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Neon Genesis

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I seem to remember reading a story about a group of Jews in the Holocaust who put God on trial for failing to prevent the Holocaust. They then declared that God didn't exist but went on their business praying to God and going about their religious rituals. I think it was in one of Karen Armstrong's books that I read this. Is anyone else familiar with this story and can give more details about it?

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I seem to remember reading a story about a group of Jews in the Holocaust who put God on trial for failing to prevent the Holocaust. They then declared that God didn't exist but went on their business praying to God and going about their religious rituals. I think it was in one of Karen Armstrong's books that I read this. Is anyone else familiar with this story and can give more details about it?

 

neon,

 

I'm familiar with the story, but not sure at all where it came from. Just another thing found in the dustbin of my mind.....

 

As I know it, it is the story told of a group of rabbi's incarcerated in Treblinka during WW2. Looking at the suffering around them they decided to put God on trial. Arguments flew back and forth and eventually the verdict was given. "No", there could be no God. Then one of the Rabbi's noted the time. It was the time of prayer. They knelt and prayed.

 

This for me is not seeking to make the most of despair, or flying in the face of "reality". It is faith - for me, more a letting go than a clinging to. Letting go - possibly - of "interpretations" that perhaps seek to justify ourselves and make logical sense of a reality that ultimately can only be lived/experienced, rather than "thought" or put into any sort of final conceptual formulation.

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I know that there are definitely some Humanistic forms of Judaism where they don't believe in God but still follow Jewish traditions and rituals.

 

Being a Jew has two dimensions: religious and ethnic. And, sometimes they overlap.

 

It is possible to be a complete atheist and remain ethnically Jewish. As sizable portion of the citizens of Israel call themselves Jews, but are avowed atheists. I don't think it is necessary for them to be humanistic, although some would be.

 

It is also possible to be a convert to Judaism and be Jewish religiously, but not ethnically.

 

I knew a lady several years ago who said she was an atheist but she actively participated in a local synagogue and practiced some of the dietary restrictions. She was recognizing her historical links to the tradition and this was her social network.

 

George

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The first of the eight points states that progressive Christians are those who have found an approach to God through the life and teachings of Jesus. I have the impression from the discussion so far that this statement is not sufficiently restrictive. Is that the case?

 

Now I have been an active Protestant church person almost all of my adult life, serving on various boards and being involved in my denomination at the local, regional, and on one occasion, national level. I also spent about ten years studying the sociology of religion at San Jose State and the Graduate Theological Union. I would say that at least makes me someone who takes religion in general, and Christianity in particular, pretty seriously. But I consider my beliefs heterodox (a nice word for heretical), and I frequently refer to myself as agnostic. So, am I a Christian or not?

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The first of the eight points states that progressive Christians are those who have found an approach to God through the life and teachings of Jesus. I have the impression from the discussion so far that this statement is not sufficiently restrictive. Is that the case?

 

 

Hmm. Maybe the centrality of Jesus to one's theology (or philosophy) would be sufficient to distinguish a Christian from all others.

 

But, I have a hard time thinking that a Christian could accept that Jesus was just another guy who was unusually gifted and insightful. I would guess that most PCs also accept the ethical teachings of Martin Luther King and Gandhi who are more contemporary and perhaps relevant to our circumstances. But, there is, I think, a basic subconscious distinction made between them, or any other human, and Jesus.

 

George

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Being a Jew has two dimensions: religious and ethnic. And, sometimes they overlap.

 

It is possible to be a complete atheist and remain ethnically Jewish. As sizable portion of the citizens of Israel call themselves Jews, but are avowed atheists. I don't think it is necessary for them to be humanistic, although some would be.

 

 

So what if you were raised a Christian your whole life and grew up in the Christian culture and learning Christian ethics but then you grow up and deconvert from Christianity to atheism yet you still value your Christian education and find value in the religious communities and rituals, and believe in the teachings of Jesus you were raised with? Can you not still be culturally Christian while at the same time holding no god belief? Isn't Richard Holloway an atheist bishop in the Episcopalian church?
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So what if you were raised a Christian your whole life and grew up in the Christian culture and learning Christian ethics but then you grow up and deconvert from Christianity to atheism yet you still value your Christian education and find value in the religious communities and rituals, and believe in the teachings of Jesus you were raised with? Can you not still be culturally Christian while at the same time holding no god belief? Isn't Richard Holloway an atheist bishop in the Episcopalian church?

