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Does 'your' Christianity Involve The Supernatural?


Mike
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I spent three days once tripping on Magic Mushrooms (Psilocybin). I saw dead people riding horses and giant rabbits eating rocks. I watched my car melt into a puddle in the sand. At the time, and for many days afterward, I thought I actually saw those things.

 

The mind is a very powerful and (image)inative thing.

 

Which is one reason I tend not to place too much reliance on "experience" and revelation. Feelings like deja-vu are explained by the incredible power our mind has to retain bits of information and to recall them when an outside stimulus triggers the image. Our dreams are assemblages of these stored images that flicker past our sub-conscious mind in almost motion-picture like quality.

 

Placing too much faith in the sequences our mysterious brain conjure up is a bit like reading tea leaves, IMO.

 

NORM

 

 

I'm a full veteran of the psychedelic sixties, seen many hallucinations on several kinds of psychedelics. Was one of the '60's and '70's psychedelic artists as a matter of fact, (see painting below) and know the difference between hallucinogenic states and what I experienced for three days over Easter in 1979. And yes, I am the person who created Paxcalibur on God's inspiration. I can verify the story as true with people you can contact yourselves to validate what I've posted.

lewis_stephen_image01-1.jpg

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A belief in miracles and philosophical arguments may provide comfort and reassurance for some Christians but if the existence of God could be proven through miracles and philosophy, then it would take away the key Christian doctrine of faith.

 

Oh, I'm not arguing with that. At no point in my posts did I suggest one could prove faith.

 

However, at the same time, there has to a form of faith other than utterly blind faith. Faith seeking understanding, as Anselm of Canterbury puts it. Given one believes something, how can he or she interpret the world best? At that point, subjectivity, objective truth, and intellectual reasoning come to bear. Faith does not mean shutting one's eyes tightly and yelling, "Lalalalalalala I can't hear you". Or at least, it shouldn't.

 

Where does that initial, a priori faith come from? Grace, biology, socialization, random chance, a few other things to boot, I suspect. If I was more of a materialist, I'd probably leave out grace.

 

....am I basically agreeing with you, or have I missed the point again (I do that)?

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A belief in miracles and philosophical arguments may provide comfort and reassurance for some Christians but if the existence of God could be proven through miracles and philosophy, then it would take away the need for faith.

 

"Then Jesus said to him, "Unless you people see signs and wonders, you will by no means believe."

-Jn 4:48

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And yes, I am the person who created Paxcalibur on God's inspiration. I can verify the story as true with people you can contact yourselves to validate what I've posted.

If Paxcalibur is proof of the existence of a paranormal experience, then you can try winning a Noble Peace Prize or submit your discovery to James Randi's million dollar challenge. I'm sure they would be glad to verify its paranormal qualities.

 

However, at the same time, there has to a form of faith other than utterly blind faith. Faith seeking understanding, as Anselm of Canterbury puts it. Given one believes something, how can he or she interpret the world best? At that point, subjectivity, objective truth, and intellectual reasoning come to bear. Faith does not mean shutting one's eyes tightly and yelling, "Lalalalalalala I can't hear you". Or at least, it shouldn't.

Of course faith is more than just a blind denial of reality but I think too many Chrisitan apologists put too much stock into fancy philosophical arguments and they think if they can make a convincing enough word game that they've proven the existence of God and the same goes for counter arguments, but these philosophy arguments all amount to nothing more than word games. However, the Greek word psitis means commitment and trust, not belief in a correct set of doctrines or the paranormal and I don't see how you can prove commitment with a ghost story or an apologetic argument.

 

"Then Jesus said to him, "Unless you people see signs and wonders, you will by no means believe."

-Jn 4:48

And in Mark chapter 8, Jesus said

The Pharisees came and began to argue with him, asking him for a sign from heaven, to test him. And he sighed deeply in his spirit and said, ‘Why does this generation ask for a sign? Truly I tell you, no sign will be given to this generation.’ And he left them, and getting into the boat again, he went across to the other side.

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Of course faith is more than just a blind denial of reality but I think too many Chrisitan apologists put too much stock into fancy philosophical arguments and they think if they can make a convincing enough word game that they've proven the existence of God and the same goes for counter arguments, but these philosophy arguments all amount to nothing more than word games. However, the Greek word psitis means commitment and trust, not belief in a correct set of doctrines or the paranormal and I don't see how you can prove commitment with a ghost story or an apologetic argument.

