Anger Toward Fundamentalists

[PaulS]

I'm just sharing the following in the hope that input from others may help me understand myself a little.

 

I was raised a bible-believing, fundamentalist christian, who gave his life to the Lord at 11 or something, but whom by 18 had rejected 'God'. At first I was angry with this God I had grown up believing in as I thought He was unfair (in that he was going to send people to Hell for what I thought was no good reason really), but that later gave away to non-belief in that God concept (well to a degree, there's still a niggling part of me that sometimes says "but what if it is true?").

 

That said, I am now a 43yr old man but my issue is I still often feel anger towards fundy christians (family members included). It makes me angry when they can quote all the things wrong in the world but then say that they know God is still in charge. It makes me angry when they 'praise God' for a small prayer answered (say the granting of a christian-cafe licence or something) yet seem to overlook that a lot of people are praying for the 15,000-20,000 children who die EACH DAY from hunger and illness, yet God doesn't seem to answer that prayer (or he does it's just that his answer is to let things be!). I get angry when they seem so self-righteous and proud that 'they' know God and you as a poor sinner have no hope.

 

Now I can say I just let all these things go, but truth be told they s#*t me to tears and make me angry.

 

Is it just me or do other people associated here experience this, or have experienced this? Is there some psychological theory out there or something that ex-christians (of the fundy variety) suffer some ex-christian anger complex? It's not that I punch walls or hurt anybody of course, it's just that I feel angry and frustrated that 'these' people don't look into some facts for themselves and critically assess the bible and I guess, form a view more in line with what I understand Christians associated with progressive christianity seem to. Sometimes I wonder if it's some sort of validation thing - i.e. because my parents and sister believe I'm Hell-bound, do I get angry because they won't validate my beliefs?

 

Anyway, just throwing that out there to see if anybody does feel, or has felt, the same and what your thoughts are.

[JenellYB]

i understand exactly what you mean. I too still struggle with the same

 

Jenell

[JosephM]

Paul,

 

From my experience, what you describe is a most difficult time in ones journey. It can be short or it can be long depending on how you choose to look at it. Since i came form the same background and made many of the same errors that fundamentalists do. it left me no choice but to see the same ignorance in myself and to know by grace or for some other reason i may not yet understand and cannot take credit for, that somehow my eyes were opened to some things they (fundamentalists) cannot yet see or understand clearly. Knowing this gives us no room to think we are special or any better than another. It humbles one and when anger tries to surface at such matters, one can see it for what it is, the ego trying to assert itself as if it is separate and special for something it has done as if it has room to boast. Acknowledging this for me exposes it to the light for what it is and gradually anger loses its hold and is replaced with compassion for the other and no need for a defense.

 

Joseph

[JenellYB]

That's pretty much how I've tried to deal with it, Joseph. I'm a little different from what you describe, because even though raised in it, I never made the transition within that culture from little children's Sunday School Jesus to the 'grown-ip' sin and damnation and hell stage...I was never bought into it at all. It seemed so very wrong to me then, and even now, much of what as a child I felt wrong, is still what underlies my aversion to it now, the selfishness, the cruelty, disregard for others.

 

But two things for sure, first that if someone, anyone, you, me or "then", can't see something, then they can't see it. Its hard to really internalize and integrate that simply reality into one's beleifs and most of all,feelings. What I try to remember is that just as Jesus said, "Father, forgive them, forthey know not what they do," is how I must try to see it.

 

Second, absolutely our ego gets mixed up in it all. Ego has a childish side expressed in wanting to feel secure in knowing "how things are supposed to work", so it can effectively function in its role of mediator between Id and Superego in getting our needs met. Ego like nice, clear cut rules it can follow in doing so, and gets very upset when it seems someone has changed the rules, left it without a clear 'do this' and don't do that', and everything will be fine. It is Ego that insists there should be a clear 'the way its supposed to be' and throws a temper tantrum when its not.

 

For those of us from a fundamentalist background, upon realizing,seeing, truth beyond it, we feel betrayed, the trust we naturally had in our childhood elders feels betrayed. It can be very hard to heal the grief of that 'loss'.

 

Jenell

[Yvonne]

My experience was slightly different, though the outcome was similar.