 

I don't think that 'Christian' is an ethnicity like Jewishness. An American Christian has little in common culturaly with an Iraqi Christian, a Honduran Christian, a Chinese Christian, etc. Jews all over the world self identify with each other in non-religious ways - a shared history, shared traditions, belief that there is a biological bond, etc.

 

I am not familiar with Richard Holloway.

 

George

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Neon,

 

On further review, let me add a P.S. to my previous comment.

 

In some places, the Middle East especially, 'Christian' is an ethnicity as distinguished from 'Muslim.' It is not necessary for one to hold any theology to be a 'Christian.' A person from a Christian family is a Christian regardless of their religious beliefs. Christians and Muslims seldom marry across ethnic lines, there are differences in language usage, attire, diet, customs, etc.

 

So, where Christians are a minority, there may well be an ethnic dimension to the description 'Christian.'

 

George

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I'm not trying to say that Christianity is an ethnicity like Judaism is but for many people around the world, being a Christian is just as much apart of their cultural identity as their national citizenship is. Like in Sweden even though most of the people there don't believe in God at all, many of the people there still self-identify as Christians, they still participate in church traditions, and they still find value in the teachings of Jesus but they just see Jesus as an ordinary human who had some good teachings. I've read that in Sweden, even though they're mostly atheists, they still baptize their children but instead of baptizing their children to cleanse them of original sin or whatever, they see baptism as a ritual to celebrate the birth of a new life. They don't see anything supernatural about baptism but they see it as an excuse for them to have a party to celebrate the birth of a new child.

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I'm not trying to say that Christianity is an ethnicity like Judaism is but for many people around the world, being a Christian is just as much apart of their cultural identity as their national citizenship is. Like in Sweden even though most of the people there don't believe in God at all, many of the people there still self-identify as Christians, they still participate in church traditions, and they still find value in the teachings of Jesus but they just see Jesus as an ordinary human who had some good teachings. I've read that in Sweden, even though they're mostly atheists, they still baptize their children but instead of baptizing their children to cleanse them of original sin or whatever, they see baptism as a ritual to celebrate the birth of a new life. They don't see anything supernatural about baptism but they see it as an excuse for them to have a party to celebrate the birth of a new child.

 

Yes, religion is often a factor in ethnicity and identity.

 

George

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Do you think it's possible to be both a Christian and an atheist at the same time? Like there are some sects of Buddhism where you don't have to believe in God to be a Buddhist and there are many members of the Unitarian Universalist church who are atheists. So do you think it's possible to be a Christian if you follow the teachings of Jesus and believe religion can be a force for good even if you don't believe in God or the supernatural?

 

When asked my religion by someone who I prefer not to engage in conversation I simply say, "I follow the guidance of Jesus." If quizzed further I rejoin that I don't follow Jesus Christ or practice Paul's Christianity. This usually suffices to confuse enough that the conversation ends. If not, I will discuss my non-belief which is a belief in Jesus' teachings of 1) love thy neighbor and 2) do not do unto others which you would have them not do unto you.

 

The short answer to your question, can one be a Christian atheist?, probably is no. Christianity is defined by most the belief in the resurrection, virgin birth, salvation, etc. One surely can't consider themselves an atheist and believe these tenets.

 

Ron

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The short answer to your question, can one be a Christian atheist?, probably is no. Christianity is defined by most the belief in the resurrection, virgin birth, salvation, etc. One surely can't consider themselves an atheist and believe these tenets.

 

Ron

 

Ron, I am not sure that these specific beliefs are necessary, but there must be some minimal, core beliefs that differentiate a Christian from all others. I have proposed the divinity of Jesus and the authority of the Bible. I suggest these not as prescriptive, but descriptive.

 

George

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Neon,

 

My dictionary reflects the following...

Chris·tian (kribreve.gifsprime.gifchschwa.gifn) adj. 1. Professing belief in Jesus as Christ or following the religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus.2. Relating to or derived from Jesus or Jesus's teachings.3. Manifesting the qualities or spirit of Jesus; Christlike.4. Relating to or characteristic of Christianity or its adherents.5. Showing a loving concern for others; humane.n. 1. One who professes belief in Jesus as Christ or follows the religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus.2. One who lives according to the teachings of Jesus.

