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Inspiration


Javelin

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Hey y'all,

 

 

You have inverted the technical definition of emotion (and intuition BTW).

 

I don't understand what you mean.

 

... nature provides us... - minsocal

 

I feel this helps define part of what differentiates our thinking. I don't believe it is technically proper to attribute 'nature' with any personal attributes, being capable of providing us with anything. Nature is just mass and energy, it is God's vehicle by which He provides.

 

By our observations, we can truly know man is as much a part of nature as anything else in the universe. And I also believe that by our observations, we can truly know what seperates man from the rest of nature, personality.

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there is no final thing, and reality is not a thing, much less to be reduced to one thing.- Mike

 

There's no such thing as reality?

 

If anything were truly separate, absolutely and truly an individual,...

 

We both well recognize man's need to have an answer for unity. The answer for diversity is where we are hunting for any meaning. Any form of pantheism can make an argument for our needed unity; yet it cannot answer for our needed diversity. I believe your post illustrates this impossible task ahead for any form of pantheism.

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Can you have objectivity in pantheism or not?

Why is a personal god necessary for inspiration or to believe in something meaningful?- neon

 

Not when it comes to diversity.

 

If there were no infinite and personal God, where do you think you could find any truly meaningful inspiration? Is it from the impersonal atoms and molecules of nature, or the Buddhist's final nothing.

Don't you need to know there is meaning?

 

 

Davidk

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Hi David,

 

There's no such thing as reality?

 

You summarize my argument very cleverly - I almost missed it. :D But yes, I would say reality cannot be defined as any such thing.

 

We both well recognize man's need to have an answer for unity. The answer for diversity is where we are hunting for any meaning. Any form of pantheism can make an argument for our needed unity; yet it cannot answer for our needed diversity. I believe your post illustrates this impossible task ahead for any form of pantheism.

 

Diversity itself has no meaning outside of unity. But unity has no meaning outside diversity - they are simply opposite ends of the conceptual spectrum. Conceptually speaking, it may be said that diversity is the answer for our needed unity, and unity the answer for our needed diversity. But I would go further and say that the Divine is beyond conceptualization - neither unified nor diverse, neither differentiated nor undifferentiated. It is a paradox even at the heart of Trinitarian theology. Your own idea of God as 'personal-infinite' is a contradiction in terms - a paradox. Personality needs relationship and relationship requires finitude - conditioned, relative existence. To me this does not mean it cannot be true - just that it would be essentially ineffable.

 

Bringing reality as it truly is to the realm of concepts, especially common-sense concepts, is itself an impossible task. Theology, philosophy, metaphysics, logic, are ultimately impossible tasks. However, defining the color yellow as such is an impossible task as well, yet we all know it intimately, beyond conceptualization. How much more ultimate reality?

 

 

Peace to you,

Mike

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David,

 

If I may quickly add, based on observing the logic in these two of your statements...

 

Nature is just mass and energy, it is God's vehicle by which He provides.

 

If there were no infinite and personal God, where do you think you could find any truly meaningful inspiration? Is it from the impersonal atoms and molecules of nature, or the Buddhist's final nothing.

 

...that to me it sounds like you yourself have otherwise accepted the premises and conclusions of metaphysical nihilism, if not for God being invoked as the only thing that can dissuade you from them. But I find that apart from transcendental theism there are good reasons to reject the conclusions of nihilism - therefore I cannot accept your premises here and we are bound to talk past each other.

 

Peace to you,

Mike

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If there were no infinite and personal God, where do you think you could find any truly meaningful inspiration? Is it from the impersonal atoms and molecules of nature, or the Buddhist's final nothing.

Don't you need to know there is meaning?

 

 

What gives God his meaning? Is God a created being? If God can exist and have meaning without being created by another personal deity, why can't we believe God and the universe are one? Isn't God supposed to be omnipresent?
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If there were no infinite and personal God, where do you think you could find any truly meaningful inspiration? Is it from the impersonal atoms and molecules of nature,

 

Exactly.

 

Standing on a west facing beach on Vancouver Island cognitive of the fact that a "conveyer belt" of the earth's crust moving from the volcanoes of Hawaii has, for millions of years, piled up against British Columbia and that some of the rounded beach rocks I am standing on have made the trip down into the earth more than once - Yes, that is inspiration.

