority that hold am extreme or fanatical view, but that for their zeal are often so loud and obvious, their behaviors come to seem the general attitude of the whole or at least most the group. Just as we sometimes here speak probably more than we should of expereicnes of unbeleivable ignorance and even cruelty of some that have extremized their views within the more fundamentalist evangelical Christian communties, that have hurt so many and turned so many away from that form of religion. Now i know as well as anybody not ALL the people there are like those, however, the pushiness of those present means that is what you are going to have to confront in that environment before you get to the 'good one', and it be just not worth it.

 

That the holocaust had PROFOUND effect on the Jewish and other people that suffered through that, and I know I cannot even imagine how it actually did. It would be disrepsectful and even quite ignorant of me to even suggest I might be able to...no one that hasn't gone through something like that can possibly do so. That it would have, as you say, had dramatic impact on their traditional beleif that God would deliver them and yet failed to do so under such horrendous condtions, seems only natural.

 

Part of my perceptions may well have to do with having some contact with and exposure to the ideas, beliefs, and attitudes, of some present day Zionist Jews, as well as some Zionist Christians, between which there is a rather strange, uneasy relationship, in some aspects quite absurd, actually. Those Zionist Jews I've encounted definitely DO have such tradtional beleifs based attitudes of that kind I mentioned, quite arrogance and superior. Those Zionist Christians I mention, at least in the "active form" I've encountered them, that are in that strange relationship with some Zionist Jews, actually believe their part as Christians is to support and advance the zionist cause in any way they can, from money donated to Jewish zionist, some even militant Jewish zionist groups, to even participating in cattle breeding programs where the intent is to produce the "perfect red heifer without blemish" that the zionists beleive they must have at ready to sacrfice in dedication of the new temple to be built. The absurdity comes in that the Christians, of course, think it is going to be the Christians raised to power in that "Day of the Lord" when Jesus returns, and all those non-converted Jews are going to perish anyway. They are using each other! One of the readings for a Religous studies course, Clash of Civilizations, was a book written from a Jewish perspective by a Jew, on these matters. Can't recall the title or author right now, and the book isn't out here in my front bookcase, so....

But interesting, I thought at the time, and have thought since, occasionally crossing paths with zionist Christians, is that those Christians gush about their 'love' for the Jews, that in truth boils down to belief that if they are friends to those Jews help them in their cause, they will be blessed and rewarded by God for it.

So while for many present day Israelies, this is all a secular matter, for some others, still zionist, it isn't, and even those secular, that had their beliefs of a messiah crushed in the holocaust, there are still thousands of years of those beleifs conditioned into many of their heritages.

 

Jenell

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Norm wrote: The majority of Jews who believe that they are entitled to the settlements do so for more secular reasons: a.) they fought a war for the territory and won

 

 

While i understand them having that view, I also think that is a view that has become less and less acceptable to human thought in general over the past several centuries. I know it was in the past always the case when one group of people over ran another to obtain land, it was just accepted the present occupants would be either driven out, to go find uninhabited land or land they could take from someone even weaker, or be slaughtered in a mass genocide with maybe survivors made into slaves, our world view and human conciousness has been evolving away from that.

 

The European settlers of our own country did the same to the native peoples here at the time, and that was an atrocity. But by the time the United State aquired the major part of its southwestern territory from Mexico, it has already begin to change. Mexican residents on that land were granted by treaty rights of US citizens, and most importantly, their present land and property holdings were to be honored. It didn't quite work out that way, many ignored the treaty and drove them out or took their land anyway, but at least there was thought and effort toward it.

 

The most horrible atrocites in recent years have involved that, one people conquering another and driving out or slaughtering the previous inhabitants, mostly in many African countries. While I don't think the world at large has responded adequatly to intervene, but at least most now have conscience against it. We think of it as "wrong".

