JosephM Posted September 19, 2011 Share Posted September 19, 2011 Hi Brent, Thanks for your response. I did read it and my personal assessment was it basically was Math 5-7 with some additional details and story and includes a more progressive type commentary that is usually found separately. I thought it did a better job than the NT alone in clarity when speaking of the kingdom of God so there would be less confusion of what i believe Jesus meant than is found in Traditional Church teachings of the same. At the same time, there are also other commentaries existing that essentially say the same things of the identical versus from the NT. After this reading of UP140 , i do think this expansion on the Gospel has real value but to me no more-so than the NT itself plus a progressive commentary of the same. While i think you have provided the "beef" i was looking for, most of it is already provided in the NT and the additional i consider commentary which may or may not be an accurate interpretation. Having said that, i am probably 90% in personal agreement with what i call the commentary in the papers versus my own revelations. Therefor, i am not opposed to anyone choosing to read the Upapers, especially UP 140 as their Bible but would suggest they look at it as just another religious writing and personal commentary by a writer. As far as my conclusions from skimming of some of the other portions of the massive and complex writings are concerned, i have no interest in such matters or validity in my own journey though i certainly acknowledge the desire and validity for such information by others according to their own path taken. Joseph Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeorgeW Posted September 19, 2011 Share Posted September 19, 2011 (edited) Joseph: Frankly, I am immediately distracted by the opening sentences: "Just before noon on Sunday, January 12, A.D. 27, Jesus called the apostles together for their ordination as public preachers of the gospel of the kingdom." Is this level of detail purporting to be history? Noon on a specific date? I think, 'okay, what is the source?' Is it purporting to be divine revelation? Well, what can I say? If it is wisdom literature, where is the wisdom? Brent: Sorry for being such a skeptic. But, I have yet to see anything that entices me to proceed with such a huge body of material. George Edited September 19, 2011 by GeorgeW Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephM Posted September 19, 2011 Share Posted September 19, 2011 (edited) George, I ignored the date, places and historical references as distracting also since i, (we) have agreed with Brent as he said " that personal belief in the revelatory origin of any written work has no bearing on the validity of any such claim. " Besides, it is unverifiable to me. In that light, i ignored all superfluous claims, dates , remarks, etc. and paid attention only to what i considered the real meat. I found in that part of it as much or more value as its related part in the NT because of the somewhat more progressive added commentary that was fitted in. I found agreement with much (but not all) of the the same conclusions i have reached without ever reading the UPapers. Of course, that might not be saying much as i find much agreement in many other religious writings also. Overall i was not really impressed as i think any progressive could probably copy and re-write parts of the NT with a more modern and clearer understanding for readers in this day and age. Just my personal opinion, Joseph PS In summation, i found nothing new but many things ( in the meat of things) were expressed more clearly than its related part of the NT by some additional dialog/commentary contained in the UPapers 140. Edited September 19, 2011 by JosephM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeorgeW Posted September 19, 2011 Share Posted September 19, 2011 Joseph, You seem to be reading it as interpretation, commentary, elucidation of the New Testament. Is that right? Would this be different (ignoring the historical assertions or claims of revelation) from one might get from a preacher or theologian? George Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephM Posted September 19, 2011 Share Posted September 19, 2011 George, Yes, that would seem to be the way i looked specifically at UP140 even though the publisher would disagree by their own internal claim. But of course, i do not even consider the NT as necessarily historically correct or accurate in story. Of value yes, but with internal geographical and historical conflicts/claims and other claims that i personally can neither confirm nor disprove nor do i any longer consider it important to me to do either. I have in this life found it advantageous in the things of God to place more faith in the personal revelations given me by experience than in those presumedly stated by others without invalidating them. Joseph Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brent Posted October 1, 2011 Author Share Posted October 1, 2011 My friends who may be following along with interest, My apologies in advance for the somewhat lengthy post as I try to recap and move ahead . To save time and energy I’ve thought it best to condense some core concepts from Parts I & II of the UPapers as helpful background for Part IV: The Life and Teachings of Jesus. Very much comprehensive satisfaction must be lost in such a gross abbreviation. Only application to the whole will provide clarity and consistency of details. A deep and thorough consideration of the text is beyond the purview of PC forums. The discussion of peripheral issues concerning phenomena associated with the origins of the