GeorgeW Posted May 2, 2011 Author Share Posted May 2, 2011 Is it fair that since Hitler was a Christian he'll get to go to heaven if he just asked Jesus for forgiveness before he died but Anne Frank will be tortured for all eternity in hell just because she was a Jew and not a Christian? This assumes the determiner is Christian/non-Christian. Hitler and Mother Teresa were both Christians. There could be another criterion - behavior. I understand that is what Douhat is proposing. (The same disclaimer) George Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeorgeW Posted May 2, 2011 Author Share Posted May 2, 2011 How can one know, what is fair, and what is not, with incomplete knowledge of all things? If we have no sense of justice, we could not judge behavior in this life as well. I think every human society has standards of conduct in which violations are punished. I am not endorsing or accepting the existence of Hell, only trying to understand the reason that many do accept the idea. And, I find the Heaven-but-no-Hell concept even more difficult to understand. This can only assume that (1) there is an afterlife, and (2) what one does in this life has no consequence in the subsequent life. George Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephM Posted May 2, 2011 Share Posted May 2, 2011 If we have no sense of justice, we could not judge behavior in this life as well. I think every human society has standards of conduct in which violations are punished. I am not endorsing or accepting the existence of Hell, only trying to understand the reason that many do accept the idea. And, I find the Heaven-but-no-Hell concept even more difficult to understand. This can only assume that (1) there is an afterlife, and (2) what one does in this life has no consequence in the subsequent life. George George, Is this then not incomplete knowledge and understanding? While it is true that society sets up its own justice system to suit itself for that time in space and what it then deems fair or unfair for violations, the things of the spirit or the hereafter, which is the subject matter of this thread, in my view, cannot be understood as relates to fairness without complete knowledge of that which is beyond the manifestations to our senses. Can it not? Joseph Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeorgeW Posted May 3, 2011 Author Share Posted May 3, 2011 George, Is this then not incomplete knowledge and understanding? While it is true that society sets up its own justice system to suit itself for that time in space and what it then deems fair or unfair for violations, the things of the spirit or the hereafter, which is the subject matter of this thread, in my view, cannot be understood as relates to fairness without complete knowledge of that which is beyond the manifestations to our senses. Can it not? Joseph Yes, I think it is possible that there is a cosmic system of justice unlike the one that governs this single species in this one place. George Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephM Posted May 3, 2011 Share Posted May 3, 2011 Yes, I think it is possible that there is a cosmic system of justice unlike the one that governs this single species in this one place. George Yes, i agree. And in my subjective experience and view, perhaps in that system, if one wishes to call it that, there is neither condemnation, judgement, nor an opposite to heaven where the source of Life is realized. It seems to me that hell is a product of the created creature called man which in time, perishes with him,. Just one personal view for consideration, Joseph Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neon Genesis Posted May 5, 2011 Share Posted May 5, 2011 This assumes the determiner is Christian/non-Christian. Hitler and Mother Teresa were both Christians. There could be another criterion - behavior. I understand that is what Douhat is proposing. (The same disclaimer) George For most fundamentalist Christians though, a failure to believe in God or a failure to be a member of the "right" church is an action of immoral behavior and in their eyes a non-Christian is just as evil as a dictator who committs mass genocide. "All sins are equal in the eyes of God" and all that. Even assuming there may be some moral justification for the doctrine of hell, when you look at it logically, it makes little sense. If hell is a literal place where you're burned in fire for all eternity, then how can you feel pain if you're already dead? It'd be like trying to torture a ghost for all eternity. If hell is just a spiritual separation from God, lots of atheists live there lives as if separated from God and don't seem too particularly bothered by it. If hell is just a separation from God, I would rather spend an eternity in hell where all the interesting people will be like Mark Twain, Albert Einstein, and Charles Darwin rather than Martin Luther, John Calvin, or the pope or whoever. As Mark Twain once said, "hell for the culture; heaven for the climate." If hell is just a temporary punishment like Rob Bell proposes, then you can just ask for forgiveness when you die and there's nothing to worry about. If hell is annihilation then it wouldn't be any different than if there was no afterlife. The other problem with hell is that Christians assume that heaven and hell are the only forms of a reward/punishment afterlife system that could ever make sense. Other religions like Buddhism have reincarnation and karma where your actions in this life determine what kind of life you'll have in the next one which makes more sense to me and is less inhumane than the whole concept of eternal torture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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