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God's Omnipotence


Hornet
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It seems to me in Progressive Christianity there is diversity of beliefs yet unity in Spirit. In my experience, diversity and unity are not opposites. Diversity is made possible by Unity. All that is created appears diverse to the mind yet it is Unity by which it exists and is created. This is a mystery to the mind yet only because that which is created in form seems to appear outside of that which unifies it as a whole. Man being created and temporary appears as separate but in my experience is an illusion of separateness since the very essence of creation and mankind's being is sustained and held together by Unity. If it were not so, creation would not exist. And so God and Creation are One and diversity appears, yet in a sense only Unity is eternal and exists in the formless realm of Spirit whereby the diverse and many that are seen is manifested by the eternal One. There is no other except in concepts of mind.

 

These writings say it well..... Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all. Acts 17:28 'For in him we live and move and have our being. It seems there is indeed diversity in Unity and all is in truth One.

 

Just my 2 cents on the harmony of unity and diversity in Creation and the Omnipotent God.

Joseph

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Oh, here it is...

"...the World creates God" Is this consistent with Progressive Christianity?

The complete line, both parts of which are necessary to convey the understanding:

 

“It is as true to say that God creates the World, as that the World creates God.”

 

Which is similar to the idea expressed in the following:

1 John 4:11-13 (New International Version)

 

11Dear friends, since God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. 12No one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us.

 

13We know that we live in him and he in us, because he has given us of his Spirit.

 

Yes, there can be a discussion about "complete/perfected" concept in the 2nd verse. Yet it remains that God's love is not complete without a human response. If God loved and no human returned that love then God's love would be - what? meaningless? In a world of free will that would be the ultimate risk. Without a human response God's impulse to love is unanswered and incomplete.

 

Take Care

 

Dutch

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Our thanks to minsocal for the definition of compunction.

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Derek,

 

"I can barely understand myself at times."

 

"That the Bible is the 'clear and precise' letter of God to humanity that leaves us in absolutely no doubt - or excuse - for "rejecting "Him"? That first, you need to demonstrate that such a "being" is the "only" possible source of all those things many humans hold dear? Well, go ahead, be my guest.";

 

"don't bother" - Derek

 

OK.

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Truth is rooted in space and time.

 

1 Jn4 is speaking to believers. God's love is already perfected. Yet not perfected in man until, of course, man responds by loving not only God, but 'one another'.

 

God and the World creating each other is classic circular reasoning. In other words- nonsense.

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The claims, diversity exists and is only an illusion, are irreconcilable.

I would think there can be no unity if more than one thing does not exist. There would just be one thing. The connotation of unity is of the individual parts being harmonious.

 

Eph 4:4-7 is part of Pauls' "therefore" statement, preceeded by a lot of information from which it's meaning depends. In chapter 4, Paul's emphasis was on the unity of the Church. That Gentiles could become Christians without first becoming Jewish converts. That ran contrary to what many Jewish Christians presumed. This unity was that there is one body of believers, not two. That Jews and Gentiles are now one in Christ. And that to each believer grace was given equally according to the the measure of Christ's gift. God's Holy Spirit ministers to man by dwelling within the believer, not by being the man.

Acts 17:28 is also out of context. Paul's statement begins in v.22 and ends in v.31.

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Davidk

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Derek,

 

"I can barely understand myself at times."

 

"That the Bible is the 'clear and precise' letter of God to humanity that leaves us in absolutely no doubt - or excuse - for "rejecting "Him"? That first, you need to demonstrate that such a "being" is the "only" possible source of all those things many humans hold dear? Well, go ahead, be my guest.";

 

"don't bother" - Derek

 

OK.

 

Davidk

 

 

Many thanks for not bothering. I think you demonstrate by your editing (or should I say "fine tuning"? ) of my posts just why I asked you not to.

 

All the best,

Derek

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David wrote

"everything whole" simply means everything was created already in its proper relationship to everything else.

I asked

Is this moment of creation rooted in time and space?

David replied

Truth is rooted in space and time.

Doesn't seem like a direct answer but my question wasn't direct.

 

About the following

everything was created already in its proper relationship to everything else.

I have these questions

 

What does "proper relationship" mean in this case?

 

What does the first "everything" consist of?

The first few atoms of the big bang? With a plan?

If not the first few atoms then when did God open the package of everything in proper relationship?

Does it only matter that there is a plan and that all observations of nature reveal that God had a plan?

 

In space and time could the universe be 13.7 billion years old?

In space and time could the earth be 4.54 billion years?

Is the development of the universe and the earth preparation for the first humans?

In space and time could humans (homo sapiens) have appeared 200,000 years ago? In Eden?

 

 

Take Care

 

Dutch

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David,

 

God and the World creating each other is classic circular reasoning. In other words- nonsense.

 

It's not circular; it's relationship. Between God and creation; between God and humans. Whitehead's quote (from minsocal) is a recognition that all of life is a relational process; each presence affecting every other presence. Relationship changes those in relationship. Heresy? Some would say that I guess. But I see many examples of relationship in which both God and creation are interdependently affected.