UPapers, while inevitable and perhaps interesting, will not reveal the value of the teachings contained. Some of the more important postulates which I’ve more or less soft-pedaled are: The three Co-Equal and Co-Eternal Persons of the Trinity resident on Paradise The First Source and Center’s bestowals of personality and God-fragments upon created beings The spiritual mercy ministry of the Second Source and Center – The Eternal Son The infinite mindal and material ministry of the Third Source and Center – The Infinite Spirit The focus of material gravity and force-energy in the Isle of Paradise The non-existential, experiential growth aspect of Deity – the evolving Supreme Being The incomprehensible nature of infinite, transcendental, and eternal realities to finite minds I’ve opted to present information regarding the origin and nature of Creators Sons, Creative Daughters, or other Trinity origin divine beings without going into drawn-out analyses of the UPapers versus Gnosticism. Such discussions might be worthwhile on another thread, but here would tend toward time-consuming drift without resulting in the kind of convincing and consistent clarity that the text itself provides. Post #47 of this thread was the last one addressing the subject of our local Creator Son (Jesus Christ-Michael). Dutch subsequently wrote in post #58: Dutch: “There is, in a sense, a father, creator son, and mother, daughter of the infinite spirit, who create/are the source of- (or is there another word/phrase to describe their relation to the local universe? and why is this important in understanding who Jesus is if Jesus is only one of many Creator Sons?” 34:0.1 When a Creator Son is personalized by the Universal Father and the Eternal Son, then does the Infinite Spirit individualize a new and unique representation of himself to accompany this Creator Son to the realms of space, there to be his companion, first, in physical organization and, later, in creation and ministry to the creatures of the newly projected universe. According to the authors, a local universe eventually comprises 10 million planets inhabited by evolutionary mortal will creatures + many additional worlds (“mansions”) which facilitate the ascension plan to the Paradise Trinity. No matter how many Creator Sons and Creative Daughters exist (after all, it’s a very BIG universe of universes), it’s their nature and function that’s important to understand. It's further stated that the life of Jesus was the bestowal of our local universe Creator, who thereby acquired the experience of living (and dying) as one of the material-mortal creatures of his own design. Incarnation by a Creator Son through normal birth (not ‘virgin’), life, and death on an evolutionary planet is an experiential requirement for Master Son universe sovereignty. It might prove helpful to consider some other selected quotes that refer to Christ's pre-bestowal divine nature before focusing on the life and teachings of Jesus. 21:4.5 It is of record that the divine Son of last appearance on your planet was a Paradise Creator Son ... His death on Urantia completed his bestowal career; it was the last step in fulfilling the sacred oath of a Paradise Creator Son. And when this experience has been acquired, such Sons are supreme universe sovereigns; no longer do they rule as vicegerents of the Father but in their own right and name as "King of Kings and Lord of Lords." 33:1.2 (Our) Master Son possesses in his realm all of the divine attributes and powers that the Eternal Son himself would manifest were he actually to be present (in our local universe). (Christ) Michael possesses even additional power and authority, for he not only personifies the Eternal Son but also fully represents and actually embodies the personality presence of the Universal Father to and in this local universe. He even represents the Father-Son. These relationships constitute a Creator Son the most powerful, versatile, and influential of all divine beings who are capable of direct administration of evolutionary universes and of personality contact with immature creature beings. 33:1.4 … To our universe and all its inhabited worlds the Sovereign Son is, to all practical intents and purposes, God. He personifies all of the Paradise Deities which evolving mortals can discerningly comprehend. In your service, may our Lord's Peace and Joy be with you, Brent Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brent Posted March 18, 2012 Author Share Posted March 18, 2012 Dear PC brethren, Back in October ('11) I sensed a pause, perhaps prolonged, in my attempted portrayal of various aspects of the Urantia teachings was called for. A seeming paucity of interest, understandable given the posture of this board as a whole, in the UP's unique presentation of our Creator Son's participation in the evolutionary plan of mortal ascension led me to reconsider the efficacy of my service effort. So, while I have kept up with most of the threads here and have many times felt an urge to offer input, I'm more realistic regarding the idea of finding those who are willing to investigate, discover and discuss these teachings in real depth. That said, I do remain open to sharing when it appears as a potentially positive opportunity. If you've got a little available time, some here may enjoy what, imho, is a high-quality introductory resource (leading perhaps to further discussion) which can be found on this 3 part series of utube videos: (by Sangik7) A Dios (hasta luego!) Brent Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brent Posted April 23, 2012 Author Share Posted April 23, 2012 Mo Seigel (Celestial Seasonings founder and CEO) interview with Dr. Meredith