Guest billmc Posted August 4, 2011 Share Posted August 4, 2011 My mother died recently, and two things give me tremendous comfort. The first is that my mother lives on in her children & grandchildren through our stories of her and the love we had for her, and in the children and grandchildren of the people she ministered to in hospice. The second, an idea I've borrowed from Praying A New Story by Michael Morwood, is that my mother has returned to the Source and Sustainer of all. I'm sorry for your recent felt loss, Yvonne, even though I don't believe anything was really lost. I like the way you put it about your mother returning to the Source. I have great difficulty putting into words what I think and feel about the "afterlife", mainly because I am agnostic about it and simply haven't been there yet. But your words called to my mind the image of a river flowing downhill through rolling countryside to finally go into the sea. Once the river empties into the sea, where does it go? It has merged with its Source. It may no longer be a river, yet nothing is lost. To me, that image is a beautiful one that, yes, offers us comfort and hope. And, contributing a bit more to this thread, IMO Jesus didn't have the final word on the afterlife. When Jesus did talk about it (which was seldom), he spoke about it from within the framework of first century Judaism, not from within the framework of modern cosmology and ontology. The Jews of Jesus' day weren't concerned with going to heaven, they were concerned with living in resurrected bodies on earth. This was the apostle Paul's focus also. Nevertheless, we know so much more about the cosmos and consciousness now than they did then. So I think discussions about the afterlife are very much open, without the necessity to say that Jesus had the final word on the subject. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest billmc Posted August 4, 2011 Share Posted August 4, 2011 If at the moment you take your last breath you find yourself facing the god of the Old Testament and Jesus, and you had to choose between one or the other, who would you choose, Jesus or the OT god? James, I hope you don't mind me sharing a bit more on this important subject. Like you, part of me is appalled at the way God is portrayed in the OT (and often at the way Jesus is portrayed in some parts of the NT). God supposedly sending the flood, commanding Israel to kill her enemies, demanding devotion by mutilating sexual organs, demanding animal and human sacrifice, killing the firstborn of Egypt -- all of these alledged "acts of God" or "words of the Lord" can nauseate me if I take them as literal history or as true theology. None of these things line up with my experiences with God. So I ultimately needed to choose whether to believe in the inerrancy and infallibility of the scriptures...or to go with what my heart and experiences were telling me about God. I chose my experiences and the best images of God found in the scriptures and in human history. And though I think Jesus tried to reform Jewish notions concerning God and God's kingdom, I don't believe even he could give us a 100% reliable image of what we call God. He did great for his time and I admire him greatly for his efforts, truly I do. And I think most of his teachings are spot on because of his experiences with the Father. But I also think that we have had other people throughout the years that have also given us powerful and meaningful images of God, both inside of Christianity and outside of it. This being said (and because it is only my opinion), the "God of the Bible" that many people attack (like the New Atheists do) is just an image. It is, no doubt, a prevelant image in Christianity, but it is still merely an image. And, for me, God is always More (and, hopefully, better) than our human images of God. In my own life, God turned out to be even more amazing and gracious than the song "Amazing Grace" ever suggested to me. I discovered that I wasn't a wretch, that I was and still am his unique creation (as are you). We live in a wonderful time when all these images of God are being reconsidered, not just from Christianity, but from many religions. New images are arising. Some of them are, to me, awesome and transforming. Nevertheless, they are still images. And if we don't manage to destroy one another, people a thousand years from now my ponder the best images of God that we currently hold to and shake their heads that we were so small-minded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marsha Posted August 6, 2011 Share Posted August 6, 2011 I really enjoyed reading this thread. I can't tell you how relieved I was, to first hear someone say, that the god of the O.T. was (in part) in the minds of the people of that culture, and not to be taken literally. Not sure where I first read that, but I think it was in one of Dr. Spong's books. It was such a burden trying to merge the O.T. god with the love and forgiveness of Jesus, in the New Testament. I am still learning so much and just loving it, because it finally, almost kind of makes sense! Interesting about CARM. I didn't know there was anyone here, who posted there. I started posting there about four years ago and finally left there about a year ago. It really is terrible. So much division and real bigotry there. A sad place...but, it can be addictive, that's for sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeorgeW Posted August 6, 2011 Share Posted August 6, 2011 I can't tell you how relieved I was, to first hear someone say, that the god of the O.T. was (in part) in the minds of the people of that culture, and not to be taken literally. Marsha, Our pastor (PCUSA) said recently in a sermon, "The Bible is a book about God. It is not God's book about God, but man's book about God." You might enjoy Robert Wright's book The Evolution of God. It is scholarly but not stuffy, dense or arcane. He describes how our concept has changed through the ages and through the Bible (written over a period of approx. 