 

I grew up in the Catholic church, and in a very German community. We didn't have Sunday school. The only time we talked about Jesus was in church and (sometimes) in religion class. No Catholic I know would consider his/herself in the same category was "fundamentalist", but they are. oh yessiree, they are!

 

My anger was short-lived, though. Anger very quickly slipped into a kind disbelief that anyone could think this way about God, the bible, etc. I don't think I'm "better than" fundamentalists, just vastly different. When I find myself wondering at how people can suspend their intellects to believe as they do, I remind myself of my mother. She believed things I cannot possibly even consider. Yet, she was, without a doubt, one of the most spiritual people I've ever known. She literally died praying.

[soma]

Fundamental Christians call me names, and say I am not a Christian even though I am a Christian. I am not angry because it only intensifies my mediation. I look at them as my immature brothers and sisters and sometimes as my teacher. When I am with them I feel like David in the lions den so I just be, I don't have to talk or change them, just let them be who they are. We are mirrors for each other and sometimes we think we have to reflect with words, but I feel reflecting with pure being is a greater reflection because like so well said above the ego is removed from the reflection. You are lucky to have family that persecutes you because it shows you are strong enough to handle it. God does not give us something we can't handle. That persecution is also a means of growth to learn and grow no matter what the situation. Someone enlightened you or lit your candle so light a candle with the pure light of being. If you do say something, I am sure you will feel the repercussions. Enjoy the task that has been sent you, not to change them, but to be yourself in pure being when with others who are trying to change you.

[PaulS]

Thankyou for those reponses.

 

I understand where you are coming from Joseph, and I do try to remind myself that I was once that bible-believing, righteous, fundamentalist, so I do try to cut them some slack. And often I can just let it go and remind myself that we're all on our own journey and this is theirs. I guess where the anger creeps is mostly with my own family where I can see how their religion has seperated me from them, yet their religion remains more important (even though they would never admit that). Perhaps it's more frustration than anger, where I wish they would broaden their thinking and take in some of the things I have learnt that turned me away from that fundy mindset. But I guess I can only say my two cents worth and leave it at that.

 

Jenell, I too remind myself of those words attributed to Jesus - "Father forgive them for they know not what they do" and tie it in with the "we're all on our own journey" I mention above. It's just that for me, the theory works better than the practice!

 

Soma, I would identify myself as a christian too really, although most christians I know wouldn't agree. I like your point about simply "reflecting with pure being". I'll try to remind myself of that.

 

Thanks all.

[JenellYB]

Paul, there is no doubt in my own self that what these differences and conflcts mean to my personal relationships, family, friends, community, is where most my anger originates. I try to put it here in context of how it has seemed to me, upon deeper reflection and meditation, determined to try to move myself out of "blamer mode", for which there is no remedy, because that places the power to remediate the conflict on others and outside forces, not my self.

 

I've also come to recognize, and still struggled to "real-ize" and "inegrate" the fact that while that conflct orgininates doesn't mean that's what "causes" it. The cause lies deeper, I think, within the eternal struggle we all must confront on some level, between our need to feel all powerful, which equates here in feeling safe, secure in our competency in getting our needs met.

 

At the root of it is my normal and very human "need" for personal relationship, connectedness, acceptance, a secure sense of belonging, of having a place, within naturally important social groups. It is to confront that what we might want or think is the way it should be isn't always what actually is (reality), and that's that. Call it Ego, call it evolved survival instincts, it is some part of chilish ego throwing a temper tantrum when it can't get its way.

 

Seeing this in myself in these terms helps me, at least as long as I can hold onto these thoughts, not succumb to the more primitive and childish emotional responses, my Ego's temper tantrums. It is hard to see or think straight when in the midst of a temper tantrum, lol! This may help you, if you can see it this way for yourself, or, provide some ideas for seeking your own deeper issues that may be involved.

 

Jenell

[Pete]

It is difficult I know and yes I also grew up in a fundamentalist family and it does cause conflicts both within me and with others sometimes. I am also told occasionally that I am not a Christian but very often they mean not a Christian like they are. Yet, it is upsetting to be called a non- Christian when you believe your life is being led as a Christain and it is important to you.