 

In the Israelie matter, there simply was no place for the people inhabiting that land to go...we no longer live on a plant with wide open spaces of unihabited land for populations to move into. The land of Palistinean people was just taken from them, without even recompense that would have allowed them to move and establish new homes elsewhere. I know money was "given", but, not to people, displaced families. It was "given" in funds to be used communally, building shcools and other publc facilites in the grossly over-popuated pockets of land the people were driven into. Clearly there is only one effective "solution" to the Palistinean "problem" from the position of Israel and nations that support Israel....and that is genocide of the Palistinean people. There is no other way, as long as Israel demands hold on the land, and right to eliminate Palistinean presence. Sonce there is no other place to go, the Palistineans can only be pushed into the sea and drown or otherwise eliminated. And that is haow it has hisotrically been done, it is how it was done by the Jews in so many of the mass slaughters, genocides, in OT biblical accounts.

 

Perhaps with Jewish history in that respect, traditions of the Hebrew bible that suggest God sanctioned such acts, added to what would be a natural "hardening of the hearts" of those people that suffered so horrible in the holocaust, they really don't see it that way, as "wrong." Great trauma and tragedy often does, unfortunately, have that hardening effect on survivors. Perhaps part of the Israelie arrogance and lack of compassion for the Palistinean peoples' plight comes out of a determined "drive to survive" by any means, that is in response to both their own long exile and the horrors they suffered in the holocaust. All of which keeps them from seeing that they are on course to do the same things to others, the Palistineans, as others, the nazis, did to them.

 

It is indeed a very sad situation, with no forseeable "good" outcome. For two peoples, both claiming the same space, the same homeland, there can be only one outcome, and that is for one to be eliminated by the other. How will our world respond to that? I don't know. I just know it is inevitable.

 

Jenell

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It isn't a sweeping claim, its a recognition of a real source of tensions and problems between Jewish settlements in many countries, under many different state. It has been a problem that arises out of their basic belief in their Torah and subsequent legal codes as fundamentally granted them by God, and determination that is above any "man-made" system of laws in other countries they've settled in.

 

I disagree with your analysis and conclusions. The difficulty Jews have faced is not about 'religious arrogance' it is about ethnic difference. Since the Diaspora, they have been a minority wherever they lived and they insisted on maintaining their ethnic differences (which of course includes religion). In Europe, because of discrimination and the Christian prohibition against usury, Jews became bankers and money exchangers (money lenders) which was a profession disdained, although needed and used by Christians. In the Holocaust, as an example, there was no religious test, the determination was racial.

 

Also, FWIW, Israel was not founded on religion, the early Zionists, for the most part, were not only secular but many were anti-religious. Many religious European, Jewish leaders were opposed to the settlement of Israel until the Holocaust. Then, it became clear to almost all Jews, religious and secular, that a homeland was necessary for their survival as a distinct ethnic group.

 

Their sin was a failure to completely assimilate and maintain their ethnicity about which I think they have every right to do.

 

George

Edited by GeorgeW
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George, I acknowledge you are probably correct that this involved ethnic/cultural difference rather than just religious deifference, and that any religious influence is simply a part of that overall cultural/ethnic difference. And in any way I might have waded off into muck in this, that might offended any, I truly apologize.

 

There is no doubt there are particularly difficult tensions and problems related to any cultural/ethnic group that has or does try to maintain their distinct tradtional ethnicity and culture within their own discreet communties within other cultures, societies, rather than integrating into them. This has been particularly true of any number of ethnic peoples that we might say are, a "people without a country", that live in diaspora state without a homeland. That has been historically true of the other ethnic community I mentioned in connection to the Nazi holocaust, the Romany peoples. And closer to home, it has definitely been a source of difficulty among our own native peoples in the U.S., to the extent any have attempted to remain in culturally/ethnicly distinct communties within this country.

 

I do not see the Jews', or any other such distinct ethnic groups', refusal to integrate as their sin, but more so the sin of others not accepting them doing so.

 

I feel I must add, that with exception of those very zionist Jews I have encountered, all of the other people I've known, that I knew to be Jewish, were either only casually observant in their religion, or open as atheist.

 

Jenell

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George, you say the zionist initiative to establish a state and settle Israel was not religous based. Howver, considering the Jews had not occupied that land in almost 2000 yrs, why would they have wanted specifically that land and location, rather than some other in the world, that where they was not already a long established population? With US and Allied support backing them, surely there were less populated regions in the world where they could have settled and established their new state, without violently displacing an existing long established population of inhabitants? What other reason for it to have to be Israel, rather than any other, if not for religious reasons? There is no other example in the world I can think of where there has been support for present inhabitants in a land being violently or otherwise displaced, based on a claim of "homeland" by those for whom it has not been their homeland for thousands of years. That's really a question about it I've found no answer to or explanation for.

