Relative And Absolute

[Ckangell]

It seems that many people accept the idea that our true essense is spirit and as such we have many human incarnations. Often people feel that our Spirit has a sort of knowledge that is capable of predetermining the conditions of our incarnation.

 

Perhaps.

 

But if there is some awareness or aspect of ourselves that can exist beyond our physical bodies, why is it assumed that it existed prior to this life?

 

Also many folks feel that "God" somehow exists beyond the realm of the relative universe (or universes) in a sort of absolute realm. As I understand this line of thought, it may be that all of the relative universe has come from God but it is still considered an illusion (presumably because of its temporal or changing nature) although it is an illusion necessary for our development as sentient beings. So our true destination then would be the realm of the absolute - the realm of the constant.

 

Yet that would seem contrary to the nature of life. Are not movement and change inherent qualities of life? It's not that I doubt the possibility of an existence beyond the body - it seems as likely as not. But I don't understand assumptions of a prior existence or the need for absolutes or the desire to conceive differing realms.

[AletheiaRivers]

Ckangell

 

Yet that would seem contrary to the nature of life. Are not movement and change inherent qualities of life?

 

Many religions, my old one included, teach that someday this earth will be changed by God into a paradise where "death will be no more".

 

I don't understand that anymore. Whether we live here in bodies that are somehow kept changeless or in an "absolute" realm (say heaven) where nothing chages either, it doesn't make sense. I don't know what the alternative would be? Continuous reincarnation? Death period with no more life?

 

What are your thoughts?

 

It's not that I doubt the possibility of an existence beyond the body - it seems as likely as not. But I don't understand assumptions of a prior existence

 

I used to believe that "Adam" was created in the beginning to BE a living soul. Then when I left my religion, I almost automatically came to believe that "Adam" was GIVEN a living soul. The words in Hebrew are quite ambiguous and can be translated different ways.

 

A friend recently replanted the idea in my mind that humans didn't have pre-existence. I thought about it from an "outside the Bible" point of view and realized how much more sense that makes.

 

I'm wondering if humans were created of this earth, but after death are changed to "spirits" that can reincarnate if necessary? Are there any "new" humans still being made? Are all the humans that exist now incarnations?

 

 

or the desire to conceive differing realms.

 

I am a panentheist. I think this universe (and all others) exist IN God. I find it to be a much more fulfilling way to picture God rather than God being "up there, in the sky, in a different realm."

 

Hey, thanks for posting. I've been thinking of the pre-existence (or not) of human souls a lot lately.

[Seeking]

I think that if there is pre-incarnation and reincarnation, then all absolutes would be voided. I mean to say that if that is so, then anything outside of our imagination could be possible.

[BeachOfEden]

"Many religions, my old one included, teach that someday this earth will be changed by God into a paradise where "death will be no more"."

 

Jw's teach this, true, and they are fundamentalists..but Hopi and other Native Americans as well as Bahia and 12 tribe Rastas also believe that this earth will be renewed..and they are very Progressive.

 

The Evangelicals and catholics believe that "death will be no more in heaven."

 

"I don't understand that anymore. Whether we live here in bodies that are somehow kept changeless or in an "absolute" realm (say heaven) where nothing chages either, it doesn't make sense. I don't know what the alternative would be? Continuous reincarnation? Death period with no more life?

 

What are your thoughts?"

 

I don't really understand what you are saying. In the religious world there are basically '4' beliefs. (1) You live forever in heaven. (2) You live live forever on earth. (3) You keep being reincarnated..untill you break the cycle..and then? I don;t know...you hope to cease to exist??? It's never been clearly defined to me by easterners...or (4) this life is all there is.

 

"I used to believe that "Adam" was created in the beginning to BE a living soul. Then when I left my religion, I almost automatically came to believe that "Adam" was GIVEN a living soul. The words in Hebrew are quite ambiguous and can be translated different ways."

 

Humm..not me. The idea of 'having' s soul, rather than being one..does not make sense to me.

 

"A friend recently replanted the idea in my mind that humans didn't have pre-existence. I thought about it from an "outside the Bible" point of view and realized how much more sense that makes."

 

The Mormons as well as some New Agers believe humans had a pre-life. My older brother belives this and he's like New Age. I don;t believe in this,though.

 

"I'm wondering if humans were created of this earth, but after death are changed to "spirits" that can reincarnate if necessary? Are there any "new" humans still being made? Are all the humans that exist now incarnations?"

 

That is a concept I don;t understand..but I know lots of people believe like this.

 

"I am a panentheist. I think this universe (and all others) exist IN God. I find it to be a much more fulfilling way to picture God rather than God being "up there, in the sky, in a different realm.""

 

I guess that might be like Waldo Emerson "Oversoul" concept. I don;t relate to it, though.

[Ckangell]

I'm wondering if humans were created of this earth, but after death are changed to "spirits" that can reincarnate if necessary?

 

I think these questions are relevent and that their answers are knowable and I've come across several ideas that I find provacative.

 

One is the image of Spirit as a Spark of the Divine. That is, Spirit is a creation (a gift or a birthing process) of Life. That Life (God) is the primal force of the Universe, that Life's nature is creative, and that the energy of creation is Love. So our Spirit is a expression of love by Life - and that being made in God's image and in Essense the same, it's also our nature to create or manifest as an expression of Love.

 

Another idea is similar to the concept of AI (artificial intelligence) - that the Mind/Spirit is a consequence of a complex organism. In this idea Mind/Spirit is a type of awareness resulting from incredibly complex chemical and electrical systems. That this awareness is a form of energy that has the potential to be developed, refined, and evolved beyond the body.

 

The first idea seems more poetic and beautiful and I enjoy it deeply on that level. The second idea is interesting in that it's an extension of the idea of evolution.

 

But I think these questions are relevent beyond the level of intrigueing curiosites. I believe they are relevent to the realization of our full capacity as beings.

Edited January 25, 2005 by Ckangell

[AletheiaRivers]

I just had this conversation in email with a friend. You sure your not him incognito?

 

The footnote in my study bible says:

 

"Human nature is not a duality of body and soul; rather God's breath animates the dust and it becomes a single living being."

 

Rabbi Harold Kushner made a beautiful point in a book I'm reading that God's Names as they are spoken in the original Hebrew - Ehyeh, Yhwh, have virtually no consonants. The Y's and H's don't interupt the flow of sound the way most consonants would. They are almost pure sound, almost like breathing.

 

He goes on to say that whereas animals were created with Word, humans were created with Breath. God brought Adam to life by breathing into him, putting a bit of the divine breath into him.

 

I've come to believe that we are here to cultivate that little bit of divine light that is in us. As we do so, we are transformed. Perhaps we have many lifetimes to do this, perhaps not.

 

I think Jesus (and Buddha and others) cultivated that "seed" and it tranformed them. Perhaps the "reward" or end result of that is immortality as shown in the resurrection. I think that is a beautiful way to view Jesus death and resurrection, as opposed to a substitutionary sacrifice.

 

Aletheia