 

I hope you do not mind if I share some of my thoughts which have helped me free myself from my fundamentalist past:-

 

As I understand it Jesus is said to have taught in Matt 22:37-40, that we should love God and our neighbour and then points out that the prophets hang on these two things. In Luke 10:28, Jesus is said to say that if you do this you will live (which is very different from Paul). Jesus is also said to teach that the kingdom of God is within us and is to come. These are teachings of Jesus. The teachings as I understand fundamentalism comes from is that of Paul and other writers using his name. "Christian" as I understand the term is a follower of Christ or Jesus. Whether one wants to also follow Paul as well I believe is neither here or there despite what some fundamentalists like to teach.

 

One verse I love is from 1 John 4:8 which says "whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love". I therefore do not believe in hell and I believe all will be well in the end because eternal punishment is not of love.

 

Another view point I understand is from Paul in the first chapter of Galatians chapter 1. It says that Paul did not get his understanding from those who knew Jesus during his mission with the disciples.

Read:- ¹⁵ But when God, who set me apart from my mother’s womb and called me by his grace, was pleased ¹⁶ to reveal his Son in me so that I might preach him among the Gentiles, my immediate response was not to consult any human being. ¹⁷ I did not go up to Jerusalem to see those who were apostles before I was, but I went into Arabia. Later I returned to Damascus.

¹⁸ Then after three years, I went up to Jerusalem to get acquainted with Cephas and stayed with him fifteen days. ¹⁹ I saw none of the other apostles—only James, the Lord’s brother. ²⁰ I assure you before God that what I am writing you is no lie.

²¹ Then I went to Syria and Cilicia. ²²I was personally unknown to the churches of Judea that are in Christ.

 

In chapter 2 we have Paul's thoughts on Peter who appeared to want to continue living as a follower of Judaism (although in a liberal fashion) and Paul did not like this.

 

The point is despite some the profound things that Paul says, I think it is equally possible that he was a bit of a maverick too.

 

I believe you have every right to call yourself a Christian because you follow the teachings of Jesus and I feel Paul's teachings were very different. The only Gospel that appears to support Paul is that of parts of John which was written later than the synoptic Gospels but also later than Paul's influence.

 

I am not saying that Paul has nothing to say about Christianity but I believe there are reasons (IMO) not to let everything he is reported to say unquestioned. It is also fine (IMO) to question the bible because it is the teachings of Jesus that one's faith is based upon and not whether everything written in the bible is of God.

 

I do not saying that fundamentalists are not Christians too, but I believe you have as much right to call yourself a Christian as they have.

[soma]

Pete thank you for sharing the spirit with us. It seems we have all spiraled to the same point that continues to spiral in love and the realization that God is always with us because we are inside Our Father. In our sincerity it seems we realize there is nothing to become or go, but just to remove the barriers that separate us. I pay salutations to the force with in you that propels you on this great journey.

[JenellYB]

I, too, have always felt more a follower of Jesus, as my Master teacher, than of "Paulianity".

 

Part of my coming to my own understanding of what I think/feel is involved in my own self-analysis of what's going on in me in regards to the anger I still struggle with toward fundamentalists is my observation that even beyond my self, this deep, gut-level anger seems almost entirely characteristic of those of us that WERE raised within or involved at some point involved in fundamentalist community.

 

Those not so certainly may express total amazment at the nonsense of it, and frustration with what they see "wrong" with it, but this deep gut-level, often gut-renching, and persisitent anger and hurt seems to be characterisitc pirmariy (or even only?) those of us with a personal connection to it. For us, I think, it is something of a sense of a personal betrayal of trust, and by others we care about.

 

Jenell

[PaulS]

Thanks Pete. I have read a bit concerning 'Pauline' Christianity and I am a little familiar with what you say. It certainly does seem that in many ways Paul's message significantly differs from Jesus' and it does seem to have that feel of dogma and rules vs unabandonded love, which I think was Jesus' message.