 

Can we even imagine if native American peoples were to uprise against present Americans of European and other "Old World" descent, so as to drive out and displace them, with world support in their doing so, so as to return this "homeland" to those people? And the Native Americans lost this land only several hundred years ago, while the Jews had not held that land in over 2000 years. Of course, many of mixed blood such as myself, would be in a terrible plight were that to happen, I suppose they'd have to tear my body in half and send half of it into exile.

 

Jenell

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George, you say the zionist initiative to establish a state and settle Israel was not religous based. Howver, considering the Jews had not occupied that land in almost 2000 yrs, why would they have wanted specifically that land and location, rather than some other in the world, that where they was not already a long established population?

 

A Jew doesn't need to be religious to know that Israel was the origin of the Jewish people before they were dispersed by the Babylonians and then the Romans.

 

George

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Jenell,

 

I am a big supporter of Palestinian rights, in money contributed, in membership in groups that promote a just peace, in letters to our local paper, etc. But, I don't think I have to deny history, Jewish identity or rights in order to support Palestinian rights.

 

I am not suggesting that you are doing this. But, I have read many things that deny the Holocaust, deny that Israeli Jews are really Jews, and on and on. And, these are, mistakenly in my view, done to promote the Palestinian cause. I don't think it takes a distortion of history to recognize the rights of Palestinian people. For the record, there is also distortion on the other side as well - see Newt Gingrich's recent statement about Palestinians being "an invented people."

 

George

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I did not mean to sound anti-semetc...if so it wasn't intentional. And, I had forgotten you are Jewish, certainly meant no offence to you.

 

I took no offense, so not to worry on that score.

 

As in any group of people, whether Jews, Christians, or just the people in a local church, it can be and often is a very small minority that hold am extreme or fanatical view, but that for their zeal are often so loud and obvious, their behaviors come to seem the general attitude of the whole or at least most the group.

 

I don't think this is necessarily what is happening here. I think there is profound confusion, and misinformation concerning the whole situation in the Middle East. The history is very complex, and the politics even more mind-bending. I can tell you without hesitation that the majority of Jews living in Israel wish to coexist with their Palestinian neighbors. There is, as you susggest, a very noisy contingent proclaiming ownership of the disputed territories, or the West Bank, as Palestinians prefer to call it.

 

The Likud Party (center right - roughly equivalent to our Republican Party, but not as far right as, say; Tea Party Conservatives) controls the Knesset right now. Up until the early 80s, Israel was left leaning, and well on its way to coexistence with their Arab neighbors in the disputed territories (those "won" by the Six Day War in 1967). Particularly following the Yom Kippur War in 1973, Israel began negotiating in earnest with the Palestinians. But, pressure from Zionists (who tend more toward the conservative parties), and those with deep-seated hatred for the Palestinians continue to press for settlement in the Golan Heights and other developments in the disputed territories.

 

some Zionist Jews, actually believe their part as Christians is to support and advance the zionist cause in any way they can, from money donated to Jewish zionist, some even militant Jewish zionist groups, to even participating in cattle breeding programs where the intent is to produce the "perfect red heifer without blemish" that the zionists beleive they must have at ready to sacrfice in dedication of the new temple to be built. The absurdity comes in that the Christians, of course, think it is going to be the Christians raised to power in that "Day of the Lord" when Jesus returns, and all those non-converted Jews are going to perish anyway. They are using each other! One of the readings for a Religous studies course, Clash of Civilizations, was a book written from a Jewish perspective by a Jew, on these matters. Can't recall the title or author right now, and the book isn't out here in my front bookcase, so....

But interesting, I thought at the time, and have thought since, occasionally crossing paths with zionist Christians, is that those Christians gush about their 'love' for the Jews, that in truth boils down to belief that if they are friends to those Jews help them in their cause, they will be blessed and rewarded by God for it.

