God Is Still Speaking?

[minsocal]

Myron,

 

I have read that an enormous portion of our brain is dedicated to sight. However, without sight, this area can be exploited by other functions and these become highly enhanced. One example is the ability of some blind people to develop a form of radar in which they send out sounds and can determine shapes and distances of objects by the returning sound.

 

George

 

George,

 

Having lived with an artist for a long period of time, I am somewhat familiar with the process of painting and drawing. Many paint from reconstructed memory. Note that they use their hands to translate a memory image to canvass using layers of lines to create contours, etc. In the case of the blind artist, he would invert the process, using his hands (as in the example) to capture the lines and countours of a face and create a mental image which he would then transfer to canvass. I have administered the Wechsler Test of Intelligence with a talented artist, and the memory manipulation results were almost off scale. This particular subject could repeat long strings of numbers in reverse order and when we discussed this he told me that this was how he was able to draw, by reversing input and output.

 

Myron

[Realspiritik]

Jen,

 

Are you able to share the answers you got to the theodicy question? If so, it might be worth starting a new thread to address this issue. This seems to be a common issue with those who began in traditional religion and have moved on.

 

George

 

 

Hello, George,

 

Thanks for your query. I'll start a new thread, as you suggest.

 

Myron, the art-and-brain thing is pretty fascinating. I come from a family of artists and teachers. My mom, at age 80, is a watercolourist of some note here in Canada. My sister is an artist and high school teacher. My son is a portrait artist and primary/junior art teacher. When I first went to university maaaaaany years ago, I was enrolled in a B.F.A. course (though in second year I switched into Chemistry and Art History).

 

My dad is the odd man out. He's a chemical engineer turned high school Chemistry teacher (retired).

 

My whole life my sister and I have had listen to our parents hashing out their arguments about "how things should look" versus "how things should work." Amazingly, they've almost always found the middle ground between these two very different positions.

 

I've often wondered if this lifetime example from my parents is one of the reasons I've been able to find the common ground between science and faith.

 

Love Jen

 

P.S. My parents have been married now for 54 years, even though there have been times when they've really had to work hard to reach respectful compromises. I don't think they knew what they were teaching me on those difficult days, but somewhere in there were some pretty useful nuggets.

[Neon Genesis]

I have heard many answers from theistic believers who say they can resolve the theodicy question ranging from the cliched free will defense to "God caused 9/11 to happen to punish America for the gays" arguments and so far I've found none of them convincing. The only ones I've found close to resolving it are either that the god who created the universe is an evil false god like in Gnosticism, God is imperfect or lacks one of the omni^3 characteristics typically attributed to him by Christians, or that god is an impersonal deity who doesn't intervene with the universe at all which is the one I found most logical out of those three but I would be interested in hearing what answers you would give to the theodicy question.

[JenellYB]

Hello,Jen, nice to meet you. Odd to call you Jen, for I've had a few people in my life call me that, though I do not prefer it.

 

I am as wary of those that claim to be mouthpieces of God, telling people what to do and how to be....as noted, usually very legalitistic and moralidtic, and with a tone and suggestion that if anybody doesn't listen to them, take them seriously, disobeys or challenged their authority, it is God himself they are challenging, and God's going to get them for it.

 

I think was Jen is talking about, from the little of her posting I've read, is a personal level communication with Jesus, or God, or some agent of God, that provides her personally insights and understandings. I have posted here in those forums pretty much that same claim, and also that it has never been for me at least, a matter of God using me as a mouth piece to speak to others.

 

I too consider myself a mystic. I too have experienced what seem extraordinacry capacties and gifts, such as my remarkable empathy, even telepathy with people I have close connection to...and occasionally, even foreknowing of an event, or present awareness of an event taking place elsewhere, out of the range of my natural physical senses. A few other odd experiences.

But I've never held that I God used me to speak forth His instructions or commands. And I've never thought of it as "channeling",but rather, just personal communications and conversations. May well just be me talking to my Self, but we get along well and I learn from it, so I've accepted it into my life.

