GeorgeW Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 No offense to anyone but God should be sued for negligence. It was an out-of-court settlement. George Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JenellYB Posted January 26, 2012 Author Share Posted January 26, 2012 ROFL @ Matt! I had an uncle that, in his 60's, had waged a mighty battle against cancer and won....I remember him talking about how during that time he'd spent a lot of time in the book of Job, it had been a source of strength and solace for him, except, however, when he got to the last part, and all he could think was, Oh my God NO! I don't want any more Children!! jenell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulS Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 I struggle with this and still don't undersatnd your answer when it concerns what an innocent child has to 'learn' from such circumstances. What are they being taught? Maybe I'm missing something, but I just don't get it Paul, I can't answer your question, because my suffering is not along those lines. From my suffering I learned many things about myself, the world, and the situations I was in. In fact, I am greatful that those things happened to me in the exact ways they occured. I am talking about the big things such as rejected from family, country and the people closest to me because of a different ideology. I learned and evolved and feel I want and can help others because I went through such experiences. I find my service is even selfish because I get so much from the experience. It seems the service causes the same stimulus for physical and spiritual evolution that suffering caused. I too have learned from my own experiences, so I agree with you that we can/do learn from our suffering (if we are prepared to, particularly). But I'm still trying to understand how you would accept that the sexual abuse instance I imagined, should be regarded by the victim as for their good. I just can't imagine how a young kid being treated in this manner, should somehow be expected to 'enjoy the big picture' of the all pervading consciouness of God in every form. I don't think you mean that they have somehow been 'put' into this pain to learn a lesson, but I'm genuinely struggling to formulate a way of translating what you said ("I feel there must be a purpose for suffering. It must be for our good.") into this scenario. Do you think that 'God' causes the situation for us to learn from, or do you mean that this stuff just happens, however God is there to help the individual? Please know that I don't wish to sound like I've got any axe to grind here, just trying to understand your thoughts on the matter. You often make a lot of sense to me but this one I don't quite get. Cheers Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JenellYB Posted January 27, 2012 Author Share Posted January 27, 2012 In the matter of whether and had now any of us might bring something positive from our suffering, as well as any and all other kinds of experiences we may have, is, I think, contengent on a whole lot of things, variables, from one person to another and to the details and nature of anywhole situation. No doubt, I've learned from some difficult experiences, including the relativly few and relatatively minor that I would honestly consider involving suffering. I cannot possibly say I know fully all of why I was able to bring something positive out of any of it or even how I came to do so. But I think I've considered upon that enough to accept as true, that I did so, and how I did so, had a lot to do with two major factors. First is that my getting through those times and experiences, and how I was able to bring something positive out of them, has had much to do with my having signficant resources, both inner and outer, upon which to draw support as well as provide me tools, againt both inner and outer, in doing so. And, for those inner resources, I was able to make the most of those that were outer. The second is that to me, as is naturally so for many of us, my own situations and occasions of suffering seemed at times much much worse than they actually were/are, when viewed from the perspective of any scale of degrees of suffering possible and common in human experience. I've found important in dealing with my own experiences, recognizing that and putting them into a more realistic perspective...when I do that honestly, much of what I might feel as suffering, and even that others would also call suffering if knowing details, even as major suffering, is actually pretty far down the scale of what others are commonly caused to endure. This is to say, I have realized that I've made a lot more of some of it than it actually was, when compared on such a scale. For that, I've realized, my own occasions of suffering simply cannot be compared, or used as an example how how people might deal with suffering that is far beyond anything I've expereinced on that scale. I've realized, not everyone that is caused to suffer has either the inner or outer resources I've had, and have now. My occasions of suffering have not been such as to have devasated my whole life and every area in it, as is the case for some that suffer much greater. For those such as children held captive in abusive slavery, or those caught between warring factions and genocides in an African nation, those forced to watch their children die of starvation before they succumb to it themselves, in my experiences, there were always resources that didn't leave me totally destitute, and there was always hope that it would end. That isn't true for eveyone and in all situations. I've never, as some, lost absolutely everything, never had my material resources reduced to such totality as a mother sitting in the dust of an African road, her dead baby laid out before her, and her other children clinging to her asthey too near death to starvation, while hundreds of others in the same plight stream past her in hopes of finding some refuge, some place to survive. We can preach never give up hope all we want, the reality is that sometimes having hope is an absurdity. To preach where there's a will there's always a way, and that in the site of the above link to suffering, to people sitting safe and comfortable in a Sunday School class or their warm cozy homes with plenty of food in the pantry, that people should respond to suffering by asking such questions as what does God want me to learn from this, what is God trying to say to me in this, and the like, reflects unbelievable ignorance (ignore-ance) of the facts in reality, and bluntly, is down right cruel when directed toward someone suffering. I posit that for myself, and perhaps for others here considering upon how we've been able to use suffering to learn and grow, we are at both at once