7 So the LORD said, "I will wipe mankind, whom I have created, from the face of the earth—men and animals, and creatures that move along the ground, and birds of the air—for I am grieved that I have made them."

Yes, I know that you have an explanation that lets God off the hook, but a plain reading says that God is sorry that he created humans.

 

20 Then Noah built an altar to the LORD . . . The LORD smelled the pleasing aroma and said in his heart: "Never again will I curse the ground because of man, even though every inclination of his heart is evil from childhood. And never again will I destroy all living creatures, as I have done.

God is setting limits for himself, as one might do in a relationship.

 

Negative actions on our part bring out a angry and wrathful God. Do you know what counselors say to clients who are upset about the negative behavior of others? "They sure have a lot of power over you, don't they?" We apparently have the power by our negative and positive actions to make God feel and do many things.

 

laugh and act in anger (Psalm 2:4-5), and change God's mind about who or what is acceptable, to start.

 

In the Torah foreigners and eunuchs, are second class citizens, categorically. It doesn't say there are good ones and bad ones. If you are one of these then you don't count - as much. We can charge you interest, feed you rotting meat, etc. You are barred from the assembly. But in Isaiah 56 both foreigners and eunuchs who observe the Sabbath are welcomed. by God. In the Torah God labels of "Chosen people" and "foreigner" and "unclean" and in Isaiah God drops the labels when God sees that there is relationship.

 

This is the behavior of One in relationship with us. It continues in the Christian Scriptures. There are traditional readings of the following that keep Jesus perfect and constant but in the following passage a woman changes Jesus's idea about his ministry.

 

Matthew 15:21-28

21And Jesus having come forth thence, withdrew to the parts of Tyre and Sidon, 22 and lo, a woman, a Canaanitess, from those borders having come forth, did call to him, saying, `Deal kindly with me, Sir -- Son of David; my daughter is miserably demonized.' 23 And he did not answer her a word; and his disciples having come to him, were asking him, saying -- `Let her away, because she crieth after us;' 24 and he answering said, `
I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel
.' 25 And having come, she was bowing to him, saying, `Sir, help me;' 26 and he answering said, `It is not good to take the children's bread, and to cast to the little dogs.' 27 And she said, `Yes, sir, for even the little dogs do eat of the crumbs that are falling from their lords' table;' 28 then answering, Jesus said to her, `O woman, great [is] thy faith, let it be to thee as thou wilt;' and her daughter was healed from that hour.

 

Heresy, Yes some would say, but it is a process, relational reading of the passage which seems plain. Jesus is affected by her pleas, against his belief that his ministry solely was to the lost sheep of the House of Israel. The Divine and Mundane in relationship changing each other.

 

 

Take Care

 

Dutch

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This moment exists in space and time. The truth of this moment is rooted in the space and time existence of this moment.

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It's by God's fiat that all was created. How long that takes is a good question.

Who knows how many billions of years, or nano seconds. Who's to say?

Anything longer than man's memory would be sufficient.

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Many estimates are based on evolutionary changes, infinitesimal changes over like amounts of time. The estimates of the age of the earth increases with each subsequent revising of the theory. When applying the laws of probability, scientists have come to realize that in considering the odds for the needed changes, it requires more time than previous estimates have allowed. To have enough time for all that exists to have evolved, some scientists continue to find that they continually needs more and more time for any hope of the probabilities to pan out. This has recently resulted in a push for science to accept an old concept- an eternal universe.

In an eternal universe there's hope of quieting the need for more time.

In an eternal universe it's estimated for there, finally, to be enough time for all the changes necessary required for there to be a natural evolutionary process.

 

However, no natural (the only factors available are mass, motion, and energy) process can ever hope to answer for any individual to have any import of its own.

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I'm afraid Gop and I will have to remain at serious odds over the circular reasoning behind the statement:

"It is as true to say that God creates the World, as that the World creates God.”

a statement which presupposes that the World created God first. The infinite and divine universe is a pagen concept.

 

And this:

"Evolution is a-rational. One of the results of these processes, are creatures capable of rational thought."

No one has ever been able to explain how the rational can come from anything that's not.

 

And this:

"Natural Selection, is the most rational force"(note the connotation words indicating the personal: selection and rational); yet,

 

"Natural selection is the result of interaction between the environment and the creature."

Is this any explanation? Natural selection is the force that makes rational choices in create what's to survive. But then, it's what exists that created Natural selection.

 

More circular reasoning is in order, I suppose.

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On the 181 post: I believe the relationship with God is personal in nature; and the Biblical references from Genesis, Psalms, and Matthew, well, I don't know the point that's trying to be made.

Letting God off the hook? As if anyone could get Him ON one.

He may appear captured to the sinner, but it's always in order for Him to teach us a lesson.

And in Matthew, everything went perfectly according to plan. Again, a lesson learned by man.

--

 

God is solely divine- omnipotent and personal. Nature and man are created, finite, and neither of which is divine. But man is personal, made in the image of a personal God.

--

DavidK

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