 

Jenell, I do sometimes wonder if my feelings in this are a result of feeling betrayed. Partly 'betrayal' by my parents in that they told me this was the truth and the only way, and when it no longer fits for me as that, I felt/feel betrayed. Also betrayed by my church friends, who soon distanced themselves as my friends once I fell away from those shared beliefs. Not in any nasty way, rather they just kept their distance as I wasn't really one of the flock anymore. One thing that really hurt was that my denomination had a large basketball competition which I grew up living and breathing, (playing/coaching/umpiring). But alas, the rules were that to play you had to be a regular church goer. So whilst my absence was tolerated a little bit, it was only for a little bit and soon I was told I could no longer play in the comp that I had been intimately involved with for 10 years (from 10 until 20).

 

I think writing a bit about some of these things helps me to get it out a little bit and think about how it did impact me, rather than keeping it buried under a thick skin.

 

I appreciate everyone's tolerance and input.

 

Paul

[Pete]

Hi Paul, my parents are and always have been fundamental in their approach to the faith. I put this down to the times in which they grew up. There was not the media we have in order to find out things. I feel that they were often unaware that there are voices that hold differing points of view to the churches they attended. Things have changed since they grew up. Here we are talking and I am in the UK and many of you are in the US. My parents never had that type of the sense of community in an international sense. To question anything was to put one in isolation. Today that is not the case.

I look at the vast crowds Billy Graham had, the TV coverage he had in the 50s, 60s, and early 70s and his influence. I doubt he would find such a smooth unquestioned response today. He and my parents were a product of differing times (IMO) and to move out of that understanding is not easy. I was pushed out of the church they went to and others had similar experiences that allowed them to question what they were being told. Most in our parents time did not have that experence and to accept God was seen to also accept the church. We know different now because we live in a differing period.

[JenellYB]

I don't think there can be any doubt that the opening up of communications and dissemination of information and ideas via modern technology, beginning with radio and television, continuing right on into our internet age, and even such things as cell phones that faciliate so much more interpersonal contact outside past geographical boundaries--for most of my own life, communicating with other people beyond the limitation of my and their close physical proxmity was limted to "snail mail" and expensive "long distance" phone calls, that were much to costly for most people to make frequent use of,

 

Yet, those of us "plugged into" these newer global technologies that facilitate communication AND are of a nature bent toward exploring outside the comfortable box of our personnal circumstances of birth and life, tend to overlook that these two qualities are not universal throughout our society, and certainly not the world as a whole. Many of those that have ventured onto the internet are still limited in utilizing it for employment purposes or casual social networking, which often only facilitates increased interaction within the same familiar personal circles as they had before, with little interest in expanding beyond that.

 

I am 63, and am often brought up short by how many people, my age or older especially, that have not become "residents of the internet community." Many are not even computer literate. In my experience, many that are most marginally computer literate are clueless about how limited their computer literacy actually is.

 

Beyond technical capacity, there is simple interest, or not, in expanding one's horizens. Within my own personal sphere of contacts, family or community, I often have difficulty with interpersonal relationships because of the vast gap that exists between myself and many of those others, that has proven as much a problem in my activity on social networking sites as it has always been in face-to-face interactions. I don't deal well with triviality, superficiality, and pettiness.

 

When I ventured back into the "churched" community within my community of residence a few years ago, I was soon discouraged in finding any sense social connection there any more than within the community at large, outside the church. At the time really on fire with renewed interest in study of the biible and religious/faith concepts, I had thought to find others so like-minded there, and it was utter dissapointment even in that.

 

I've often wondered if pastors are really clueless about the people in their congregations really think, talk, and live when outside the church doors. I don't mean that in the sense of the oft-noted hypocrisy such as going out to get drunk at a dive on saturday nights, but rather just what occupies their ordinary thought, activtives, and conversations of their daily lives.

 

One particular incident left me feeling particularly confused and discouraged, and most represents what I man here. Having attended a local Baptist church regularly for several years, I realized I had not really made any new friends, or even aquaintances beyond the most casual level, over those I had already known through other interactions in the community before I began attending there. I expressed that uncomfortable observation, and my personal dissapointment about it, the the pastor. I observed that I just didn't seem to find much in common to talk about with anyone there.