J. Sprunger, UCC pastor and vice president, psychologist, scholar, university president. Dear PC friends, Meredith, a beloved friend and mentor of hundreds, if not thousands, reached 97 years of age one week ago, then departed for the mansion worlds just after midnight. Some here may benefit enjoyably (and perhaps have their appetites whetted for deeper looks into the Urantia Papers), from this earlier video interview with Dr. Sprunger. In your service, Brent Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brent Posted May 1, 2012 Author Share Posted May 1, 2012 PC friends, I've come across a short (8 min.) video trailer related to a projected documentary series regarding the Urantia Papers which I found a little intriguing. I've also heard that the producers anticipate an extended series to be aired, but no certain dates yet. Anyhow, although this doesn't yet address serious scepticism or present what I might consider to be the deeper spiritual values and truths which are confirmed in the UPapers, it may be a precursor effort toward more widespread public dissemination. Enjoy, if you are inclined "The Urantia Files" In your service, Brent Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glintofpewter Posted May 1, 2012 Share Posted May 1, 2012 Interesting choice of music. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brent Posted May 3, 2012 Author Share Posted May 3, 2012 Dutch, Since you mentioned the Bob Dylan music, I'll share that it struck me as somehow odd. Maybe I couldn't help connecting the lyrics with the Jehovah Witnesses who usually have several copies of The Watchtower when they drop by, omg! Anyhow, just like the parable of the seeds, efforts like this one will have varying degrees of sucess, perhaps some to a hundredfold... Be blessed with Peace, Brent Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tariki Posted May 3, 2012 Share Posted May 3, 2012 Sorry Brent, each to their own I suppose. Great leaps forward? Things hidden from most of us, now revealed? The "most important" series ever? Not for me mate, sorry. 7 trillion other worlds like ours? Good grief! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glintofpewter Posted May 3, 2012 Share Posted May 3, 2012 Music often reveals the age of the producers or the age of the target audience. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulS Posted May 3, 2012 Share Posted May 3, 2012 Music often reveals the age of the producers or the age of the target audience. That explains the lack of Johnny Cash in the filmclip! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minsocal Posted May 4, 2012 Share Posted May 4, 2012 Sorry Brent, and I mean it without sarcasm. I have an idea where you are coming from. I wish you well. Myron Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brent Posted May 4, 2012 Author Share Posted May 4, 2012 The Hubble Space Telescope site estimates there are hundreds of billions of galaxies in the universe (of universes). A recent German super-computer simulation estimates that the number may be as high as 500 billion… The scientific journal Nature published a study which estimated 100 billion + planets in our Milky Way galaxy. You don’t have to be a rocket scientist to realize that 7 trillion inhabited planets is quite easily within the realm of God’s infinite potential and give up a little praise for the Allmighty. Just saying - progressive enough? Peace, Brent Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephM Posted May 4, 2012 Share Posted May 4, 2012 Brent, You, in my opinion make a valid point/possibility. Yet frankly i am not impressed whether it is a hundred billion or 7 trillion. Those to me are irrelevant points and to consider that statement as a revelation to me is pointless. I have no use for that type information/detail in this life nor other information and claims i heard in that video. I find more relevancy in reading the opinions and views and insights of others here on more practical issues. Sorry, but like Derek and perhaps Myron, its just not what i am looking for but maybe others are interested in such claims.. Joseph Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glintofpewter Posted May 4, 2012 Share Posted May 4, 2012 Trillions of inhabited planets is amazing. Having them named and organized and populated . . . well . . . dutch Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brent Posted May 4, 2012 Author Share Posted May 4, 2012 Joseph: "You, in my opinion make a valid point/possibility. Yet frankly i am not impressed whether it is a hundred billion or 7 trillion. Those to me are irrelevant points and to consider that statement as a revelation to me is pointless." I am in 100% agreement, Joseph. Such "statements" may serve as "progressive catalysts" of a sort, and thus may actually have a practical relevancy, imo. Those who enjoyed the interview of Meredith Sprunger may recall his statement that the claim of revelatory origins for the Urantia Papers was not of supreme importance. The papers on the life and teachings of Jesus, religion, God's indwelling spirits, the nature of God, Trinity, the history of Earth, the development of civilization, etc...these may be recognized as more important by those who are so inclined to discover them. Loving service, Brent Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeorgeW Posted May 4, 2012 Share Posted May 4, 2012 (edited) Trillions of inhabited planets is amazing. Having them named and organized and populated . . . well . . . Yes. The UP papers do not seem to be claiming possibilities on scientific grounds, but divine revelations. George Edited May 4, 2012 by GeorgeW Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brent