inflating our own experiences of suffering and trivializing the degree of trauma in those that siffer much more truly than we ever have. That we have not really comprehended suffering at all, but have had merely a brief taste of it at the tip of our tongues. Or maybe even just a whiff of the odor of it. Jenell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NORM Posted January 28, 2012 Share Posted January 28, 2012 Maybe the concern is at a higher level than the individual human - species or world or universe or cosmos. George The only "concern" I ever see is from one human to another. I've not yet witnessed the concern or love of a supreme being. In fact, quite the opposite when you see human suffering on an epic scale. Of course, no one is suggesting that if there were indeed a superior creator-god type being, that it would have any responsibility to involve itself one way or the other. It's just that if one does exist, it isn't worthy of our praise, and certainly not our worship or obedience, because it doesn't show love and compassion toward suffering humanity. Maybe it's as Thomas Hardy suggested through the character of Tess of the d'Urberville's; "Did you say the stars were worlds, Tess?" "Yes." "All like ours?" "I don't know; but I think so. They sometimes seem to be like the apples on our stubbard-tree. Most of them splendid and sound—a few blighted." "Which do we live on—a splendid one or a blighted one?" "A blighted one." "'Tis very unlucky that we didn't pitch on a sound one, when there were so many more of 'em!" NORM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeorgeW Posted January 28, 2012 Share Posted January 28, 2012 It's just that if one does exist, it isn't worthy of our praise, and certainly not our worship or obedience, because it doesn't show love and compassion toward suffering humanity. What I was trying to suggest is that the concern or "compassion" may exist above the level of the individual. It may be at a systemic level. From the deer's perspective, there is evil in the world. From the wolf's perspective there is compassion for its hunger. At the system level, all is well. George Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JenellYB Posted January 28, 2012 Author Share Posted January 28, 2012 George wrote: From the deer's perspective, there is evil in the world. From the wolf's perspective there is compassion for its hunger. At the system level, all is well. And from species level of both deer and wolf, there is compassion toward a stronger, healthier next generation through this process of natural selection. Jenell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeorgeW Posted January 28, 2012 Share Posted January 28, 2012 And from species level of both deer and wolf, there is compassion toward a stronger, healthier next generation through this process of natural selection. Natural selection can be very cruel at the individual level but quite benevolent at the species level. George Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NORM Posted January 28, 2012 Share Posted January 28, 2012 What I was trying to suggest is that the concern or "compassion" may exist above the level of the individual. It may be at a systemic level. I don't see compassion at a systemic level. I see the opposite. I've been to the ghettos of Haiti, Sowetto and Gujarat. From the deer's perspective, there is evil in the world. From the wolf's perspective there is compassion for its hunger. At the system level, all is well. I'm not sure animals sense "evil." I think that is a human term. I just don't see evidence of any kind of "system," other than an apparent sense of order. However, I have friends who are molecular scientists, and they say that what appears to be order is not necessarily so. NORM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NORM Posted January 28, 2012 Share Posted January 28, 2012 I guess I just don't see how the terms compassion, benevolence, lovingkindness, etc., has anything to do with the way things are in the world. NORM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soma Posted January 28, 2012 Share Posted January 28, 2012 I struggle with this and still don't undersatnd your answer when it concerns what an innocent child has to 'learn' from such circumstances. What are they being taught? Maybe I'm missing something, but I just don't get it I tend to think of the omnipotence of consciousness and not so much in the goodness of God as most Christians do. I don’t think the common Christian thought is consistent with the existence of suffering or evil in the world. It doesn’t seem to be true with the reality of suffering and evil when Christians say God is all-powerful, and all good. It is not logical that he would allow evil or children to be sexually abused. I see a divine consciousness that proceeds from consciousness and leads back to consciousness or God if one chooses that term. I feel the universal consciousness embraces suffering as a consequence of freedom. Life includes suffering so not to suffer takes away the experience of life. I can only answer from my own experience. I feel I was abused as a child, but not sexually. Now, the hard part is what purpose does suffering serve? Suffering makes me conscious of my mortality. It reminds me of my weakness and my procession to death. `It seems to create an atmosphere that directs my mind towards the all-pervading consciousness that I sometimes ignore. This consciousness sings in pleasure, speaks in silence, but screams to me in pain. Yes, it sows the seeds of doubt, which lays the foundation for a new way of thinking, and living in hope. In the resurrection of Christ I see the suffering of Christ in eternity leads to glory. I feel this is what unites me with my fellow Christians because we share this belief. I feel where I differ is in my contemplation or meditation. When I go beyond my mind or cease the thought process, there is not suffering. This experience takes me beyond the promise of heaven and the removal of suffering and pain by placing me in the here and now of an all-pervading consciousness where suffering is merged with the whole. Is my contemplation a narcotic to get rid of the reality of suffering? I don’t know, I think my service to humanity is the narcotic because it helps me to work with other people’s suffering and at the same time remove my suffering. Suffering is real, the sexual abuse of children is real, but I feel so is the experience of an eternal pure consciousness. I feel hope and a taste of eternity in consciousness is a part of my reality that sends me forward in life and in my Christianity. I do not know where it is leading, but I know that the pure all-pervading consciousness of God is always present and where ever I go. It is there and here, everywhere. In silent compassion