 

Recognizing that what I do after an ecstatic experience of a disordered mind creates it's significance - that is meaning.

 

Observing that human ideas about love have been developing over thousands of years because we have language in which to carry the ideas about love - that is meaningful inspiration to me.

 

These examples are what they are. I find them inspiring. If I need meaning and significance I will make it and carry it in my stories.

 

There is inspiration and significance in the process of becoming.

 

Dutch

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Hey y'all,

 

 

You have inverted the technical definition of emotion (and intuition BTW).

 

I don't understand what you mean.

 

... nature provides us... - minsocal

 

I feel this helps define part of what differentiates our thinking. I don't believe it is technically proper to attribute 'nature' with any personal attributes, being capable of providing us with anything. Nature is just mass and energy, it is God's vehicle by which He provides.

 

By our observations, we can truly know man is as much a part of nature as anything else in the universe. And I also believe that by our observations, we can truly know what seperates man from the rest of nature, personality.

---

 

Davidk[/size][/font]

 

 

:rolleyes:

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As Moderator,

 

It seems to me that Davidk's position on the subject has been made very clear. Others have responded also very clearly on their differences. At this point it seems that it should be evident that, other than repeating ones viewpoint, very little can be added that hasn't been said and it is doubtful, in my view, that any minds will be changed by further debate. Unless someone new has not had a chance to express their view, or an existing participant has a viewpoint that has not been said, I would ask each participant to not further engage on this subject so that the thread will end in a very civil fashion. Thanks to Javelin for starting and everyone who participated for a very interesting thread.

 

JosephM (as Moderator/Admin)

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Thank you Joseph for observing some respondants were beginning to taunt rather than debate.

---

 

I would be remiss by not providing a final response to the last posed to me. So I will endeaver to be brief, as well as final, on this topic.

---

 

reality is not a thing (and later) But yes, I would say reality cannot be defined as any such thing.

 

Standing on a west facing beach on Vancouver ... because we have language.

 

What gives God his meaning? Is God a created being? If God can exist and have meaning without being created by another personal deity, why can't we believe God and the universe are one? Isn't God supposed to be omnipresent?

 

:rolleyes:

---

 

 

I cannot consider reality as: nothing, neither existing nor conceivable as an entity or fact or idea- a thing. I see reality as that which factually exists, the totality of real things, whether material or spiritual.

 

I don't pretend we can exhaustably know everything about anything, but I do know we can know things truly. Yellow, for example. Even though I may not be able to explain it thoroughly, I can reasonably expect you to truly know what it means when I say- yellow. I believe all philosophies, theologies, metaphysics, and logic understand these things about reality, and all of them are looking to find the universal truths that can sufficiently explain what truly exists in reality, whether material or spiritual.

 

I don't believe there is meaninglessness. I don't believe anyone here does either. I observe, as man has always observed of himself and the universe, that there is order and form- unity; and freedom and morals and man (each with his own opinion)- diversity. There is a meaning for man and freedom and morals (diversity) that nature simply cannot provide had God had not created it all(unity). Nature, including man (diversity)) can be inspirational because God provides us with the final, absolute meaning to it all (unity), and we can communicate this to other men, through language.

 

I've not thought out whether unity and diversity actually require each other to exist, only that both do need to exist. Interesting though.

 

I understand pantheism may give an answer for unity (order and form), and know it cannot sustain any argument for our needed diversity (freedom and morals). I know that beginning with the impersonal, as any pantheism must, where everything is finally equal, morals have no meaning as morals, freedom as freedom, or man as man, in reality, and finally, it offers no real inspiration.

 

I believe if the "Divine" was truly "beyond conceptualization", it could not be mentioned.

 

I find that we can be truly inspired through the wonders of nature. My, how magnificent are the volcanoes of Hawaii or a west facing beach on Vancouver Island. I know why they are inspiring.

 

Omnipresent means being everywhere, not everything. Being at the park doesn't make you the park. Think: unity and diversity.

 

I believe inspiration stems from knowing absolutes exist. Without any real, final answers, anything we consider inspiring would ultimately be meaningless. Since I don't believe meaninglessness exists, you may consider that I believe real, final, and absolute answers do.

 

It's been a great discussion. Thanks, and may God bless!

 

Th-th-that's all folks,

 

 

Davidk

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