stv2k Posted May 23, 2011 Share Posted May 23, 2011 is Christ salvation for the sinner? it is Gods will we hear his son. his Son says he is the resurrection, and that the good will be raised to life, does this apply to muslims...i think so, does it apply to hindus, i think so. first, what is good in Gods eyes, is it the same as what we consider good in this liberal democratic society?.....but what about the hindus that do not do good? is Christs salvation to the sinner also extended to them, as he is sent to save the world, as Messiah to the world. to speak very loosly in a general way based on a loose understanding..... so, good muslims goes to heaven, evil muslim doesnt, evil muslim who accepts Christ is saved and goes to heaven. mohammed cant offer this....sounds good , doesnt it? so good hindu goes to heaven, evil hindu doesnt, evil hindu who accepts Christ is saved and goes to heaven. whomever cant offer this.....sounds good doesnt it? anyway, that is just my simple understanding as it is today, what do you think? 23And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world. 24I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins. 25Then said they unto him, Who art thou? And Jesus saith unto them, Even the same that I said unto you from the beginning. (John 8:23-25) 39They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham. (John 8:39) 28Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things. (John 8:28) 14And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. (John 3:14-15) 7Therefore the people came to Moses, and said, We have sinned, for we have spoken against the LORD, and against thee; pray unto the LORD, that he take away the serpents from us. And Moses prayed for the people. 8And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live. 9And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived. (Numbers 21:7-9) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeorgeW Posted May 23, 2011 Share Posted May 23, 2011 stv2k, If there is 'salvation,' I can't imagine it would be based on the accident of one's birth which is a (the?) major determiner of the religion that one is a member of and accepts. Further, there are common moral principles that link all of the major religions as well as secular humanism. These express a universal moral code which is much more important, IMO, than whether one is a Christian, Jew, Muslim, Hindu or nothing. George Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tariki Posted May 23, 2011 Share Posted May 23, 2011 Hi stv2k, I must say, reading your post, that I did think of the old saying by one wag, "There are only two types of people in the world; those that divide the world into two types of people and those who don't." I try very hard - could try harder - to be one of those that don't. Your own loose thinking, not to mention simple understanding, seems to lead not to two types, but multiple types. The "good", the "sinners", "good Muslims", "Muslim sinners"..........well, I could go on, but..... The Christian Faith seems to say that we are ALL sinners, which in one sense can be seen to be a little pessimistic - even judgemental - yet can offer humanity a degree of unity and solidarity, and can lead to the words of Blake..."Mutual forgiveness of each vice opens the gates of paradise". This, rather than a world where the "good" look with distaste at the "sinner", the Muslim argues with the Hindu, etc etc. Then , of course, according to your own understanding,we have another tier of people, those who have "accepted Christ". For me, perhaps loose and again, like you, simple in understanding, Christ is the light that lights all who come into the world. And as human beings we can, by and through grace, recognise that light, the light that has always been and always will be, the same yesterday , today and forever. For me, when the emphasis is placed upon "acceptance" (of the light), such becomes a "work" that only leads to division between people, who are only ever one and undivided in Christ's eyes. Anyway, I'm rambling and waffling as usual. Really, sometimes - often! - I really can't take some of this seriously any more. All is gift, all is grace. We can make it as complex or as simple as we like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest billmc Posted May 23, 2011 Share Posted May 23, 2011 Savation, like many biblical terms, is a slippery word and concept for us to define concretely, sometimes because the word is used in many varied ways, sometimes because of tranlational problems, and sometimes because we have overlayed a couple thousand-years-worth of theology on it. But, for me, it mainly implies wholeness and completeness. One of Jesus' synonyms for salvation is, of course, entering the kingdom of God. In Matthew 25, Jesus gives us a parable of what that looks like. People who enter the kingdom, rather than "believing in Jesus" or "clinging to the cross," enter because they have been compassionate to others. They have fed, clothed, healed, sheltered, visited, and slacked the thirst of the needy. Those who don't enter are those who have not been compassionate to others. There is no mention made of religions or creeds or doctrines or dogmas, just actions done from the heart. The real kicker in this story is that neither