 

He responded, I felt rather huffily, that with all the good people in that church, any Christian coming into that church (yeah, catch that dig) could surely soon find others in the church they had common interests with, as basis for forming friendships, since all had "Christ in common." He acted as if that had pretty much settled the matter, and walked away, leaving me feeling quite confused. He never gave an opening for me to explain that what I meant by that was that I neither found anything of interest, nor had anything of interest to them too contribute, in their casual daily conversations that revolved around what was going on in the lives of characters of tv soaps, favorite prime time tv sitcoms, sports teams, and the latest gossip about popular celebrities and their neighbors. The extent of their religious talk often seemed to be limited to reciprocal requests to pray for each other.

 

I was left to wonder, did that pastor, and other pastors, really think their congregants sit around all week talking about the content of his sermon and what they learned in Sunday School that week, or about how to apply Christ principles to their daily lives? They not only don't, but often don't like it if others do!

 

I have pretty much the same problem now in my participation on social networking sites like FaceBook...except now, its more likely to be what's going on in the tv "reality" shows rather than soaps and sitcoms. Triviality, superficiality, pettiness. Those seem to be traits, or behaviors, or whatever you would call them, not much affected by the limitations or expanded opportunities for interpersonal communications and interactions.

 

For those of us ready to expand our horizons, as a few always have been, these new technologies are creating a while new greater realm of new connection and interaction, within which we are contructing a global network of inter-connectedness, influencing each other, and those around us. But not everyone has, or ever will be, interested in that.

 

I guess what all this ramble is toward is that rather than remaining attached to something we've grown beyond, we would be better to redirect our attention to the new opportunities to find community, that sense of a place of belonging, that better serve where we are in our journey.

Jenell

[Daniel Lezcano]

I'm just sharing the following in the hope that input from others may help me understand myself a little.

 

I was raised a bible-believing, fundamentalist christian, who gave his life to the Lord at 11 or something, but whom by 18 had rejected 'God'. At first I was angry with this God I had grown up believing in as I thought He was unfair (in that he was going to send people to Hell for what I thought was no good reason really), but that later gave away to non-belief in that God concept (well to a degree, there's still a niggling part of me that sometimes says "but what if it is true?").

 

That said, I am now a 43yr old man but my issue is I still often feel anger towards fundy christians (family members included). It makes me angry when they can quote all the things wrong in the world but then say that they know God is still in charge. It makes me angry when they 'praise God' for a small prayer answered (say the granting of a christian-cafe licence or something) yet seem to overlook that a lot of people are praying for the 15,000-20,000 children who die EACH DAY from hunger and illness, yet God doesn't seem to answer that prayer (or he does it's just that his answer is to let things be!). I get angry when they seem so self-righteous and proud that 'they' know God and you as a poor sinner have no hope.

 

Now I can say I just let all these things go, but truth be told they s#*t me to tears and make me angry.

 

Is it just me or do other people associated here experience this, or have experienced this? Is there some psychological theory out there or something that ex-christians (of the fundy variety) suffer some ex-christian anger complex? It's not that I punch walls or hurt anybody of course, it's just that I feel angry and frustrated that 'these' people don't look into some facts for themselves and critically assess the bible and I guess, form a view more in line with what I understand Christians associated with progressive christianity seem to. Sometimes I wonder if it's some sort of validation thing - i.e. because my parents and sister believe I'm Hell-bound, do I get angry because they won't validate my beliefs?

 

Anyway, just throwing that out there to see if anybody does feel, or has felt, the same and what your thoughts are.

 

Yes yes yes to this post sir! You are not alone there. There are many such notions by the funda's that absolutely blow my mind. The notion of a santa clause God as Spong put it has always been the most ridiculous thing I had ever herd of for the reasons you state. There are many other things I can site; but you know what, when I reach way way down into my heart what I find is that I am jealous of them and therefor angry at them. It sounds ridiculous doesnt it but I say to you seek and see if there isn't at least some of that behind the mask of righteousness that is your observation of fundamentalists. Before I go forward I am also speaking to my self hear, please please please dont perceive me to be giving you a hard time.

 

When I say jelous what I mean is that really, in the suffering I have come to know in my life when I see someone that believes in such absurd notions I am sort of envious of them even if I know they are insane...lol.

