Neon Genesis Posted May 24, 2011 Share Posted May 24, 2011 Even within Jesus' time, there were disciples who weren't apart of Jesus' group who were casting out demons. At first, the apostles condemned the disciples for not being apart of them but Jesus chastises the apostles and says anyone who is not against him is with him. Interestingly, later gospels rewrite this passage so that Jesus says the exact opposite. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeorgeW Posted May 24, 2011 Share Posted May 24, 2011 Even within Jesus' time, there were disciples who weren't apart of Jesus' group who were casting out demons. At first, the apostles condemned the disciples for not being apart of them but Jesus chastises the apostles and says anyone who is not against him is with him. Interestingly, later gospels rewrite this passage so that Jesus says the exact opposite. I am familiar with the 'he who is not with me is against me' statement (Matt 12:30 and Luke 11:23). But, I am not familiar with the later "rewrite" and reversal. Do you mind sharing where is this found? George Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neon Genesis Posted May 24, 2011 Share Posted May 24, 2011 It's in Mark chapter 9 John said to him, ‘Teacher, we saw someone casting out demons in your name, and we tried to stop him, because he was not following us.’ But Jesus said, ‘Do not stop him; for no one who does a deed of power in my name will be able soon afterwards to speak evil of me. Whoever is not against us is for us. For truly I tell you, whoever gives you a cup of water to drink because you bear the name of Christ will by no means lose the reward. It's the same story as in the later gospels, but in Mark's gospel, it has Jesus say that anyone who isn't against Jesus is for him while the later gospels rewrite it to have Jesus say whoever is not with him is against him which are completely opposite responses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeorgeW Posted May 24, 2011 Share Posted May 24, 2011 It's in Mark chapter 9 It's the same story as in the later gospels, but in Mark's gospel, it has Jesus say that anyone who isn't against Jesus is for him while the later gospels rewrite it to have Jesus say whoever is not with him is against him which are completely opposite responses. FWIW, the Fellows of the Jesus Seminar do not think that the 'for or against' sayings are authentic to Jesus although they say (The Five Gospels) that the inclusive form "sounds more like the authentic Jesus." They also say that this saying "is a proverb for which there are a number of non-biblical parallels." One they cite is the Roman statesman Cicero. I wonder if the later and more exclusive versions (Matt. and Luke) might reflect the growing hostility between Jews in the Jesus Movement and more traditional Jews. George Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JenellYB Posted June 3, 2011 Share Posted June 3, 2011 I agree. In the accounts of Abraham and Moses and Joseph different concepts of God are used. Denominations already. After the death of Christ we have at least the church led by Paul and the church led by James. One author said he would keep it simple and only describe six denominations in the early church. Whether you use self idolatry as the core, original, sin or a cultural evolutionary view I wouldn't expect anything else. At my best I try to see a truth in each stance taken by a denomination. I agree with Jehovah Witnesses that one should not pledge to the flag because it is idolatrous. I have learned that to not pledge can be a show of disrespect to the military. So I at least look like I am. If there were pure divine message, uncorrupted by the limits of human understanding and agendas, we could, I suppose, be held accountable. But we are left to our muddling ways finding partial truths in community and conversation with others. Take Care Dutch Just a comment on what might seem a minor point, and irrelevant to some, but one that to me is highly signficiant...you state "After the death of Christ...." I would suggest a more accurate stating would be "After the death of Jesus"...this for that while the man, Jesus, the human element of the being we call Jesus the Christ, who had a finite period of existence here on Earth, "died", Christ on the other hand is eternal, and did not and and has not died...were it so that Christ has died, there is no more more a foundation for this faith we call Christian... just sayin.... Jenell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Posted June 4, 2011 Share Posted June 4, 2011 I came across something that seems to speak to the issue of whether God speaks and how. I'm not a reader of Ernest Holmes or his Science of Mind group, but this struck a chord with me: God within you knows by pure intuition; that is, without process of reasoning with reference to external facts or existing conditions. If God were to know in any other way He would be finite. This is why it is said that God is omniscient or all-knowing. Such omniscience or all-knowingness exists at the very center of your being. Therefore, Divine Guidance exists at the center of your being, acting as a principle in nature. (This Thing Called You) To me this 'intuition' is paramount, though not necessarily to be characterized as either simple or complex. I take it to mean 'immediate', 'inward', or 'pure' and beyond ego and reification. The richness of a religious tradition like Christianity, together with its sacraments and iconography, does much to convey this, which are often very complex and varied, yet expressing deep, ineffable, selfless meaning. I think God has always been speaking, and that the whole cosmos, internally as well as externally, is in this respect an icon of the Divine. Peace, Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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