group, neither the righteous or the accursed, recognize Jesus. The righteous evidently didn't do these works of out some confession or submission to Christ, they simply did them out of a compassionate heart. Now, I'm not one to take this story as a literal portrayal of the future i.e. I think it is a picturesque metaphor. But what it seems to teach is that we find personal salvation as we become or embody salvation for others. The evangelical notion of salvation is often presented as a personal reward for correct faith that gains the believer entrance into a future, personal heaven. The notion presented here is much more communal. It is not at all about going to heaven; it is about heaven coming to earth. And we don't enter the kingdom alone as a personal reward. We enter arm and arm and hand in hand and heart in heart. So I suspect that Jesus teaches us that it is love that enables us to enter and live out God's kingdom on earth, not our particular religion, creed, or culture. As always, just my 2c. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeorgeW Posted May 23, 2011 Share Posted May 23, 2011 The evangelical notion of salvation is often presented as a personal reward for correct faith that gains the believer entrance into a future, personal heaven. The notion presented here is much more communal. Yes. I think that a focus on personal salvation is selfish and self centered. George Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stv2k Posted May 23, 2011 Author Share Posted May 23, 2011 Yes. I think that a focus on personal salvation is selfish and self centered. George Jesus didnt think a concept of reward is selfish and self centered, in fact , what parent in the world cant identify with such notions?. i guess to be a progressive Christian we have to dismiss alot, what do you think that Jesus said that is valid? here is a few examples, although i could go on and only focus on salvation , i just wanted you to get the point and see that it is a little more dynamic. how about this, you tell me what verses and passaged of Jesus words you think are valid in the NT, and i will only speak about this subject from that perspective. i am also curious, do you believe the prophets, the apostles, Jesus and Paul, or just cherry pick a handful of verses and invalidate their other writings? (i know i havent addresssed much on this thread, i am heading out, when i have more time i will address them) ---- Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven. (Matthew 6:1) Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven (Luke 10:20) Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great [is] your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you. (Matthew 5:12) ----- what did he mean by this? 23And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world. 24I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins. (hmmmmm, seems like a kind of atonement, possible in place by the covenant of the aninmal offerings, a replacement since God knew that men could not even follow properly? replaced with a act of faith and obendiance qand repeantance?, now , can we not even handle a request for a strive in belief?.....man is right again?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephM Posted May 23, 2011 Share Posted May 23, 2011 . i am also curious, do you believe the prophets, the apostles, Jesus and Paul, or just cherry pick a handful of verses and invalidate their other writings? I think you could accurately say that progressives think for themselves rather than blindly accepting writings whether they be from the Bible or other books. If you call that "cherry picking", i at least for one am guilty as charged. Do i blindly believe what is written by men or reported written by Paul, the Apostles or Jesus? At one time when i was a child i believed in Santa Clause and the Easter bunny because my parents told me it was true. Perhaps i have grown up a bit or progressed and am using the mind that God gave me to be a little more discriminate in my beliefs. Because i may not accept certain things as true in no way invalidates those things. People are free to believe what makes good sense to them. For me, quoting a bunch of what one may call scriptures certainly does not validate them. Jesus wrote nothing himself but Christ which is in and through all is able to bring us into all truth from within. Peace to you, Joseph Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeorgeW Posted May 23, 2011 Share Posted May 23, 2011 how about this, you tell me what verses and passaged of Jesus words you think are valid in the NT, and i will only speak about this subject from that perspective. i am also curious, do you believe the prophets, the apostles, Jesus and Paul, or just cherry pick a handful of verses and invalidate their other writings? First, although I am interested in which passages are authentic to Jesus, I would not use that as the sole criterion for 'validity.' Second, neither you nor I 'know' (based on solid evidence) precisely which passages are authentic to Jesus. Do I 'believe in' the prophets, apostles, Jesus and Paul? I believe all of these persons did exist and had some insightful things to say and convey. However, I don't accept every word of the Bible that is attributed to these persons is prescriptive, in its specific detail, for our modern world. Cherry picking? Yes, to what I think is important and relevant. George Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stv2k Posted May 24, 2011 Author Share Posted May 24, 2011 but is it becuase you think like man?, was the gospels not guded by God the Father, the Son, and Holy Spirit? "But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you." (John 14:26) But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. (John 4:4) 18I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. (Deutoronomy 18:18) 49For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. 