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Progressive Or Regressive?


stv2k

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the nazi's were not a Christian organization, if it would be associated to anything it would be pageanism, Christian would not do such things, maybe false professed Christians maybe, which some in the world are, they talk the talk but do they walk the walk, loving one another doesnt only happen when everyone is faking a smile towards on another.

 

 

While it is true that the Nazis were not a Christian organization, per se, they most definitely identified with the Christian Church, as this photograph illustrates.

 

Bundesarchiv_Bild_183-1985-0109-502%2C_Kirchenwahl.-_Propaganda_der_%22Deutschen_Christen%22_in_Berlin.jpg

 

The caption reads:

Stormtroopers holding German Christian propaganda during the Church Council elections on July 23, 1933 at St. Mary's Church, Berlin.

 

The Nazi Party originally sought a condordat with the Catholic See upon taking power in Germany, but talks broke down and it was never established. Hitler tried to establish a Protestant Reich Church (just like Henry VIII in England) in Germany with the then military chaplain, Ludwig Muller. I'm not sure if this ever happened either. I just remember reading something about it.

 

Anyway, to say that the Nazis were Pagan is not correct, in my opinion.

 

NORM

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The Holocaust was qualitatively (and quantitatively) different from the Inquisition. The Holocaust was racism. The Inquisition was religious. In the Inquisition, religion was the test: Jews were allowed to convert and live. In the Holocaust the sole test was race: A Jew (genetically) could be an atheist and still be executed. The Inquisition was perpetrated by the Catholic Church. The Holocaust, to my knowledge, although condoned by some church leaders, had no official church sanction.

 

I think that the Inquisition, although on the surface religious, also had underlining elements of xenophobia. Jews who converted 'coversos' were still treated with suspicion.

 

George

Racism may have been a motivation behind the Holocaust but the bible was used as a justification. Hitler also used this faith in the bible as his justification for a war against atheists: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler%27s_religious_views#Statements_against_atheism
Hitler often associated atheism with Germany's communist enemy.[53] Hitler stated in a speech to the Stuttgart February 15, 1933: "Today they say that Christianity is in danger, that the Catholic faith is threatened. My reply to them is: for the time being, Christians and not international atheists are now standing at Germany’s fore. I am not merely talking about Christianity; I confess that I will never ally myself with the parties which aim to destroy Christianity. Fourteen years they have gone arm in arm with atheism. At no time was greater damage ever done to Christianity than in those years when the Christian parties ruled side by side with those who denied the very existence of God. Germany's entire cultural life was shattered and contaminated in this period. It shall be our task to burn out these manifestations of degeneracy in literature, theater, schools, and the press—that is, in our entire culture—and to eliminate the poison which has been permeating every facet of our lives for these past fourteen years."

 

In a radio address October 14, 1933 Hitler stated "For eight months we have been waging a heroic battle against the Communist threat to our Volk, the decomposition of our culture, the subversion of our art, and the poisoning of our public morality. We have put an end to denial of God and abuse of religion. We owe Providence humble gratitude for not allowing us to lose our battle against the misery of unemployment and for the salvation of the German peasant."[55]

 

In a speech delivered in Berlin, October 24, 1933, Hitler stated: "We were convinced that the people needs and requires this faith. We have therefore undertaken the fight against the atheistic movement, and that not merely with a few theoretical declarations: we have stamped it out."

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I agree that the Holocaust was one of the most horrific human sacrifices in history. And, it was perpetrated by those who were Christians. But, it was not done "in the name of Christianity." It was racism gone wild. There was no religious test; the test was race. No one was allowed to convert. No one was allowed to disclaim their religion. An atheist Jew would be slaughtered along side the most pious.

 

George

 

George, the test went far beyond race. In addition to Jews, Hitler targeted homosexuals, Communists and other political dissidents, most Slavs, Jehovah's Witnesses, dissidents, some Protestant pastors and Catholic priests, black people, the mentally and physically disabled, and others. The figures include the camps as well as the mass graves in the countryside, killings in the street, organized mass shootings (such as Babi Yar, etc.) and basically, any person singled out for their race, religion, political beliefs, or their sexual orientation. Of the approximately 11 million killed, an estimated 6 million were Jews

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I am very new here, so I hope I am not speaking out of turn by responding to this.

 

Stv2k, much of what I'm picking up from many of the points you are touching upon seem to arise from within an erroneous mis-stating of what is actually being expressed in the "8 points" being referenced here. Being new, I cannot possibly debate with you the nuances of these 8 points as this board has chosen to adopt, so I will reach outside them to try to demonstrate what, imho, seems to be an error you are falling into.

 

A phrase used by some faith groups:

 

"We embrace all paths that lead to God."

 

However, detractors that would attempt to argue that position almost inevitably restate that as:

 

"We believe that all paths lead to God."

 

 

If you will consider upon how the second statement entirely distorts and changes what is actually being expressed in the ordignal statement, I think you may better understand why some of your iseas as you are presenting them are missing the mark in addressing the ideas expressed in the 8 points as given here.

 

Jenell

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Jenell,

 

You make some good points that are worthwhile in any event, but Stv2K has been banned from the forum for inappropriate behavior. It is clear that he (?) came here with an agenda and was not interested in reasoned discourse or exchange of views.

 

I think the problem that you allude to is that of relativity. For some, anything but their path is, de facto, the wrong path. But, as someone has said, even relativity is relative.

 

George

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deleted redundant quoted post ,, JM please use add reply button instead of reply.

 

Thank you, George. Yes, a bit more browsing these forums led me to discover he has been removed. Yes, even relativity is relative, isn't it?

It seems to me the hardest part of the journey is to figure out and understand the questions before we can hope to progress toward answers. When we persist, however, in restating all the questions we encounter so as to make them seem to conform to our pre-existing answers, we tend to just end up spinning our wheels in place or getting stuck in a tight circular track.

 

Jenell

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A phrase used by some faith groups:

 

"We embrace all paths that lead to God."

 

However, detractors that would attempt to argue that position almost inevitably restate that as:

 

"We believe that all paths lead to God."

 

 

If you will consider upon how the second statement entirely distorts and changes what is actually being expressed in the ordignal statement, I think you may better understand why some of your iseas as you are presenting them are missing the mark in addressing the ideas expressed in the 8 points as given here.

 

Jenell

Even accepting that a religious cult that practices human sacrifice is an unacceptable religious belief, a god who would torture even someone who practices human sacrifice for all eternity is just as immoral and wicked as the religious fanatics who practice human sacrifice and it's often such beliefs as eternal hellfire that is used as a justification for barbaric religious practices to begin with.
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deleted redundant quoted post..... JM

I would agree with that, Neon, though not sure sure how would related it to my point. I'd have difficulty accepting that a religion that practices human sacrifice, or such acts as genocide, ethnocide, etc, would be a path that leads to God. That is the key point I was making, that to restate "we embrace all PATHS THAT LEAD TO GOD" in a perverted and altered form, "we believe ALL PATHS LEAD TO GOD" would be a set-up for arguing those making the original statement would accept even such a brutal religion, when that is not the idea in the original statement at all.

Jenell

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