 

So I think there is a confusion here, that what Jen and perhaps I am talking about is entirely a different matter than the manipulative public pronouncements by some claiming authority of God.

 

Jenell

Jenell

[Realspiritik]

Hi Jenell,

 

Thanks for your thoughts. It's a bit of a relief to hear from someone who doesn't see a conflict between science (i.e. psychology and psychiatry) and faith and mysticism.

 

I view what I do as being towards the outer edges of a continuum of experience that exists for all human beings. In other words, what I call "channelling" is not a distinct way of communicating with God, but a instead a somewhat more "exaggerated" version of the intuitive circuitry that I believe everyone is born with.

 

It's like how most people can carry a tune, but some people can really carry a tune, and it's so important to them to develop that ability that they choose to spend more time on singing and less time on other activities or talents.

 

Also, just as no two experienced musicians are alike, no two practising endogenous mystics are alike. Each mystic has his or her own unique way of connecting with God and expressing those experiences.

 

On this site, Soma and I express ourselves about as differently as it's possible for two people to express themselves. He's much more a poet than I. I'm pretty much a cut-to-the-chase person. Both paths are equally valid.

 

You said, "I am as wary of those that claim to be mouthpieces of God, telling people what to do and how to be....as noted, usually very legalitistic and moralistic, and with a tone and suggestion that if anybody doesn't listen to them, take them seriously, disobeys or challenged their authority, it is God himself they are challenging, and God's going to get them for it."

 

I'm very wary, too. These are the individuals who are suffering from DSM-IV-TR Axis I and Axis II issues. Right off the bat, when I hear this kind of legalistic I'm-right-and-you're-wrong preaching, I think "Oh, there's someone with anterior cingulate cortex problems. Probably low on oxytocin and vasopressin receptors. Serotonin's trying to pick up the slack. Dopamine is seriously out of whack because of status addiction. Start this person on a course of humour therapy. Please!"

 

I didn't use to think this way about these issues. But this is how Jesus has taught me to approach the issue of apocalyptic prophecy -- i.e. don't treat it as a religious experience. Treat it instead as what it actually is -- a biological brain that isn't working the way God intended.

 

Reading the Bible is a whole different experience when you're willing to be honest about the impact of major mental illness on what a person says, does, and believes.

 

All those suffering from major mental illness should receive prompt, thorough, non-judgmental, compassionate team care. Often they receive this care (though not as often as we, as a society, are capable of). I'm none too happy, though, when their writings are accepted as "revelations from God." This is when religious folk can cause great suffering.

 

We need to be honest about this reality.

 

We also need to extend this honesty to past writers within the Christian tradition. It's not helpful to us to pretend that all past teachers within the orthodox Christian tradition have been whole and well in terms of their brain health. Some of them clearly have not been. This doesn't mean they're unworthy of our love and respect and forgiveness. It simply means we have to take their words with a grain of salt, and listen to our own common sense (i.e. intuition) in deciding how we can be in full relationship with God.

 

A big part of common sense is the willingness to make one's own observations and one's own decisions even when the hot winds of prophecy are blowing hard in your face.

 

Gosh, I think I just called these prophet-types a bag of hot wind.

 

Oh well, if the shoe fits . . .

 

Love Jen

[JenellYB]

A difference...I didn't choose ormakr any conscious effort to learn about or pursue the mystical path...knew nothing of anything even remotely related. I was just going about my own ordinary business about 15 yrs ago, and out of the blue something akin to a psychological freight train smacked me down and ran over me. And every time I got up and tried to dust myself off and steady my feet again, here it would come smack me down again, with me protesting NONONO! NO WAY!

This went on a while, until I finally said Okay okay already!!! You've got my attention, Now what? Which seemed to please the freight train very much.

 

Jenell

[JenellYB]

...at least,it stopped smacking me down and running over me, anyway.....

