Should Christians Expect To Be Persecuted?

[murmsk]

I would encourage each and every one to watch this youtube video of John Shelby Spong as he explains that where terrorism comes from.

 

It comes from FUNDAMENTALISM!!!!

 

 

steve

[glintofpewter]

I don't think it arguable that either side can maintain a 'good' reason to: become terroristic. Yet, it seems, one side has actually chosen to.

 

I am not sure which side you are referring to. Israel is guilty of "Crimes aginst Humanity" and Genocide. Below are the choices made by Zionist fundamentalists, terrorists. I think antecedents for any Arab terrorism can be found here.

 

Zionist literature from the middle of 19th century talks about wiping Palestine and the Palestinians of the face of the map.

 

From http://guardian.150m.com/palestine/jewish-terrorism.htm (Don't attack the source; these events are chronicled elsewhere also.)

November 6, 1944. Zionist terrorists of the Stern Gang

assassinated the British Minister

Resident in the Middle East, Lord Moyne, in Cairo.

 

November 25, 1940. S.S.Patria was blown up by Jewish terrorists in Haifa harbour, killing 268 illegal Jewish immigrants.

 

July 22, 1946. Zionist terrorists

blew up the King David Hotel in Jerusalem,

which housed the central offices of the civilian administration of the government of Palestine, killing or injuring more than 200 persons.

 

October 1, 1946. The British Embassy in Rome was badly damaged by

bomb explosions

, for which Irgun claimed responsibility.

 

June 1947.

Letters

sent to British Cabinet Ministers were found to contain

bombs.

 

September 3, 1947.

A postal bomb addressed to the British War Office

exploded in the post office sorting room in London, injuring 2 persons. It was attributed to Irgun or Stern Gangs. (The Sunday Times, Sept. 24, 1972, p.8)

 

December 11, 1947. Six Arabs were killed and 30 wounded when

bombs were thrown from Jewish trucks

at Arab buses in Haifa; 12 Arabs were killed and others injured in an attack by armed Zionists on an Arab coastal village near Haifa.

 

1947 -- 1948.

Over 700,000 Palestinian Arabs were uprooted from their homes and land, and forced to live in refugee camps on Israel's borders

. They have been denied the right to return to their homes. They have been refused compensation for their homes, orchards, farms and other property stolen from them by the Israeli government. After their expulsion, the "Israeli Forces" totally obliterated (usually by bulldozing) 385 Arab villages and towns, out of a total of 475. Commonly, Israeli villages were built on the remaining rubble.

 

Why don't the Saudi's complain? We buy their oil and they buy our military jets by the dozens. No one is innocent. Complicity is everywhere We cannot start solving this problem by claiming that one side is in anyway more violent or more righteous.

 

Take Care

 

Dutch

[Neon Genesis]

 

I don't think it arguable that either side can maintain a 'good' reason to: become terroristic. Yet, it seems, one side has actually chosen to.

 

Hitler was a Christian who used the bible to justify his actions towards the Jews:

"My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God’s truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow my self to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice… And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows . For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people." –Adolf Hitler, in a speech on 12 April 1922 (Norman H. Baynes, ed. The Speeches of Adolf Hitler, April 1922-August 1939, Vol. 1 of 2, pp. 19-20, Oxford University Press, 1942)

 

"Christianity could not content itself with building up its own altar; it was absolutely forced to undertake the destruction of the heathen altars. Only from this fanatical intolerance could its apodictic faith take form; this intolerance is, in fact, its absolute presupposition." -Adolf Hitler Mein Kampf

[ParSal190]

If you claim who Jesus said He was, where only by His life, death, and resurrection is there a basis of salvation, you will be persecuted.

 

How exactly do you define persecution, David? I mean, seriously. Or perhaps to word the question more accurately, what all does the term "persecution" encompass for you?