So while for many present day Israelies, this is all a secular matter, for some others, still zionist, it isn't, and even those secular, that had their beliefs of a messiah crushed in the holocaust, there are still thousands of years of those beleifs conditioned into many of their heritages.

 

I truly wish that Christians - Zionist Christians? - would stay out of Jewish issues. These folks aren't helping, and quite possibly; are doing serious harm.

 

NORM

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Thank you that are more informed on Israeli matters, especially Norm, i am processing and learning here.

 

As I said, I'm not trying to be anti-semtic, don't think i am....and I certainly do not deny or even doubt the holocause, I cannot understand how any do. Nor have I any hostility toward the Jewish people.

As for the matter of Jewish history, you don't have to go to religion to support ot, I know that as well. I have no doubt that was the place of origin of the Jewish people, and they occupied that land but that has been several thousand years ago. Not recently. I was putting that in comparison to such as our Western hemisphere, North American especially, we accept the historical fact that for native American peoples, this, too was their "homeland" until only several centuries ago, when Europeans invaded, were victorious and violently took their land. That why would we recognize the "homeland" claim of Israel, but not that of others even more recently displaced? It seems to me, in that argument, Native American peoples would have a stronger, at least more recent, claim on this land, than Jews do on Israel.

 

Norm, about Christians, Zionist Christians particularly, needing to stay out of it, and doing more harm than good, I absolutely agree. And this is pretty much how that subject was covered in that Clash of Civilizations course I took, in which I read the book I mentioned, written by what I guess you would call a 'moderate' Jew...one that seemed to have some good sense about him, anyway, lol...that the activity of extemeist zionist Jews, especially extremisit religious, and extemeist zionist Christians IS a dangerous threat to everyone concerned, Jews, the Israeli state, Palistineans, arabs, and anyone else mixed up in those conflicts attempts toward reconciliation of issues and peace. As was presented in that book and course, it seems those extremist groups, both religious zionist Jews, who actually also seem to hate even other Jews that are moderate or non-religious, and zionoist Christians, do NOT want peace, they WANT to inflame the conflict, both pretty much for the same reason, thinking to hasten this "Great Day of the Lord" / "Second coming of Jesus" scenario.

 

Things about it, like the efforts to breed the "perfect red heifer without blemish" might seem silly and laughable, except that they are so serious about it....they actually thought they had her a few years back, a solid red heifer born to a black and white spotted dairy cow, that they named "Melody"....there was some going on about her birth out of the black and white cow being even "miraculous", with it being left as something of an after note that the heifer had been produced using semn from a red bull of an all red breed from somewhere in europe...harly a miracle! However, "Melody" dashed their hopes by sprouting a few white hairs in her tail and a few other places on her body, making her no longer "perfect", so the search goes on. With the help of breeders dedicated to producing her of course. The whole thing is of course rather complicated when it comes to help from cattle breeders outside Israel, becasue supposedly the heifer itself MUST be actually born in Israel to "qualify."

Really scary to add to this situation is that among those that believe this red heifer thing, is that it being born is being taken as a "sign from God" that once they have her ready, it is time for them, to really get radical, and storm the Temple mound or whatever, promote full blown war, both in Israel and abroad, and if/when that happens, we are possibly in for a really rough international incident. So in that aspect, these extremists may be as big a threat as the Muslim extremists! And of course both zionist Jews and Christians expecting themeelves to be lifted to power to rule over the whole world while the other gets squashed.

 

 

Jenell

Edited by JenellYB
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Jenell,

 

I really don't know what to say about all that. Red Heifers? Do these fools think that just breeding a red heifer is going to bring about the Second Coming? There's the small matter of rebuilding the Temple - which will never happen because there are such a small number of Jews who have any interest in bringing back animal sacrifice. ... Oy!

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Lol.....no kidding, a prefect red heifer without blemish, supposedly to sacrifice an the altar fo the the temple to be built. Required to "dedicate and sanctify" the new temple, something like that.