Because I know that they do have a certain security in there life's that I long for. Its almost as though I would have in the past chosen to be one of them if it where something that my brain would accept.....but I simply could not do so any more than I can walk on water. It simply is not in the cards for me. Also its the ignorance is Bliss saying right? So where am I left? In the past it seemed like I was left out in the cold....but have begun to find this concept of Christianity giving me hope.

[Nick the Nevermet]

One of the things that always strikes me when I read this forum is just how few truly traumatic and horrible interactions I've had with rigid, conservative Christians (aka fundamentalists, bible-thumpers, etc.). About the worst experiences I've had were being told I wasn't a real Christian once, being told repeatedly when I was a kid that Dungeons & Dragons was satanic, and a nextdoor neighbor complaining my research design for a project didn't allow for the Holy Ghost to have causal influence (sociologists generally fail to operationalize the third person of the Trinity...).

 

But my point is I have none of the personal experiences that seem central to many people here. I guess this means I'm lucky, as who wants to experience stuff like that?

 

I mention it again, because this thread reminds me again I have different (but certainly not better) axes to grind. If anything, I'm coming to progressive Christianity from the other side: overly rational intellectualism breaking from the postmodern turn, bringing concerns about religion back into the foreground of my mind and my identity.

 

EDIT: I should mention that this is definitely educational for me, and since posting here, I've refined my opinions about New Atheism, and toned down some of my less than fair comments regarding that topic.

[JenellYB]

Nick, I think most that have experienced real hurt in this are those involved from a very young age, especially from childhood. Children are so vulnerable, they believe what they are told, wholeheatedly, then the 'mean parts' hit and they are cut deeply. I don't think someone that doesn't encounter that environment until into mature adulthood is that vulnerable, they are able to see the nonsense and disconnect with the real world and never get that bought into the beliefs to begin with. I'll be honest, what I'll never get over about it simply the sense of betrayal, of trusting that I was part of a special people among people that loved and cared about me, and having that turn so viscious so fast and easy, and seeing it happen to others too. Had I not encounted it until I was an adult, I'd not been so vulnerable.

 

Jenell

[Nick the Nevermet]

As I said, I consider myself lucky.

[JenellYB]

Daniel, I do not see what you say you see in them, behind the self rightous masks, any as you put it "a certain security in life"....Quite oppositve. I see a false bravado and bluster trying to cover very deep insecurity and fear.

Jenell

[PaulS]

There is a degree of jealousy there for sure, Daniel. In some ways I do look at some fundamentalists that I know and on the outside they do seem content, satisfied, and seem to feel at peace with their God. I regard them as ignorant to some degree concerning a better understanding of the bible and historical christianity, but as you say, that ignorance does seem like bliss some times! Sometimes a part of me does wish that i could be so easily accepting of such beliefs, that I could be a part of a community that does support one another in these beliefs to a large degree, and that I could simply place my trust into that same belief system. But for me, that would be the easy, lack-of-integrity, way-out, that in the end wouldn't hold fast anyhow.

 

That said, Jenell also puts words to my thoughts that these same people are often actually 'acting' this way to block out or cover up their insecurity and fears. I often find the classic line of defence offered by some Christians when debating errors/ommissions/misunderstandings/contradictions concerning the bible, is that because they 'know' and 'feel' the good bits of the bible (God's love etc) that they are happy to accept 'on faith' the bits of the bible that don't seem to fit, such as genocidal atrocities, homophobia, sexism, etc. To me, this is a head-in-the-sand approach and thankfully could not possibly work for me. I say thankfully because I know I am being true to myself, however that doesn't stop me from feeling angry and jealous sometimes. I'm hoping that experiences like this forum, more reading, and just generally getting older, will help me deal with these issues in my life.

[GeorgeW]

I would argue for more tolerance of fundamentalism. I think that some people have a psychological need for certitude. A fuzzy, ambiguous belief system is not, IMO, suited for everyone.

 

Some people have a need for a clear set of rules: Follow these rules and achieve everlasting life.

 

Some people have a need for authoritative sources. The bumper sticker says it all: "The Bible says it, I believe it. That settles it." We can describe this as intellectually ignorant, but it also can be psychologically satisfying.

 

However, I would not argue for tolerance of intolerance (as someone said "even relativity is relative") or behavior that is harmful to others whether on the part of a fundamentalist or anyone else.