 

Because in America I really don't see Christians, at least not fundamentalist or other traditionalist ones, hiding in fear of their lives or in fear of being jailed or tortured, or routinely at risk of losing their jobs, SPECIFICALLY for being the kind of Christian they are. Now *I* sometimes wonder if some yokel isn't going to walk into any church I'm likely to attend, and shoot us up solely and specifically for having a liberal faith, like a guy did last year at a Unitarian-Universalist church in Tennessee. I wonder this because I hear loudmouths on TV and radio, many of them Christian, deriding liberals like me--like most of us here at TCPC--as traitors to America, moral corruptors, congenital liars and worse. And because said murdering yokel in Tennessee was directly influenced by said loudmouths. But for traditionalist Christians in America, not so much worry.

 

As far as I can see, Christians who believe what you said above are very, VERY seldom persecuted in America. Particularly in the heartland "red" states, far from being persecuted, they form an integral part of American culture and even in many cases American politics. It's a funny kind of persecution that permits an "oops" like that.

 

(Edited to remove a section because therein I misunderstood David's "prosperity theology" comment. I apologize.)

[ParSal190]

Well, it was more whimsical exaggeration than some seem to have understood.

Be that as it may, prosperity preachers insist good fortune, good health, and an unquestioned, trouble free faith and life are to be expected when you become a Christian. Joseph had asked some questions similar to that 'set up' used by some of those TV preachers; such as: "How can one be of good cheer expecting persecution?"; and "If i am surrendered in Christ, how can i be mistreated?"

 

Joseph is optimistic.

 

I feel that the prosperity gospel is a sham, not Joseph."

DavidK

 

It's a good thing you clarified that, David--and that I caught it in time to edit an earlier post here to correct my misunderstanding--because that original comment did not sound whimsical to me. Albeit perhaps for different reasons, I abhor "prosperity theology" and the like as badly as you do. And I would not have taken kindly to your lumping Joseph in with such people like, originally, I thought you had. I don't always agree with Joseph, but he is a good soul and has often been of help to me since I came here.

[ParSal190]

[snip]

 

Do you believe progressive Christians are being persecuted for their faith and if you do, what ways do you think they are being persecuted? Should progressive Christians not only expect to be persecuted for their faith but to desire it and is persecution always a sign of being a true believer? Do you think there are any moments whether in the past or present where progressives are persecuting others whether consciously or subconsciously and should progressives call out other progressives who may be persecuting others?

 

Sigh. Maybe actually *reading* an OP closely might be helpful...

 

On one hand, at least in America, and as with traditionalist Christians, progressive Christians aren't being routinely imprisoned, tortured, and martyred for their faith. This doesn't mean this couldn't happen, nor that groups like Dominionists aren't actively working to make that happen, or that loudmouths on radio and TV who man or may not get the implications of what they're doing, aren't helping create a climate for that eventually to happen.

 

That said, however, yes, I do think that traditionalist Christians often persecute their more liberal fellows in various ways. A lot of the persecution is for our approach to the GLBT issue, but not all; I think a lot of it is more general resentment at being reminded that God is love, and that God expects us to live in love, not just of Him but of others, regardless of who they are and where they're at.

 

As I've said elsewhere, besides my posting here I also post at Christianforums.com, mostly at its liberal section, but I sometimes lurk (and my (braver) friends often post) in other areas where fundamentalists and other traditionalists predominate. Sometimes the fundies come to our sector to cause trouble. As such, I'm often struck...

 

1) That the fundamentalists quite often consider us not only to be wrong, but actually liars. They think we're actively (and often think we're consciously) working on Satan's behalf to deceive the good "real Christians" there and corrupt them into being heretics and libertines. Of course this is slander and as such a form of persecution, but who cares. "Who is a liar but he that denieth Jesus is the Christ," as we supposedly do?

 

2) That they often put down, sometimes viciously, new (or even "old") Christians for real or alleged sins in their lives, and put us down for trying to act in a compassionate manner to them. Not all of us would subscribe fully to all 8 TCPC points, but we all believe that people should be treated kindly and with dignity, but the fundamentalists often don't see it that way. The latter form of persecution is particularly troubling to me, as they're doing it to vulnerable, confused people, fellow believers and often even fellow conservatives, who often have a background of abuse or other trauma which is a large part of the reason why they fall into the "sin," be it real sin or alleged, in the first place. The last thing these people need is more trauma, but the super-Christians serve it up to them anyway, at best uncomprehending.

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