 

Jenell

[JenellYB]

.....Jen, however, I must respectfully disagree with your assumed psychiatric diagnosis...sorry. First, Axis l and Axis ll are very broad categories that are HUGE, encompassing virtually ALL disorders, disturbances and mental and brain diseases, leaving out only a very small handful categorized under Axis lll, generalized medical condtions,

Second, diagnosis of any disorder within them is quite complex and often difficult and time consuming,

 

Jenell

[Realspiritik]

.....Jen, however, I must respectfully disagree with your assumed psychiatric diagnosis...sorry. First, Axis l and Axis ll are very broad categories that are HUGE, encompassing virtually ALL disorders, disturbances and mental and brain diseases, leaving out only a very small handful categorized under Axis lll, generalized medical condtions,

Second, diagnosis of any disorder within them is quite complex and often difficult and time consuming,

 

Jenell

 

These are broad categories, but they're relevant to the discussion of spirituality, faith, and religion. There's now a solid body of research evidence that links specific patterns of brain dysfunction to specific patterns of behaviour. One has to be wary of getting too specific and too focussed on tiny little bits of the brain, since the brain's neuroplastic capacity can -- and often does -- compensate for losses in some areas. This is why I didn't include a diagnosis in my statement above. I made some observations about likely test findings in brain physiology and neurotransmitter levels, which is not the same thing as making a diagnosis. This is no different than looking at someone who wears corrective lenses and inferring that their eyesight isn't 20/20. It's a verifiable scientific observation, nothing more.

 

The anterior cingulate has been linked to a number of troublesome disorders (not to just one disorder) and low levels of oxytocin have also been shown to have links to long term disorders of mood and thought, including autism spectrum disorders.

 

For some strange reason psychopathy isn't included in any of the DSM-IV Axes. Dr. Robert Hare has done some excellent research on psychopathy. There was also an interesting article about brain imaging and treatment plans for psychopaths by Kent A. Kiehl and Joshua W. Buckholz in last fall's issue of Scientific American Mind (Sept/Oct 2010).

 

I agree with your assessment that psychiatric diagnosis is complex and difficult and time consuming. Treatment is even more complex and difficult and time consuming, but is worth every dime and every second and every bit of advanced health-care training.

 

I lament the shortage of funding for research and treatment. So much money is spent trying to fix issues after they've become entrenched, when it would cost much less over the long term -- and provide a much better result -- if we were to divert research and treatment funding to early intervention of major mental health issues.

 

Have a great day.

 

Love Jen

[Realspiritik]

This morning I woke up with a vivid dream in my head -- the kind that's so visually precise and so emotionally clear that I knew my angels were initiating a conversation with me.

 

It didn't take long for me to understand what the topic was. In the dream state (which, in my view, and in the opinion of a small number of neuroscientists, is an expression of consciousness that's experienced through a non-beta-wave, non-gamma-wave brainwave pattern) I was travelling with a tour group in Germany, and suddenly the early morning mists parted to reveal scenic hills dotted with old castles. I was upset in the dream because my camera -- a big, honkin', old fashioned 35 mm SLR -- was packed in my suitcase where I couldn't reach it. So I was out of luck as far as taking pictures was concerned. (Poor planning on my part, it seemed.) The bus stopped at a medieval chapel, a place that was very popular with tourists because everyone was jostling to get an auditorium seat inside. The architecture was unlike anything I've seen in real life. The chapel's floor plan was hexagonal. The walls rose extremely high -- maybe a hundred feet or more. Painted up the sides of the walls were trompe l'oeil trees. The tips of the trees reached to the painted sky of the ceiling. I looked around restlessly for my friend, who'd become separated from the rest of the group. Ah, there she was! My high school buddy, Janice.

 

My high school friend was a shy, quiet, conservative, Roman Catholic gal. Very intelligent, very capable, but not good at expressing her thoughts or feelings. You could hardly pry two sentences in a row out of her.

 

"Oh," I said to my angel friends this morning as insight struck. "We're talking about the apophatic path, aren't we?"