50And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak. (John 12:49-50) 37Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice. (John 18:37) 26But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. 27My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: (John 10:26-27) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glintofpewter Posted May 25, 2011 Share Posted May 25, 2011 Hi Bill, So I suspect that Jesus teaches us that it is love that enables us to enter and live out God's kingdom on earth, not our particular religion, creed, or culture. Amen Should have read this before writing a post. God's Grace is love God's Grace disrupts our world God's Grace disrupts the ordinary flow of history. God's Grace upsets our understanding. God's Grace is unpredictable, unexpected, unknowable God's Grace is for all people. I hope I recognize grace when it comes. Because I don't see a unified description in Bible. I do hear many voices that seem to be pointing in a particular direction but they continue to be only human. But for a Divine statement, perhaps, if we must, to support our view, we offer one of many scriptures that say all will be redeemed in Christ. Yes, there are many verses that say that not all. In my view they are not consistent with what I understand is Jesus's continuing attempts to point us beyond our narrow views of who is in and who is out. Yes, this verse is freshly picked. I Corinthians 15:22. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. It doesn't say Christ shall make some alive. I am assuming that the word for all in both cases is the same in the Greek. Take Care Dutch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stv2k Posted May 25, 2011 Author Share Posted May 25, 2011 Hi Bill, Amen Should have read this before writing a post. God's Grace is love God's Grace disrupts our world God's Grace disrupts the ordinary flow of history. God's Grace upsets our understanding. God's Grace is unpredictable, unexpected, unknowable God's Grace is for all people. I hope I recognize grace when it comes. Because I don't see a unified description in Bible. I do hear many voices that seem to be pointing in a particular direction but they continue to be only human. But for a Divine statement, perhaps, if we must, to support our view, we offer one of many scriptures that say all will be redeemed in Christ. Yes, there are many verses that say that not all. In my view they are not consistent with what I understand is Jesus's continuing attempts to point us beyond our narrow views of who is in and who is out. Yes, this verse is freshly picked. I Corinthians 15:22. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. It doesn't say Christ shall make some alive. I am assuming that the word for all in both cases is the same in the Greek. Take Care Dutch all who believe in the son, his disciples. do you think this includes evil? why did he say this. 24I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins. --- consider some who reject Christ as Messiah, and in doing so, place themselves under the laws of Moses, which may be one thing, if they fulfilled the laws of Moses. but if not, where is their protection Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NORM Posted May 25, 2011 Share Posted May 25, 2011 to speak very loosly in a general way based on a loose understanding..... so, good muslims goes to heaven, evil muslim doesnt, evil muslim who accepts Christ is saved and goes to heaven. mohammed cant offer this....sounds good , doesnt it? so good hindu goes to heaven, evil hindu doesnt, evil hindu who accepts Christ is saved and goes to heaven. whomever cant offer this.....sounds good doesnt it? anyway, that is just my simple understanding as it is today, what do you think? I think this is precisely the opposite of what I understand Jesus / Hillel were teaching. Rather than religious works, both Hillel and Jesus emphasized the work of the heart (in Judaism, btw, heart means the complete person - body, mind, spirit ). NORM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest billmc Posted May 25, 2011 Share Posted May 25, 2011 God's Grace is love God's Grace disrupts our world God's Grace disrupts the ordinary flow of history. God's Grace upsets our understanding. God's Grace is unpredictable, unexpected, unknowable God's Grace is for all people. Sorry I missed this, Dutch, but I do like. Grace is for all. All is grace. Grace is not a reward for correct belief, it is God's unrelenting love towards us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glintofpewter Posted May 26, 2011 Share Posted May 26, 2011 Steve all who believe