There has also been some pretty violent incidents afainst Muslims, some at prayer at Abraham's tomb shot up and killed, stuff like that. Stuff that really excalates hatred from the muslim community, naturally. Also, I did not know any Jews still did live animal sacrifice, but it may not have been actually a video of a sacrfice we watched, maybe preparing for passover? IT was filmed within one of the extremsist zionist communties...the had to show us the little children carrying the cute little baby goats of course, before they laid them across a rock and slit their throats...once bled, they were quickly skinned and gutted and haggled up into hunks of meat each family took to their own home for whatever it was. I do think it was passover. all seemed rather barbaric and gruesome. No i don't think these are exactly main line Jews.

 

Btw, remember the course I was taking WAS Clash of Civilizations, the focus WAS on the tensions points and conflicts involved over there, not just a course depicting Judism. We covered those flash points at quite a few points of contact between different people/nations/cultures in the middle east. and down into India, and up into eastern Europe and the Caucuses, etc. It was NOT only on the Israelie/Palistinean tensions.

 

Jenell

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The Palestinian/Israeli situation is complex with overlapping rights. In addition to historical distortions, there are two distinct historical narratives that are accurate, but fail to acknowledge the other.

 

One involves forced alienation from their homeland and always living as a minority with discrimination and sometimes brutal repression. I think all Jews are aware of the potential that they could face similar situations in the future and see Israel as a safe harbor.

 

The other narrative involves people living in the land for generations and then being displaced by an alien (principally European) group of people who left millennia ago.

 

Fortunately, neither of these narratives entail religion per se (except on the fringes). Were this added to the emotional attachments and geopolitical factors, the situation could end up with a genocide being the resolution.

 

George

Edited by GeorgeW
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George, I think that's a good assessment. As for the genocide possibility, I think the changing world-view, global consciousness and collective conscience, over the past several centuries, and very much a part of what has brought that about WAS the holocaust itself, has much to do with Israel not having exercized genocide against the Palistinean people already. And please, I do not intend that in any way anti-semetic, or as a criticism or judgement against the Jews in particular, but as simple given history, until recently, that was common and even standard practice of one peoples moving into and taking by violence land from existing inhabitants, just as one done here in our own country's past. Also no doubt a part of what has prevented it having already happened has been the size and scope of the Arab/Muslim world, that has stood backing the Palistineans, that in Israel undertaking something like in an obvious manner would brought them up against a greater force of the Muslim world, than even the western world would have been willing to support and back them in. And, I think most of us know that a full blown confrontation between Israel and the Muslim world could even yet be in the future.

As has been noted, there is so much complexity in the history of conflict and turmoil of the whole of the middle east, India, nother Africa, it would be impoassible to sort out at this point anyone's "rights" and "wongs" by any historical evaluation. That part of the world, just as the rest of the world, where it is today, as it is today, and that has to be the starting point for anything else.

 

Jenell

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Lol.....no kidding, a prefect red heifer without blemish, supposedly to sacrifice an the altar fo the the temple to be built. Required to "dedicate and sanctify" the new temple, something like that.

 

Well, the red heifer had a specific purpose - don't remember what, but it had nothing to do with dedicating the Temple. That is accomplished with incense and drink offerings. I think it had to do with the ordination of priests that had access to the Temple.

 

Also, I did not know any Jews still did live animal sacrifice, but it may not have been actually a video of a sacrfice we watched, maybe preparing for passover? IT was filmed within one of the extremsist zionist communties...the had to show us the little children carrying the cute little baby goats of course, before they laid them across a rock and slit their throats...once bled, they were quickly skinned and gutted and haggled up into hunks of meat each family took to their own home for whatever it was. I do think it was passover. all seemed rather barbaric and gruesome. No i don't think these are exactly main line Jews.

 

I learned to hunt with Native Americans, so I have actually killed, gutted and skinned an animal. It is not pleasant work, but I would suggest everyone should do this at least once. If you then remain a meat eater, at least you know the cost.

 

I don't know any Jewish families who wish to resume animal sacrifice. Oh, wait. I take that back. I did once know a man who converted to Judaism from Christianity who went Hassidic. He actually did animal sacrifice in his garage when he still lived in America. He moved his wife (one of my close friends, damn him!) to Israel and now lives in an ultra-ortodox community. I wouldn't be surprised if the video you saw had him in it. He actually sacrificed one of my pet rabbits.