 

The apophatic path of spiritual journeying is a path of "unspeaking" or "unsaying God" in which (as Bernard McGinn says, page 281, The Essential Writings of Christian Mysticism) "all statements must be unsaid in deference to God's hidden reality."

 

Plato spoke of the apophatic path in Phaedrus. Others in the Christian tradition have embraced this path -- Pseudo-Dionysius. Gregory of Nyssa. Meister Eckhart. The Cloud of Unknowing. John of the Cross. Thomas Merton.

 

These writers, and others, have tried to find knowing and union with God -- unio mystica -- through intentional "unknowing."

 

This path isn't restricted to Christianity. Teachers of the apophatic journey are found in all major world religions. Teachers and advocates of the apophatic journey form the core group of contributors on the TCPC site. There's a yearning here to find God through the petals of the flower that have closed for the day and now wait in the calm, cool, quiet of the night to breathe a final deep breath of knowing before falling into silence.

 

I'm not an apophatic mystic, and I'm disturbing the calm waters you're trying to create here, so I think it's best if I bow out.

 

Good luck to you all on your journeys.

 

God bless.

 

Jen

[GeorgeW]

I'm not an apophatic mystic, and I'm disturbing the calm waters you're trying to create here, so I think it's best if I bow out.

Jen,

 

I don't think you are disturbing any waters here. But, in any event, I wish you the best and please feel free to return or visit anytime.

 

George

[JosephM]

Hi Jen,

 

The waters are far from calm here. Water is naturally disturbed as it travels on its path to the oceans by obstacles on the way. We are okay with that. Nothing inappropriate has been said nor has our etiquette been violated in any way in this thread. We are looking more for balance than agreement. Calm waters are refreshing but no progress is made toward the destination without flow and inevitable disturbances. Disturbances will happen and it seems to me growth comes out of them. Please do not leave for such a reason.

 

JosephM(as member and moderator)

[JenellYB]

I'm not previously familiar with the term you use, but thank you for it..I do understand the concept, and can identify with the experience, I didn't know that term for it.

 

I haven't felt any disturbance at your presence...do bear in mind we all learn from the sharing of different ideas, even sometimes conlficting ideas. For that, I think it is important we all feel free to express different ideas and perspectives, but also be open to others in return,

 

 

Jenell

[minsocal]

No, Jen ...

 

Please do not leave, you are the voice from the edge of chaos and without it, nothing survives.

 

Myron

[JenellYB]

Troubled waters are not to be avoided, but embraced, for they often preceed healing...

 

 

John 5:2 Now there is at Jerusalem by the sheep market a POOL, which is called in the Hebrew tongue Bethesda, having five porches.

3 In these lay a great multitude of impotent folk, of blind, halt, withered, waiting for the moving of the water.

4 For an angel went down at a certain season into the POOL, and troubled the water: whosoever then first after the troubling of the water stepped in was made whole of whatsoever disease he had.

 

Jenell

[Robertus]

So I wondered, whether or not you consider God to be an external being or an internal influence or presense (or something different), in what ways does God continue to speak to you today?

 

God is intrinsic throughout nature. I would cite the work of philosopher Gaylen Strawson and his work on "real physicalism" for a better explanation of my thoughts on Universal Consciousness.

 

Through the scriptures? Through prayer? Through the church? Through friends and family? Through media? Through conscience? Through creation? Through the "still, small voice"? Through events? Through dreams? Through the entirety of your life?

 

 

 

All of the above! God is constantly speaking to me through my experience, through my prayer, through meditation and just being still.

 

If you feel in some sense addressed by God, how does God most often and most clearly speak to you?

 

Lately God seems to address me directly through science. It's as if God is saying "here! Look at my deepest being, how my creation works, how I work."

 

And, if you'd like to share further, how do you know that it is God?

 

Because the internal transformation that has occurred within me through grace continues to reveal the infinite reality of God's existence within and through nature.

[Mike]

Thanks for the thoughts Robertus. And good to see another reader of Strawson on panpsychism.

 

Peace,

Mike