the always present consciousness of God is soothing, heartening and encouraging in a continuous presence if I am aware of it or not until I die. I hope this compassion is extended to the sexually abused children and the people that can help or change that situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeorgeW Posted January 28, 2012 Share Posted January 28, 2012 Norm, Clearly I am not expressing myself well. I am merely suggesting that because at our human level we perceive evil, at some higher level of the cosmos everything may be working quite well. I used the deer and wolf as a feeble attempt to show that there can be different perspectives on the same situation. Certainly I don't know, but it doesn't seem preposterous to me that we may not see the big picture from our very limited perspective. George Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulS Posted January 29, 2012 Share Posted January 29, 2012 Soma, Thanks for the further explanation. That makes a little more sense to me. I will think about what you say, some more. Cheers Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JenellYB Posted January 29, 2012 Author Share Posted January 29, 2012 Maybe a big part of the problem is this very designation of anything as "good" or "evil" or "bad"...when they simply just are. Good and evil are our value judgements, usually based on what we see most favorable and desirable to ourselves,from our perspective, and nothing more? Jenell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NORM Posted January 29, 2012 Share Posted January 29, 2012 Norm, Clearly I am not expressing myself well. I am merely suggesting that because at our human level we perceive evil, at some higher level of the cosmos everything may be working quite well. I used the deer and wolf as a feeble attempt to show that there can be different perspectives on the same situation. Certainly I don't know, but it doesn't seem preposterous to me that we may not see the big picture from our very limited perspective. George I agree that our problem (not really a problem as far as I'm concerned) is that we can only perceive reality from a human perspective. I'm just not convinced that it is necessary to evoke a divine presence to help explain everything, or that by contemplating the divine presence, it somehow makes what we perceive to be evil that much more "tolerable" because there is ultimately a (Divine?) Purpose. In fact, I find that thinking distasteful, because it means that there is some BEING f*ing with us for no apparent reason. I am at peace with the notion that there is no higher purpose. I find enough pleasure in my immediate experiences and future aspirations to compensate for the lack of an eternal ... whatever. I know what it is that you are saying. I'm just not agreeing that it is a.) likely, b.) necessary, or c.) that it really adds anything to the present reality. Sure, there may be some "BIG PURPOSE" out there that we are unaware of, but what point is there to being concerned with "IT" if "IT" is not concerned with us? NORM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulS Posted January 29, 2012 Share Posted January 29, 2012 Sure, there may be some "BIG PURPOSE" out there that we are unaware of, but what point is there to being concerned with "IT" if "IT" is not concerned with us? NORM It's a good point Norm and one which essentially is the whole reason I question there being a God, or ground of all being, or universal consciousness, etc. If 'IT' exists, I don't see how it offers us anything. That said, I do accept that for others it is an experiential thing, and I can't counter that other than to say "well that's their experience, but not mine". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NORM Posted January 29, 2012 Share Posted January 29, 2012 That said, I do accept that for others it is an experiential thing, and I can't counter that other than to say "well that's their experience, but not mine". Absolutely. My most favorite person in the whole world was my Old-timey, Baptist Grandmother. Although, in those days, Baptists tended to be Democrats rather than Republicans! NORM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeorgeW Posted January 29, 2012 Share Posted January 29, 2012 I agree that our problem (not really a problem as far as I'm concerned) is that we can only perceive reality from a human perspective. I'm just not convinced that it is necessary to evoke a divine presence to help explain everything, or that by contemplating the divine presence, it somehow makes what we perceive to be evil that much more "tolerable" because there is ultimately a (Divine?) What I am a suggesting is that atheism is not the only logical response to 'theodicy.' There isn't necessarily a contradiction between a 'loving god' and the presence of 'evil' in the world. There could be a 'loving god' with much human suffering. However, I do think theodicy presents a logical problem for biblical literalists. To reconcile an active, involved and 'loving' god with some of the biblical passages requires some serious mental contortions. George Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NORM Posted January 29, 2012 Share Posted January 29, 2012 There could be a 'loving god' with much human suffering.George This is true. However, why would anyone want to acknowledge or worship such a god? Maybe, I could see as a nod to being the Creator, and being thankful for life. But, in my way of thinking, it would be sort of like my adopted son's biological parents. They never spent one moment of their time to acknowledge his existence, let alone do any of the things a parent normally would do for their child. Consequently, he has absolutely no desire to know them or acknowledge them in any way. He considers us to be his real parents. And, in the same way, rather than acknowledge a G-d who is not concerened with me or anything about humankind, I have "adopted" the rest of mankind as my substitute deity. NORM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeorgeW Posted January 29, 2012 Share Posted January 29, 2012 This is true. However, why would anyone want to acknowledge or worship such a god? Maybe, I could see as a nod to being the Creator, and being thankful for life. Why not? I think the universe is marvelous thing. To insist that a god be focused on me seems very self centered. George Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NORM Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 Why not? I think the universe is marvelous thing. To insist that a god be focused on me seems very self centered. I wasn't talking about you or me. I was speaking of those unfortunates who live in places like Darfur. NORM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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