in the son, his disciples. No, it says in Adam all die, in Christ all shall be made alive. It does not say some. Paul has added an apocalyptic concept of who is in and who is out to the narrative which is not part of Jesus's message as I understand it. Apocalyptic writing is supposed to give hope to those who are under prosecution. Paul is good about ministering to people where they need it. That fact that one's oppressor will get theirs in the end gives solace to those must endure persecution now. But it not consistent with Jesus's inclusive message. do you think this includes evil? I do not believe in two gods. There is only one God who, in love, through Christ brought everything into creation, becoming. Everything. Not just the good. Not just the ugly. But the good, the bad, and the ugly. One God. The source of everything. When the one God draws everything up in and through the love expressed in Christ, all of it, everything, will be in God's grace. There are wonderful images related to this in The Shack by Wm Paul Young. I do know harm when I see it, but I would never pretend to understand if God thinks in terms of evil and not evil as I understand them. This would reduce God to one not worthy of being placed on a stick outside the sacred cave of my ancestors. (I refer to Canaanite practices before the centralization of worship to Jerusalem.) Take Care Dutch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glintofpewter Posted May 26, 2011 Share Posted May 26, 2011 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. This is the violent apocalyptic thinking that I don't find consistent with Jesus's teaching. It still doesn't leave anything behind. Jesus of the resurrection brings new life to all without violence. I thought non-violence was one of the main points about Easter. If Jesus follows his own command to "love your enemies" then this passage would be rewritten ...after he has embraced all dominion, authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies in his loving arms. 26 The last enemy to be embraced is death. This passage ends: so that God may be all in all. v. 28 , NIV . Again the inclusive all. Everything comes from God. Everything returns to God. Take Care Dutch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quaker Way Posted May 26, 2011 Share Posted May 26, 2011 So I suspect that Jesus teaches us that it is love that enables us to enter and live out God's kingdom on earth, not our particular religion, creed, or culture. I agree, Bill. In all of Jesus' teachings, we find a theme of inclusion, compassion, and love. I believe that Jesus' message concerning the Kingdom of God being here, on earth, is tied directly to references of that Kingdom being within. The reason why Jesus taught inclusion, compassion, and love is that each and every one of us is the Kingdom of God with that Kingdom being within. We must accept each other, regardless of how we, as individuals, approach God according to our various cultures because we are all of God and with God here on earth. When Jesus' teachings are understood within this context, the exclusionary practices of religion move to the outside of who we are and how we should be toward each other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hornet Posted May 26, 2011 Share Posted May 26, 2011 is Christ salvation for the sinner? it is Gods will we hear his son. his Son says he is the resurrection, and that the good will be raised to life, does this apply to muslims...i think so, does it apply to hindus, i think so. first, what is good in Gods eyes, is it the same as what we consider good in this liberal democratic society?.....but what about the hindus that do not do good? is Christs salvation to the sinner also extended to them, as he is sent to save the world, as Messiah to the world. to speak very loosly in a general way based on a loose understanding..... so, good muslims goes to heaven, evil muslim doesnt, evil muslim who accepts Christ is saved and goes to heaven. mohammed cant offer this....sounds good , doesnt it? so good hindu goes to heaven, evil hindu doesnt, evil hindu who accepts Christ is saved and goes to heaven. whomever cant offer this.....sounds good doesnt it? anyway, that is just my simple understanding as it is today, what do you think? 23And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world. 24I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins. 25Then said they unto him, Who art thou? And Jesus saith unto them, Even the same that I said unto you from the beginning. (John 8:23-25) 39They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham. (John 8:39) 28Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things. (John 8:28) 14And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. (John 3:14-15) 7Therefore the people came to Moses, and said, We have sinned, for we have spoken against the LORD, and against thee; pray unto the LORD, that he take away the serpents from us. And Moses prayed for the people. 8And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live. 9And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived. (Numbers 21:7-9) I believe that Christ is salvation for the sinner. Jesus came to earth to save sinners. Without His death and resurrection, this would be impossible. What does it mean to accept Christ? When evangelicals say this, they mean "to depend on Jesus for salvation." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tariki Posted May 26, 2011 Share Posted May 26, 2011 I believe that Christ is salvation for the sinner. Jesus came to earth to save sinners. Without His death and resurrection, this would be impossible. What does it mean to accept Christ? When evangelicals say this, they mean "to depend on Jesus for salvation." Hornet, What does it mean to "believe"? What do we mean by "Christ"? What exactly is "salvation"? What do we mean by the word "Sinner" and what do we see ourselves as to be one? Who was "Jesus"? What does "came" mean? What does it mean that Jesus "died"? What do we mean by the resurrection? You yourself ask the question, what does it mean to "accept" Christ. You give your answer. My point is not to seek to be obtuse, nor to obscure. Even if one "believe" the actual answer to all the questions are to be found in the words of the Bible, we are then faced with the various theologies and multitude of "answers" by those who believe the same. For me, the deeper I reflect upon the various "answers" given by others, the more I can recognise the profundity of the 8 points of Progressive Christianity. Just the way I see it. And to bring in another point, that just may effect the answers we each give, the 6,500,000 children who die each year of malnutrition and desease. It can barely be thought about, yet some sort of "epicycle" must be added to any scheme of salvation we devise, believe in, proclaim. All the best Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tariki Posted May 26, 2011 Share Posted May 26, 2011 Just to expand further, I would say that the "answers" we each give would be coloured by the answer we give to another question, the one posed by Christ to Peter............."Who do YOU say that I am". Christ, though whom all things are made. In effect, what is the ultimate nature of reality? We do not receive wisdom, we must discover it for ourselves, after a journey through the wilderness, which no one else can make for us, which no one can spare us, for our wisdom is the point of view from which we come at last to regard the world. (Marcel Proust) If the answer we come to is to rest, depending upon Christ for our salvation, the particular answers we have given along the way (and perhaps still identify with, in part) will never be the criteria for any judgement of others. If they are, we rest only in "works". Once again, how I see it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soma Posted May 26, 2011 Share Posted May 26, 2011 I feel salvation does not mean that we worship Jesus as an idol, but that we follow him as our divine example, a consciousness embodying the deepest meaning of life. To follow Christ we need to make real our own inner meaning of life as Christ did as an example for humanity to love. To do this we need to make an effort with sincerity and devotion equal to Christ's, to live our own life in a perfect way. It is easy in the face of conflict to give up one's real meaning and to take an easier path of imitation with no responsibility for the self. It is not just taking marching orders and do as others say. Had Jesus done this he would have been a good carpenter and not the rebel who loved and brought changes in the social conditions of his time? He overcame the barriers between men and religion, and he resisted the divisions and separateness of the time to exemplify a higher interpretation of experience. He came to pull humans back into the true meaning of oneness. Authority figures are against an individual path of freedom and intuition because they think they were appointed to think for others. Freedom of thought promotes knowledge, is good for the human race, is not dangerous and will advance civilization. The evolution of man brings us to a position where individuality operates and a further evolution is possible. Creative Intelligence is one of the greatest instruments in life intellectually, morally and religiously so it should not be despised or mistrusted. We can enjoy life in our spiritual consciousness rather than contemplate on it in the mind. Enjoying life in our spiritual consciousness is far superior to desiring and learning about it in the lower part of the mind even though the latter may be of assistance to the former. The all-pervading consciousness of God the Father makes life interesting by designing it to be enjoyed rather than understood. Many of my fellow Christians are losing the battle against a persistent bad habit, an addiction, or a temptation, and are stuck in a repeating cycle of good intention, failure, and then guilt. "The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, long-suffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control." (Galatians 5:22-23) "Walk by the Spirit, and you will not fulfill the lust of the flesh." (Galatians 5:16) As Christians walk by the Spirit of God they get self-control, since this is part of the fruit of the Spirit. I feel our actions and thoughts within and without resolve themselves in the simplicity of the whole experience, when we focus on our simple unity in God's pure consciousness and have become acquainted with it so