1,000 years by many different men living under very different circumstances). George Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest billmc Posted August 6, 2011 Share Posted August 6, 2011 Our pastor (PCUSA) said recently in a sermon, "The Bible is a book about God. It is not God's book about God, but man's book about God." I like that quote, George. Another way I've heard it put is: "The Bible is not a revelation from God, it is ancient interpretations of God." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jagged Zen Monkey Posted August 7, 2011 Author Share Posted August 7, 2011 James, I hope you don't mind me sharing a bit more on this important subject. Like you, part of me is appalled at the way God is portrayed in the OT (and often at the way Jesus is portrayed in some parts of the NT). God supposedly sending the flood, commanding Israel to kill her enemies, demanding devotion by mutilating sexual organs, demanding animal and human sacrifice, killing the firstborn of Egypt -- all of these alledged "acts of God" or "words of the Lord" can nauseate me if I take them as literal history or as true theology. None of these things line up with my experiences with God. So I ultimately needed to choose whether to believe in the inerrancy and infallibility of the scriptures...or to go with what my heart and experiences were telling me about God. I chose my experiences and the best images of God found in the scriptures and in human history. And though I think Jesus tried to reform Jewish notions concerning God and God's kingdom, I don't believe even he could give us a 100% reliable image of what we call God. He did great for his time and I admire him greatly for his efforts, truly I do. And I think most of his teachings are spot on because of his experiences with the Father. But I also think that we have had other people throughout the years that have also given us powerful and meaningful images of God, both inside of Christianity and outside of it. This being said (and because it is only my opinion), the "God of the Bible" that many people attack (like the New Atheists do) is just an image. It is, no doubt, a prevelant image in Christianity, but it is still merely an image. And, for me, God is always More (and, hopefully, better) than our human images of God. In my own life, God turned out to be even more amazing and gracious than the song "Amazing Grace" ever suggested to me. I discovered that I wasn't a wretch, that I was and still am his unique creation (as are you). We live in a wonderful time when all these images of God are being reconsidered, not just from Christianity, but from many religions. New images are arising. Some of them are, to me, awesome and transforming. Nevertheless, they are still images. And if we don't manage to destroy one another, people a thousand years from now my ponder the best images of God that we currently hold to and shake their heads that we were so small-minded. That might be and interesting thread in and of itself .... Who we view God to be! Hmmm, I think i'll start a thread on the subject. Surely we can gain insight from other posters on the matter. Thanks for the idea! My experiences also lead me to believe in a God of love. In my mind, it can be no other way ....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jagged Zen Monkey Posted August 7, 2011 Author Share Posted August 7, 2011 This was such a good question that I've been thinking about it on and off all day. Not only did the original hypothetical make me think, but everyone’s responses did, too. I thought of Jesus' question to his disciples, “Who do you say I am?”. I thought of the first commandment. I wondered about gender-specific attributes we assign to God. Most especially, though, I thought about my own beliefs, especially those about death and what, if anything, comes afterward. My mother died recently, and two things give me tremendous comfort. The first is that my mother lives on in her children & grandchildren through our stories of her and the love we had for her, and in the children and grandchildren of the people she ministered to in hospice. The second, an idea I've borrowed from Praying A New Story by Michael Morwood, is that my mother has returned to the Source and Sustainer of all. If my life and death can be as beautiful as my mother's was, I'll die happy. Merging back to our source of life is a wonderful way to look at death. Our fleshly bodies (Our earthen vessels) return to our mother (The earth) and our souls (Who we are) return to the Father who is Spirit (Love). I can't imagine our last breath to be anything but sweet and beautiful release. "Oh death, where is your victory? Oh death, where is your sting?" Although I think very few actually want to die, I can imagine it to be a beautiful thing where we return back to God who I believe to be both Spirit/love and matter/earth, i.e. existence itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marsha Posted August 7, 2011 Share Posted August 7, 2011 Marsha, Our pastor (PCUSA) said recently in a sermon, "The Bible is a book about God. It is not God's book about God, but man's book about God." You might enjoy Robert Wright's book The Evolution of God. It is scholarly but not stuffy, dense or arcane. He describes how our concept has changed through the ages and through the Bible (written over a period of approx. 1,000 years by many different men living under very different circumstances). George Thank you, George. Sounds like an interesting book. I'll pick it up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JenellYB Posted August 8, 2011 Share Posted August 8, 2011 Marsha wrote: Our pastor (PCUSA) said recently in a sermon, "The Bible is a book about God. It is not God's book about God, but man's book about God." EXACTLY! And a very limited group of men at that. That seems so obvious to me, I cannot understand why some people have so much trouble with this... Jenell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crystal Posted September 5, 2011 Share Posted September 5, 2011 I would choose Jesus. I don't think he was talking about torturing people in an afterlife. (In other words, I think the hellfire references were metaphorical.) And frankly, the Old Testament depiction of God is hard for me to fully embrace. Interesting question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.