Posted May 4, 2012 Author Share Posted May 4, 2012 (edited) Friends, Considering the breadth covered in 2000+ pages, I find that the authors’ mince few words discussing the nature of divine revelation, epochal or personal. A notable exception would be UP 92:4 – THE GIFT OF REVELATION. If it were worth the effort, I could link to some other choice gleanings. My own view, after having considered the UPapers for over 30 years, gives far more weight to the example given of the religious life of Jesus in Part IV. Much of the rest, albeit substantial, is supporting scenery. In the very last paper (UP 196), I read: 196:1. JESUS--THE MAN Jesus' devotion to the Father's will and the service of man was even more than mortal decision and human determination; it was a wholehearted consecration of himself to such an unreserved bestowal of love. No matter how great the fact of the sovereignty of Michael, you must not take the human Jesus away from men. The Master has ascended on high as a man, as well as God; he belongs to men; men belong to him. How unfortunate that religion itself should be so misinterpreted as to take the human Jesus away from struggling mortals! Let not the discussions of the humanity or the divinity of the Christ obscure the saving truth that Jesus of Nazareth was a religious man who, by faith, achieved the knowing and the doing of the will of God; he was the most truly religious man who has ever lived on Urantia. The time is ripe to witness the figurative resurrection of the human Jesus from his burial tomb amidst the theological traditions and the religious dogmas of nineteen centuries. Jesus of Nazareth must not be longer sacrificed to even the splendid concept of the glorified Christ. What a transcendent service if, through this revelation, the Son of Man should be recovered from the tomb of traditional theology and be presented as the living Jesus to the church that bears his name, and to all other religions! Surely the Christian fellowship of believers will not hesitate to make such adjustments of faith and of practices of living as will enable it to "follow after" the Master in the demonstration of his real life of religious devotion to the doing of his Father's will and of consecration to the unselfish service of man. Do professed Christians fear the exposure of a self-sufficient and unconsecrated fellowship of social respectability and selfish economic maladjustment? Does institutional Christianity fear the possible jeopardy, or even the overthrow, of traditional ecclesiastical authority if the Jesus of Galilee is reinstated in the minds and souls of mortal men as the ideal of personal religious living? Indeed, the social readjustments, the economic transformations, the moral rejuvenations, and the religious revisions of Christian civilization would be drastic and revolutionary if the living religion of Jesus should suddenly supplant the theologic religion about Jesus. To "follow Jesus" means to personally share his religious faith and to enter into the spirit of the Master's life of unselfish service for man. One of the most important things in human living is to find out what Jesus believed, to discover his ideals, and to strive for the achievement of his exalted life purpose. Of all human knowledge, that which is of greatest value is to know the religious life of Jesus and how he lived it. Peace, Brent Edited May 4, 2012 by Brent Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glintofpewter Posted May 4, 2012 Share Posted May 4, 2012 the Son of Man should be recovered from the tomb of traditional theologyif Jesus of Nazareth is no longer sacrificed to even the splendid concept of the glorified Christ. if Jesus of Galilee is reinstated in the minds and souls of mortal men as the ideal of personal religious living Do professed Christians fear the exposure of a self-sufficient and unconsecrated fellowship of social respectability and selfish economic maladjustment? these are all interesting images and do relate to common theological questions of at least the last two centuries. The last point I listed is subject of occasional sermons. Each of the images might be worth a blog post or essay. How Jesus became Christ is the subject of more than one book. For me the florid writing of the next to last paragraph gets in the way of the conclusion: that knowing Jesus is the highest value. Brent, I will just have questions and you have 30 years of knowledge. Every idea on the 2000 pages is just a synapse away for you. For me I think these ideas are more accessible elsewhere. Dutch Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brent Posted May 4, 2012 Author Share Posted May 4, 2012 Dutch, I’m happy for you and for all who've found suitably accessible approaches to following Jesus. Brent Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minsocal Posted May 4, 2012 Share Posted May 4, 2012 There have been many pioneers who have sought to find a way for a diverse population to find a "goodness of fit" to the world. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeorgeW Posted May 5, 2012 Share Posted May 5, 2012 While, I might agree with some of the sentiments expressed, it is the statements like the following that give me pause. "Let not the discussions of the humanity or the divinity of the Christ obscure the saving truth that Jesus of Nazareth was a religious man who, by faith, achieved the knowing and the doing of the will of God; he was the most truly religious man who has ever lived on Urantia." What is the source of this information? On what basis should we accept it? George Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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