 

yep, we're agreeing :)

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No matter how sure you may feel about what you experienced in you refered to 3 days, or that I might say I experienced at some time, or even what more than one person experienced in your related 'Paxacaliber' story.....

Plain and simple, it comes down to, no matter how valid "proof" it may seem to the one or ones that experience it, it is nothing beyond that individual anything but heresay, a story, that no one has any good reason to accept as true. Second and third hand heresay about the supposed miracles connected to you magic sword story offer no more "proof" of anything that in your story you say of the gospels.

As to what I'd say, since for some reason you (Waterbear) addressed it specifically to me, to being told there is a "real" magic sword? I don't believe in magic and magical thinking.

 

Jenell

Edited by JenellYB
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Cool painting! Looks...strangely....famiiliarrr....

 

Ha, ha! Unless you were a day tripper, then you know how slippery the line is that is the balance between reality and fantasy within the center of the mind.

 

and know the difference between hallucinogenic states and what I experienced for three days over Easter in 1979. And yes, I am the person who created Paxcalibur on God's inspiration. I can verify the story as true with people you can contact yourselves to validate what I've posted.

 

I'm sure that the Paxcalibur is a real sword. I'm not sure how a sword is proof of the supernatural just because you and some friends say so.

 

I occasionally experience flashbacks even to this day, and it has been well over 35 years since my last trip. Do you still have them?

 

NORM

 

edited out repeat of graphic. see original posting if desired. JosephM (as Moderator)

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Actually I'm still kinda stuck on that $1300 trip with a 3 day stay to Israel and back.....even back in 2003....now that's the real interesting trip here!

 

Not to mention outwitting the most sophisticated security on the planet! Now THAT'S a miracle.

 

NORM

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Well, there is the applicable passage, pearls before swine. I'm a Christian who knows the Spirit of Christ is real and that God and spiritual reality exist as well. It seems to me you folks have lost your spiritual rudders because unlike believers in God I find wherever my missionary work takes me, you don't recognize the Spirit in motion in our world when someone shows it to you. How else does a radical Gnostic Christian make solid lasting friendships with leaders of other faiths to whom my belief system is total heresy? And this ecumenicalism doesn't just exist within Abrahamic faith circles I've visited but includes Native Americans as well. Paxcalibur isn't the only great religious vision God has put on my plate. We all unite around witnessing the Spirit moving within my work. You don't see it because you don't want to see it. To see spiritual motion means there really is something to religious belief in God's existence..and that's a scary thought to intellectuals whose world is so utterly dependent on science of measurable material things and physical forces, i.e. the foundation of atheism.

 

Is this drift away from direct communion with God and towards reliance on self-centered personal reference what constitutes Progressive Christianity? I don't get what's particularly progressive about belief in spiritual reality being eroded away by secular speculations. Don't any of you experience the magic of witnessing God in our times? I'm sorry but without recognition of the Great Spirit of God you can't know the purpose of human life which is to evolve human beings into humane beings, this purpose being laid down right from the beginning of the desert religions in Egypt's Pyramid Texts and later passed into the Abrahamic religions. In order for the soul to enter into eternal life one must be a good person here on earth. Simple, but it takes religious effort to instill this moral compass into societies of human beings. It's still going on as the ancient Abrahamic formulations fail to satisfy modern needs for authenticity. This is why I'm working as a Jewish Christian prophesy bearer--to reestablish spiritual authenticity, a documented, verifiable record of divine intervention in our times.

 

You have an opportunity here with me to enter into dialogue with a Jewish Christian visionary with the same mindset as the ancient Hebrew prophets. I hope you don't waste the chance by falling back on territorial defenses of your own beliefs. If you screen out my input you do so in order to avoid facing the contradiction in your belief systems which have lost faith in the Spirit of God as a real force in our world. Prophesy bearers always bring news that few want to hear because they overthrow cherished beliefs. They rebuke unbelief as they provide new vision for belief. Seriously, your posted secular beliefs so thin in spiritual consciousness makes me wonder why you even bother to call yourselves "Christian" as you don't get the Spirit's basic Message of unification of humanity with God through the Christ's Son of Man tradition. Jesus Christ wasn't Socrates but it seems Progressives want to make him so. Jesus Christ was a God Man, a mythic Being for sure but one with a core belief system centered around some Jewish healer's struggle with authorities over spiritual identity and forgiveness of sins without which there cannot be peace on earth. What else would a God Man be described as in a Jewish framework but like Jesus Christ? What other religious icon has captured the reality of sacrifice of self for love of others than the dramatic and psychologically powerful image of crucifixion? This has always been the trigger image for waking up one's conscience, the God who could have it all but who sacrifices all for love of humanity. This is our model of self-sacrifice that God sent around the world.