 

I think, according to some of the meanings displayed from my dictionary, whether widely accepted or not, the answer to your question is Yes. I have met people who were in my opinion, Christlike, or showed loving concern for others without any profession of faith in a religion or God. However, having said that, it is my opinion that the 8 points (point 1 especially) of PC at TCPC excludes a disbelief in God. On the other hand, one may say the definition of God may certainly be poorly defined in the traditional sense of the word.

 

Just some thoughts on the matter,

Joseph

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Is there any church or organization that identifies itself as Christian that does not include some doctrine, creedal statement or profession of beliefs in God or the divinity of Jesus?

 

While it is certainly not necessary to be a church member to be a Christian, this should be an indication of what is commonly understood as distinguishing Christian from non-Christian.

 

George

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I see that the dictionary definition includes nothing about the divinity of Jesus or the authority of the Bible.

 

Very true, Dutch. "Christian" and "Christianity" has never been monolithic. The definitions have always been malleable, depending on the needs of those who want to identify themselves as such. :)

 

Even the 8 Points, while asserting that "we are Christians who...", don't define who a Christian is (and, therefore, is not). :D

 

So it seems to me that the definition is ultimately left up to each of us to decide what it means to us and to live out that definition. This is, perhaps, a strength rather than a weakness. If someone wants to call themselves a "Christian Atheist," there is great freedom to do so, but they may have to rise to the challenge of defining their label. I don't self-identify as a Christian because I have to use more time and words to explain what kind of Christian I'm *not* rather than what kind of Christian I might be. Ha ha! :D

 

sbnr

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Is there any church or organization that identifies itself as Christian that does not include some doctrine, creedal statement or profession of beliefs in God or the divinity of Jesus?

 

While it is certainly not necessary to be a church member to be a Christian, this should be an indication of what is commonly understood as distinguishing Christian from non-Christian.

 

George, I’ve heard that some of the Brethren or Quaker churches are creedless. I wish there was one in my area. There would probably be a lot of freedom there to express your own uniqueness. Then again, creeds, doctrines, dogmas, and statements of faith are what usually bind Christian communities together. It sounds rather fuzzy, but I would rather have a community bound together by seeking compassion and justice than creeds. Churches and denominations are big on “like-mindedness” which, IMO, means, “We’ll tell you what to think and believe.” ;)

 

Side Note: If Christianity is based on the divinity of Jesus, what do we mean by divine? Do we mean, as the church councils decided, that Jesus was of the same “substance” as God the Father? How can a Spirit have substance? Or do we mean that he is not quite as divine as God the Father, but more divine than the angels? If humans were/are created in the image of God, then are not we all, in some way, divine? Or do we agree with Paul, probably the earliest Christian theologian, that “God was in Christ”? Was Jesus the “Son of God” as the Bible says or “God the Son” as Christianity says? This stuff makes my head hurt. :D

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...5. Showing a loving concern for others; humane.n. ...

I think, according to some of the meanings displayed from my dictionary, whether widely accepted or not, the answer to your question is Yes. I have met people who were in my opinion, Christlike, or showed loving concern for others without any profession of faith in a religion or God....

Joseph

 

The number 5 definition of Christianity is interesting. At one time in a particular dictionary I encountered the definition of atheist as ungodly, inhumane, etc. I'm sure the definition is now altered. Just an interesting thought. I guess Christianity meaning humane doesn't preclude a non-Christian being humane ~smile~.

 

Correct me if I'm mistaken, but doesn't Christ come from Messiah come from anointed coming from being anointed by God meaning divine. If this follows and atheist means against God (a=against, theo=god) can a person be both an atheist and a Christian? I agree a person can be humane, not meaning Christian, and not believe in a god. However, I believe it's a stretch to assert a Christian cannot believe in a god, and particularly the Christian God.

 

Ron

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Is there any church or organization that identifies itself as Christian that does not include some doctrine, creedal statement or profession of beliefs in God or the divinity of Jesus?

 

While it is certainly not necessary to be a church member to be a Christian, this should be an indication of what is commonly understood as distinguishing Christian from non-Christian.

 

George

Do the Unitarian Universalists count?
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Do the Unitarian Universalists count?