 

NORM

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The Palestinian/Israeli situation is complex with overlapping rights. In addition to historical distortions, there are two distinct historical narratives that are accurate, but fail to acknowledge the other.

 

Bravo! That is perhaps one of the most concise and to-the-point distillations of the Israeli-Palestinian situation. I would add the meddlesome Balfour Decision as the crock pot into which the whole mess was hatched.

 

One involves forced alienation from their homeland...I think all Jews are aware of the potential that they could face similar situations in the future and see Israel as a safe harbor.

 

It's the disease of modern mankind. We like the comfort of a raggedy border and a happy flag.

 

The other narrative involves people living in the land for generations and then being displaced by an alien (principally European) group of people who left millennia ago.

 

Fortunately, neither of these narratives entail religion per se (except on the fringes). Were this added to the emotional attachments and geopolitical factors, the situation could end up with a genocide being the resolution.

 

George

 

This is a good point, George. Most tend to lump the Palestinians in with the radical fundamentalists like al-Qaeda. That's a different fight.

 

NORM

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Actually, a signficant percentage of the displaced Palastineans were/are Christians, mostly Orthodox.

It has now also been verfied by DNA that most Palastineans are not Arabic in racial origin, but actually eastern European/Baltic/ caucuses regions, actually very much the same as many Jews.

 

Jenell

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It has now also been verfied by DNA that most Palastineans are not Arabic in racial origin, but actually eastern European/Baltic/ caucuses regions, actually very much the same as many Jews.

 

"Verified?" Can you cite an authoritative source for this?

 

What if it were true, would that disqualify them from living on their land? Is race the test we should use? Further, 'Arab' is not a race. Arab is someone who speaks Arabic as a first language. There are black Arabs, there are blond Arabs, there are red-haired Arabs, there are brown Arabs.

 

FWIW, anti-Semites use a similar argument about Israelis who came from Europe. The claim is they are not racially Jews. There are two problems with this. The first is it is factually wrong. Second, so what? What if someone's ancestors converted to Judaism centuries ago? Does that mean they are not Jewish? Did that insulate them from Hitler's ovens?

 

George

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George, first, my source of the DNA reference was actually a couple PBS documentaries, and several articles on this I've read, (but no, don't have immediate reference to, or recall the name of the man that led this study) pertaining to a major DNA study of the relatedness of peoples around the world, that has contributed significantly in helping more accurately re-construct the origins and migrations of various populations. It was through that study it has been established that the most closely related population to Native American peoples in our own SW, Navajo, Hopie, Pueblo, Apaches and others of that region, is actually the peoples of central Asia, especially the Mongolians.

 

The reference to the point of origin of both the present Palistineans AND ancient Hebrews (might be more accurate than Jews, since it can be confused, as here,with modern Jews) was eastern Europe, baltic, caucuses regions. PRE-Biblical origins, not recent movements. It is suggested present day indignous Palistinean population likely descends from Cananites, down through what are referenced in the bible as Samaritons.

 

My reference to Arabic populations as major ancestral connections in present day Palistineans is to the ancient nomadic peoples of the Sanai pennensula and what is now Saudi Arabia from which today's arabic population descended. My use of "Arabic" here may well be in error, for the groups ofpeople I am referring to, but at this moment I do not recall what those people might be called, apart from our present connection of them to the Arabic language.

 

Jenell

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I think one point of confusion, error here, and I've been making it as much as anyone, is that of equating as if allthe same and interchangeable, which they really are not:

 

Hebrew (existant pre-Israel)

 

Israelite (citizens of ancient nation Israel, generally being Hebrews, established after the Exodus, among which the religion of Judism originated)

 

Jews or Jewish people (an ethnic group, centered around the Jewish religion, that originated within Israel, but was also later molded and shaped through those people's later experiences, Babylonian exile, Disasporas, etc, that has continued even to today)

 

The ancient nation of Israel VS modern Israeli state

 

Israelites (orginal, ancient Israel) vs Israelies (citizens of modern nation state of Israel.

 

And that all naturally gets very confusing in trying to discuss any thing related to any of it.

