JenellYB Posted June 9, 2011 Share Posted June 9, 2011 Soma, so true. And I like your last 2 quotes. Jenell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minsocal Posted June 12, 2011 Share Posted June 12, 2011 What is faith? There are two levels: Level 1 Faith is based on wishing that things will be the way that we want them to be. “Faith is ... the anticipation that things and people will act consistent with the picture we have of them in our head and their traditional role in a system (Schnarch, 1991). Level 2 Faith ... involves holding onto oneself and not giving into fear when things do not seem to be going to one’s liking; holding onto one’s self for security involves coping with disappointments without losing one’s sense of direction in life. Faith becomes a belief in oneself as a manifestation of the goodness of God, not an appeal as an insignificant creature to a greater power (Schnarch, 1991). “ ... the resolve to cope with and enjoy what the future holds ... the ability to expose ourselves to life through self-willing spiritual desire (Schnarch, 1991). Myron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glintofpewter Posted June 12, 2011 Share Posted June 12, 2011 I think of Level 1 and Level 2 as two different definitions. There is, I guess, movement, but they are very different stances. One expects things to remain the same or as one planned or was told, even if by Scripture. That is not faith but a certain expectation. The other expects stuff to happen and is not disappointed. It seems to me that the first part of Level 2 is very much like Level 1. It adds discussion of a response. From my understanding of the Tao: we want to stand in the flow of experience in away in which we are not grasped by the negative and do not grasp the good, but merely, gracefully, experience them both. With G_d as companion. That is faith. Not knowing. We will have experiences and God will be there. Not with promises, not with expectations not with plans. Responsibilities and expectations are the basis for shame and guilt and judgment....(Papa continues)because I have no expectations you will never disappoint me. ...What I do have is a constant and living expectancy in our relationship....To the degree that you resort to expectations and responsibilities, to that degree, you neither know me nor trust me. Mack, if you and I are friends there is an expectancy that exists ... an expectancy of being together....That expectancy has no concrete definition: it is alive and dynamic and everything that emerges ... is an unique gift." The Shack Dutch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minsocal Posted June 12, 2011 Share Posted June 12, 2011 Dutch, You have, as they say, contacted the nail squarely on the head with the hammer. And this without having seen the entire model Schnarch developed. All I would add is that Level 1 one is a dependency model and Level 2 is based on mutuality. As I see it, Progressive Chrisianity tends in the direction of a Level 2 model and this is what we must pass on to our children as they struggle to enter their new life of an adult. Myron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JenellYB Posted June 12, 2011 Share Posted June 12, 2011 I see this as what it means to begin and end in faith. In faith, I anticipate there will be experience, and an expectation of as an end, drawing from that experience some positive meaning, while allowing myself as little to no expectation as possible of either what the nature of the experiences, and the meaning I will draw from it as possible. Jenell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neon Genesis Posted June 26, 2011 Share Posted June 26, 2011 The Greek word for faith is "psitis" which literally means trust. Faith in this understanding is not about believing in a correct set of doctrines but faith here is an action, that is to commit oneself to following the path of Jesus. The earliest followers of Jesus didn't call themselves Christians but they were referred to as "the Way." When you hike on a path, you don't reach the end of the path by believing you're already at the end and have gotten your reward for taking it, but you reach the end of the trail by taking an action of walking. The same I think is true when you follow Jesus' Way. Reaching the end of "the Way" is done through action and not talk. When Jesus says to take up your cross and follow him, that is an action and not a creed or statement of belief. Talk today is so cheap and so many Christians claim to believe in God and that their religion is one of love and peace but their actions say otherwise. Actions often speak louder than words and it's your actions and not your statements of belief that show what you really believe. Though Hebrews does describe faith in terms of certainty, Christianity also paradoxically embraces "mystery" as a key element of its tenets. The Trinity itself is often described as a "mystery" and for many Christians around the world, to try and understand the Trinity with absolute certainty, as if the Trinity is merely another scientific theory, indeed is to miss the entire point of the Godhead. Another example of "mystery" is in the book of Job where Job demands an audience with God to understand why God allowed him to suffer. God responds by giving him what amounts to a non-answer. To modern readers, this seems insulting and offensive to us, but the point I think is not that God is somehow degrading Job but to remind him that the universe is too complex and grand to understand every cause and effect that leads up to your life and it is the supreme arrogance of humans to presume that human affairs are the center of the universe. I think a better more modern way of understanding what faith is is found in the familiar saying that "the only certain thing in life is uncertainty." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeorgeW Posted June 26, 2011 Share Posted June 26, 2011 There is a letter to the editor in the latest edition of the BAR (Biblical Archaeology Review) apropos to this thread titled "Faith Incorporates Doubt". The author says, "Religious faith is not grounded in purely historical events; It is grounded in the mysteries of life and God. Within the very concept of faith is the possibility of doubt, lest it would cease to be faith."" He seems to be suggesting that doubt is a necessary condition of faith. Without doubt, it is something else. George Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick the Nevermet Posted June 26, 2011 Share Posted June 26, 2011 George, That sounds a lot like Barth's formulation that God's "NO" must precede God's "Yes". In other words, knowledge/grace/union/whatever only comes after periods of doubt, reprobation*, and dark nights. As we are human, however, our knowledge of God is always imperfect, leading to more moments of doubt to be experienced in the future. * One of the ways that Barth is a strange Reformed theologian is his claim that we all experience moments of election & reprobation, rather than having a single predestined path (Like Calvin) or bringing it back to free will (Arminius, etc.). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JenellYB Posted June 29, 2011 Share Posted June 29, 2011 just a thought..perhaps faith is to have moved beyond, to have been freed from, a need for certainty? To be able to say, I know nothing, and that's ok? Jenell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minsocal Posted July 2, 2011 Share Posted July 2, 2011 Today I happened across an entry in the Cambridge Dictionary of Philosophy (1995) under the heading of "Certainty". The entry concludes that there is no certainty about what is meant by certainty. Now that is honest, is it not? Myron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JenellYB Posted July 2, 2011 Share Posted July 2, 2011 Myron, that's priceless, lol! No certainty about what certainty means to begin with kind of puts us on a moibus(sp?) loop... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minsocal Posted July 2, 2011 Share Posted July 2, 2011 Myron, that's priceless, lol! No certainty about what certainty means to begin with kind of puts us on a moibus(sp?) loop... Jenell, there is more. Under the same heading it states that we can talk about a person being psychologically certain, but "philosophers have not found this to be an interesting property to explore." Myron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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