 

George

[Daniel Lezcano]

Daniel, I do not see what you say you see in them, behind the self rightous masks, any as you put it "a certain security in life"....Quite oppositve. I see a false bravado and bluster trying to cover very deep insecurity and fear.

Jenell

 

I agree that is often the case. Spong in one of his lectures reals of a string of stats concerning the bible belt. Highest instances in pornography, child abuse, adultery and divorce in the country. But we must be careful my friends to not jump in the same boat with those who hurt us. "Dam those fundamentalists!!" Is a slippery slope attitude "that I can really relate with..lol" that can lead us to the same "us against them attitude" that has reppeled us in the first place.

 

What I really meant was that it seems the fundamental reason why any religion can perhaps result in the individuals experiencing of peace; is that they truly believe in it. That is the security I speak of and am sometimes jealous of. Not all fundamentalist are "evil" lol. Some do bear good fruit, those are the ones that experience the pure sense of peace as a result of absolute conformity and therefor belief in there version of reality.

[glintofpewter]

I agree that is often the case. Spong in one of his lectures reals of a string of stats concerning the bible belt. Highest instances in pornography, child abuse, adultery and divorce in the country.

 

In a conversation with Michael Dowd last December Spong remarked how receptive the south was to his ideas.

[GeorgeW]

Spong in one of his lectures reals of a string of stats concerning the bible belt. Highest instances in pornography, child abuse, adultery and divorce in the country.

Daniel,

 

I wonder where he got his data. A quick search of the web does not reflect this unless Utah ( the leader in pornography) is considered Bible Belt. http://www.deseretne...eport-says.html

 

As for fatalities from child abuse, Ohio (Bible Belt?) had a rate of 3.27 per 100,000 compared with Alabama 2.05. Nevada had 3.18 compared with 1.79 in South Carolina. http://www.npr.org/t...oryId=123891714

 

It does look like the Southern states have high rates of divorce. However, Arkansas, the leader among men (13.5 per 1000), is not that far ahead of Maine (13.0). http://www.census.go...les/12s0132.pdf

 

I have my doubts about reliable data on adultery by state or region as this is not something that many people would admit to (particularly Bible Belters). And, I have serious doubts if there is a correlation between conservative, generally rural people and high rates of adultery.

 

And, of course the most pertinent question would be, 'Is there is some causal relationship?' Given other possible factors like poverty rates, conservative worldviews, history, etc., one might rightly ask if religion is a side effect rather than a cause.

 

George

[Daniel Lezcano]

Daniel,

 

I wonder where he got his data. A quick search of the web does not reflect this unless Utah ( the leader in pornography) is considered Bible Belt. http://www.deseretne...eport-says.html

 

As for fatalities from child abuse, Ohio (Bible Belt?) had a rate of 3.27 per 100,000 compared with Alabama 2.05. Nevada had 3.18 compared with 1.79 in South Carolina. http://www.npr.org/t...oryId=123891714

 

It does look like the Southern states have high rates of divorce. However, Arkansas, the leader among men (13.5 per 1000), is not that far ahead of Maine (13.0). http://www.census.go...les/12s0132.pdf

 

I have my doubts about reliable data on adultery by state or region as this is not something that many people would admit to (particularly Bible Belters). And, I have serious doubts if there is a correlation between conservative, generally rural people and high rates of adultery.

 

And, of course the most pertinent question would be, 'Is there is some causal relationship?' Given other possible factors like poverty rates, conservative worldviews, history, etc., one might rightly ask if religion is a side effect rather than a cause.

 

George

 

Yeah who knows for sure, I was just sayin in response to another post that the fundamentalist certainly have there problems just like everyone else. It's just that no one likes someone with a very very high conviction about there beliefs yet has trouble walking the walk. Its the very trite example of hypocritical thingy. Thats why the are among the least liked of all religion sect's...lol.

 

But most importantly, I dont mean to bash there views lest I become a contribute to the problem of this us against them attitude. Lest I jump in the same boat so to speak as those I would disagree with.

The interesting thing is that I am very open minded until I am faced with someone that is close minded lol....rendering me no different than them. I wish to be better then that but is an issue to work on.....