 

As for the recent/present attempts to use recent (after exile. Diaspora) infusions of other "blood", Eastern European or otherwise, into the Jewish ethnic group as it exists today, even that many Jewish that have relocated to Israel from Europe, may have no "original Hebrew/Israelite "blood" at all due to "conversions", I do not myself see that as a valid reason to discredit any claims on Israel based on ETHNICITY of modern Jewish people. IE, as a valid and distinct ETHNIC group.

 

However, it does raise some questions, that I think are valid ones, of the actual nature of that claim. IF that claim IS based on ethnic group, the infusion of other, non-Hebrew, non-ancient Israelites, "blood" into modern Jewish geneologies, then there is no problem.

 

But, in any claims that might be based on primarily religious related questions pertaining to geneology, actual biological descent from the Hebrew/Israelite populations, is does raise some potential problems. Given that biblical references to God's special relationship with and covenents God entered into with those ancient peoples so often were connected to certain people "and their biological descendants, there does raise the question of, were those covenents established with a people within a cultural, ethnic, or religous group, or with a biologically, geneologically, related group and their biological descendants?

 

Again, i am NOT presenting this as my own argument against any claim relevant today, just that for some, this can be a point in question, and one I have heard raised.

 

Jenell

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George, first, my source of the DNA reference was actually a couple PBS documentaries, and several articles on this I've read, (but no, don't have immediate reference to, or recall the name of the man that led this study) pertaining to a major DNA study of the relatedness of peoples around the world, that has contributed significantly in helping more accurately re-construct the origins and migrations of various populations. It was through that study it has been established that the most closely related population to Native American peoples in our own SW, Navajo, Hopie, Pueblo, Apaches and others of that region, is actually the peoples of central Asia, especially the Mongolians.

 

The reference to the point of origin of both the present Palistineans AND ancient Hebrews (might be more accurate than Jews, since it can be confused, as here,with modern Jews) was eastern Europe, baltic, caucuses regions. PRE-Biblical origins, not recent movements. It is suggested present day indignous Palistinean population likely descends from Cananites, down through what are referenced in the bible as Samaritons.

 

My reference to Arabic populations as major ancestral connections in present day Palistineans is to the ancient nomadic peoples of the Sanai pennensula and what is now Saudi Arabia from which today's arabic population descended. My use of "Arabic" here may well be in error, for the groups ofpeople I am referring to, but at this moment I do not recall what those people might be called, apart from our present connection of them to the Arabic language.

Jenell

 

I have read a great deal about the Palestinians and I have never seen this DNA test mentioned. I would be interested if you could find a credible reference. I have read several things about the DNA of European Jews that do show links to the Middle East.

 

People from the Arabian Peninsula did spread out and conquer much of the Middle East and parts of Europe. They spread Islam and their language. However, it would be a huge stretch to claim that all, or even most, Arabs are descendants of these people. There were many indigenous people living in these regions who lived to reproduce themselves.

 

George

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Strange where this thread has led. Here is a link to an article about genetic markers in Jewish and some Palestinian populations. I have not read it carefully but I do think it is reputable. Perhaps the Palestinian question relates to the issue of the Cohanim. a unique line the J1 haplogroup. About 1/4 down the page is a table.

 

http://www.jogg.info/11/coffman.htm

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Strange where this thread has led. Here is a link to an article about genetic markers in Jewish and some Palestinian populations. I have not read it carefully but I do think it is reputable.

 

Yeah, it is strange where these discussions lead.

 

Thanks for the link. I glanced through it and it seems to be about the DNA of European Jews. There has been much written about this. What I have never seen is anything that demonstrates "that most Palestinians are not Arabic in racial origin." Although this could be the case if "Arabic" is narrowly defined as originating in the Arabian Peninsula. However, 'Arab' is generally defined as someone who speaks Arabic as a first language.

 

But, all of this begs the question, is race the test we should use to determine rights? What if we could prove that some Israeli Jew, whose parents were exterminated in Hitler's ovens, had ancestors who 500 years earlier converted to Judaism? Must she return to Hamburg? What if we proved that some Palestinian's ancestors, whose family had farmed a particular property for 10 generations, didn't come from the Arabian Peninsula. Must she forfeit her land rights? Where do we propose she must go?

 

George

Edited by GeorgeW
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