it is apparently outside and within ourselves. This consciousness is witnessed inside, when we know that reality is more than what is observed outside with the senses. Letting go of what is little, we enter into a larger concept of life where there is nothing to fear because we realize that conflict is the result of seeing only in part, not the whole picture. I feel sin is only seeing in part. God is within each one of us so we should open our consciousness to the unity of God's pure spiritual consciousness because God reveals Himself in the condition of love, which is a kind of spiritual and physical unity. Sin seems to be a lack of love and unity again a seeing in part. Salvation is freedom from seeing in part, from being deficient in love and unity. May we all become whole or holy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NORM Posted May 27, 2011 Share Posted May 27, 2011 I believe that Christ is salvation for the sinner. Jesus came to earth to save sinners. Without His death and resurrection, this would be impossible. What does it mean to accept Christ? When evangelicals say this, they mean "to depend on Jesus for salvation." I believe that G-d created a good world. Everything in it has a purpose and a process. The natural flow of things occasionally mean there will be collisions among the various, sundry parts that make up the whole and are each evolving, adapting and struggling for survival. These collisions have been called evil or sin by shamans and priests for as long as humans have been contemplating their navels. Make no mistake; sometimes these collisions can be calamitous and tragic. But, I don't believe we need to feel guilty and place ourselves under the curse of an angry god created from our imagination. Yes, there are those who have control over others and abuse the gift of freedom and impose their will forcefully on those weaker than themselves. For those, society has devised laws to govern civility. Are these laws based on religious instruction? Sure. Many are remnant from ancient dogmas. The more heinous (like capital punishment), thankfully, have been expunged from most human societies and institutions. I really have no truck with folks who believe in the Creation / Fall / Redemption worldview, for it is one of many ways in which human society attempts to contain the deleterious effects of life's collisions. I guess I really don't believe in salvation, for it implies that G-d did not intend the creation to be a complete and good thing. NORM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hornet Posted May 27, 2011 Share Posted May 27, 2011 What does it mean to "believe"? To rely upon What do we mean by "Christ"? Authorized and empowered by God to be a priest, prophet, and king. What exactly is "salvation"? Rescued. In the context of Christianity, salvation has to do with being rescued from sin. What do we mean by the word "Sinner" and what do we see ourselves as to be one? A sinner is someone who thinks, says, does things that displeases God. Who was "Jesus"? The second person of the Trinity who became a man while retaining His deity. What does "came" mean? Go from one location to another location. Jesus moved from heaven to earth. What does it mean that Jesus "died"? He lost His life. What do we mean by the resurrection? He became alive again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tariki Posted May 29, 2011 Share Posted May 29, 2011 Hornet, thanks for the time you have spent, yet in context of my entire post you miss the import of my asking the questions. But again thanks for giving your own understanding. All the best Derek Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neon Genesis Posted May 29, 2011 Share Posted May 29, 2011 If we strip away all the theological debates and creedal language, the literal meaning of the word sin means "to miss the mark." To me, sin is what happens when we miss our mark on the path to righteousness whether by directly causing harm to others or through ignorantly neglecting other people's needs. This can be something as complex as stripping away the only source of income elderly people have access to to promote your political agenda or something as simple as refusing to give money to the poor because you think all poor people are drug addicts who are just going to use it for selfish reasons. In Matthew chapter 25, Jesus explains who the son of Man will judge when he comes in his glory by dividing the world between the righteous and unrighteous. Contrary to popular religious opinion, Jesus doesn't divide the righteous and unrighteous goats in the lines of Christian and Hindu or theist and atheist but he sets the divide by the people's actions. For Jesus, the sins that divides the world isn't religious diversity but it's when we ignore the hungry and the sick. In Mark chapter 9, Jesus explains what we must do to repent of our sins and nowhere in this passage does he say anything about becoming a Christian or participating in a religious ritual but whenever we perform an act of kindness to other people, that is the pathway to salvation For truly I tell you, whoever gives you a cup of water to drink because you bear the name of Christ will by no means lose the reward. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.