 

 

Do they identify themselves as Christians?

 

I looked on their website and could not find this identity. In the section on beliefs, it says:

 

"Diverse beliefs about the existence of a higher power are welcome in Unitarian Universalist congregations. Unitarian Universalists may be Atheists, Humanists, Christians, Pagans, or identify with other theological and philosophical traditions."

 

George

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The number 5 definition of Christianity is interesting. At one time in a particular dictionary I encountered the definition of atheist as ungodly, inhumane, etc. I'm sure the definition is now altered. Just an interesting thought. I guess Christianity meaning humane doesn't preclude a non-Christian being humane ~smile~.

 

Correct me if I'm mistaken, but doesn't Christ come from Messiah come from anointed coming from being anointed by God meaning divine. If this follows and atheist means against God (a=against, theo=god) can a person be both an atheist and a Christian? I agree a person can be humane, not meaning Christian, and not believe in a god. However, I believe it's a stretch to assert a Christian cannot believe in a god, and particularly the Christian God.

 

Ron

 

Hi Ron,

 

I believe your definition of Christ is valid. i would personally add that being anointed is more of a "smearing together with God" if you go back to the root word.

 

I also think Sbnr1 has brought up some excellent questions concerning the word divine and Spirit and such in his post.

 

As far as a professing atheist is concerned, perhaps it may be necessary to quiz him/her to determine just what concept of God he/she is disbelieving or denying. It seems to me that when one is talking about the Christian God, it is not so cut and dry as we may first think or are taught. ie: Thomas Merton was considered a Christian Monk and Christian Mystic by many and is quoted saying "I see no contradiction between Buddhism and Christianity ... I intend to become as good a Buddhist as I can." What did he mean? i can only speculate but my point is that perhaps some Christians may have a more limited concept of God, that others may deny as God, because that limited view is not shared. Also, it seems to me, in my experience wiser for me to not limit myself to unmalleable definitions that sometimes appear in traditional Christianity. With that said, i find it very difficult to draw any hard conclusion on the question of this thread with my limited understanding of the questioners actual view of Reality/God/The Divine or whatever word one might choose to use.

 

Just some thoughts of mine i wanted to share.

Joseph

 

edited JM 2-24-11 08:59

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snbr1

So it seems to me that the definition is ultimately left up to each of us to decide what it means to us and to live out that definition.

George

Do they identify themselves as Christians?

I think this is the simplest. If someone responds that they are also an atheist then they are. We get to apply our own labels.

 

"Can a Christian be an atheist?", needs further clarification before answering. In this thread we have answered different questions:

 

self identified - Are you a Christian and an atheist?

other defined - Do I think you can be a Christian if you are an atheist?

institutionally defined - Could you be a member of such and such Christian church if you claimed you were also an atheist.

 

and just riffing :lol:

 

commonly defined - Do a majority of the people think you can be a Christian if you are an atheist? (An overwhelming majority say no, I'm guessing.)

 

Of these same people

 

47% do not believe in evolution, theist(40%) or naturalistic,(9%). Only 51% of "mainline Protestants"

 

91% believe in God

87% believe in heaven

84% say they believe in miracles

79% in angels.

74% say they believe in hell

67% in the devil

34% believe in ghosts

24% in witches

37% say they believe in astrology

27% believe in reincarnation

 

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,173838,00.html#ixzz1EveYFlla

 

Christian atheism in wikipedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_atheism

 

and Christian Atheists and Humanists

http://churchofjesuschristatheist.blogspot.com/

http://christianhumanist.net/default.aspx

 

 

Take Care

 

Dutch

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It is enlightening to experience the tension between the Christian experience and the Atheist experience. It seems to be on the surface when we compare them, but if we go over to the other side and experience the science of energy forms, we see that energy can't be created or destroyed. That seems to make it infinite with no limit. We see matter as energy so doesn't that make energy a kind of creator because matter is created with energy. If I go into atheist mind set, I see this as different, but then if I go back to the Christian side and in the Christ mind set I no longer seek to subordinate one to the other. I begin to see one as being fulfilled by the other; energy creating matter as a form of the Divine, everywhere and in everything. It seems in duality we can have two experiences of the Absolute in tension and at peace or harmony at the same time in unity.

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