 

Now God has sent the image of Peace around the world which made the miraculous reception of Paxcalibur possible in Nazareth and everywhere Pax has gone promoting the New Word of God that needs no words to "speak" God's desire for peace on earth.

Things are changing and Christianity is changing with it, no doubt about it, but doing the real changing in the authentic way, through new spiritual revelation. It cannot be done through intellectual effort. "Without signs and wonders, you people will in no wise believe."

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Cool painting! Looks...strangely....famiiliarrr.... Ha, ha! Unless you were a day tripper, then you know how slippery the line is that is the balance between reality and fantasy within the center of the mind. I'm sure that the Paxcalibur is a real sword. I'm not sure how a sword is proof of the supernatural just because you and some friends say so. I occasionally experience flashbacks even to this day, and it has been well over 35 years since my last trip. Do you still have them? NORM

 

No. I did take psychedelics, several types as our little hippie intellectual circle included a chemist who used us as guinea pigs for his various concoctions. But my system was too sensitive to handle psychedelics much so my actual trips were probably less than twenty with stuff like, LSD, peyote, psylocibin, etc, I hallucinated greatly of course being an artist visionary type and even with marijuana, my sacrament, I see fantastic "art" of all sorts behind my eyes and have heard some of the most awesomely beautiful music from my mind elaborating on common drone sounds like the refrigerator motor or rain on the roof. You don't get religious visions without altering your state of consciousness in my experience which matches the shaman knowledge universally found around the world. Even Jesus was said to have fasted for 40 days surely long enough to alter anyone's consciousness. What these visions produce is religious belief systems and a new one is in the making for our new aeon.

Edited by waterbear
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Well, there is the applicable passage, pearls before swine. I'm a Christian who knows the Spirit of Christ is real and that God and spiritual reality exist as well. It seems to me you folks have lost your spiritual rudders because unlike believers in God I find wherever my missionary work takes me, . . .

Waterbear,

 

If missionary work is your purpose here, you will not find a receptive audience. One's personal experiences are welcome. One's personal views are welcome. You will find that there is a lot of tolerance of diverse views, but insisting that one's experiences and views are universal 'truth' will only result in push back.

 

George

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Waterbear,

 

If missionary work is your purpose here, you will not find a receptive audience. One's personal experiences are welcome. One's personal views are welcome. You will find that there is a lot of tolerance of diverse views, but insisting that one's experiences and views are universal 'truth' will only result in push back.

 

George

 

Please, no bigotry against Christians who are walking the Christian path. If you want to attack Christianity's basic call to action why do you call yourselves "Christians"? Isn't that kind of the height of hypocrisy?

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Please, no bigotry against Christians who are walking the Christian path. If you want to attack Christianity's basic call to action why do you call yourselves "Christians"? Isn't that kind of the height of hypocrisy?

Waterbear,

 

Tolerance of a variety of views is not "bigotry against Christians." I do not want to attack anything other than claims of universal and exclusive truth. Because one identifies as a Christian does not mean that all other forms of belief are therefore wrong. And, Christianity itself is a big tent that encompasses widely diverse views.

 

If "call to action" means conversion of everyone to one's personal theology, we are going to differ profoundly. If "call to action" means living one's life as I understand Jesus would have it, then we are on common ground.

 

George

Edited by GeorgeW
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Well, there is the applicable passage, pearls before swine. I'm a Christian who knows the Spirit of Christ is real and that God and spiritual reality exist as well. It seems to me you folks have lost your spiritual rudders because unlike believers in God I find wherever my missionary work takes me, you don't recognize the Spirit in motion in our world when someone shows it to you.

Lawlz More like you're taking your Dungeons and Dragons fantasy about a government conspiracy to suppress a magic sword a wee bit too seriously ( the rest deleted) Edited by GeorgeW
disrespectful and lewd comment
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This thread has taken a turn that does not follow the purpose of this forum. While waterbear's initial post is acceptable , there is no need for personal fun or attacks from anyone especially to new members. One is free to ignore, believe or disbelieve his claims without changing the civil tone of sharing views in this thread. Being new, waterbear is now placed on temporary approval of all posts by Admin for insinuating that progressives may not be real Christians and are being hypocritical. Also it should be noted that it "takes two to tango" and others were instrumental in provoking his words.

 

This thread is Closed ... JosephM (as Moderator)

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