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One Way Or Many?


spiritseeker
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I am just more curious to find out if people believe there is only one way to God or are there many?

 

 

Point 2 says....

By calling ourselves progressive, we mean that we are Christians who recognize the faithfulness of other people who have other names for the way to God's realm, and acknowledge that their ways are true for them, as our ways are true for us.

 

Having said that from a PC point of view, i would also like to say that the "one" way and the "many" may be the same thing in different words. For example, AITNOP (Janet) here once said

 

As to your point, Bill, about Jesus saying "I am the way.... no one comes to the Father but through me," we had a GREAT sermon about how Jesus is LOVE. "Love is the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father without love.

 

And...

Christianity teaches the way of Love and promotes the golden rule.

Buddhism uses the word compassion and also has a similar golden rule along with a number of others...

Here is a list of some of them taken from here .... The religious tolerance website

 

Bahi faith:

"Ascribe not to any soul that which thou wouldst not have ascribed to thee, and say not that which thou doest not." "Blessed is he who preferreth his brother before himself." Baha'u'llah "And if thine eyes be turned towards justice, choose thou for thy neighbour that which thou choosest for thyself." Epistle to the Son of the WolfBrahmanism: "This is the sum of Dharma [duty]: Do naught unto others which would cause you pain if done to you". Mahabharata, 5:1517 "

Buddhism:

"...a state that is not pleasing or delightful to me, how could I inflict that upon another?" Samyutta NIkaya v. 353 Hurt not others in ways that you yourself would find hurtful." Udana-Varga 5:18

 

Christianity:

"Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets." Matthew 7:12, King James Version. "And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise." Luke 6:31, King James Version. "...and don't do what you hate...", Gospel of Thomas 6. The Gospel of Thomas is one of about 40 gospels that were widely accepted among early Christians, but which never made it into the Christian Scriptures (New Testament).

 

Confucianism:

"Do not do to others what you do not want them to do to you" Analects 15:23 "Tse-kung asked, 'Is there one word that can serve as a principle of conduct for life?' Confucius replied, 'It is the word 'shu' -- reciprocity. Do not impose on others what you yourself do not desire.'" Doctrine of the Mean 13.3 "Try your best to treat others as you would wish to be treated yourself, and you will find that this is the shortest way to benevolence." Mencius VII.A.4

 

Ancient Egyptian: "Do for one who may do for you, that you may cause him thus to do." The Tale of the Eloquent Peasant, 109 - 110 Translated by R.B. Parkinson. The original dates to 1970 to 1640 BCE and may be the earliest version ever written.

 

Hinduism: This is the sum of duty: do not do to others what would cause pain if done to you. Mahabharata 5:1517Humanism: "(5) Humanists acknowledge human interdependence, the need for mutual respect and the kinship of all humanity." "(11) Humanists affirm that individual and social problems can only be resolved by means of human reason, intelligent effort, critical thinking joined with compassion and a spirit of empathy for all living beings. " "Don't do things you wouldn't want to have done to you, British Humanist Society. 3

 

Islam: "None of you [truly] believes until he wishes for his brother what he wishes for himself." Number 13 of Imam "Al-Nawawi's Forty Hadiths."

 

Jainism: "Therefore, neither does he [a sage] cause violence to others nor does he make others do so." Acarangasutra 5.101-2. "In happiness and suffering, in joy and grief, we should regard all creatures as we regard our own self." Lord Mahavira, 24th Tirthankara "A man should wander about treating all creatures as he himself would be treated. "Sutrakritanga 1.11.33

 

Judaism: "...thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.", Leviticus 19:18 "What is hateful to you, do not to your fellow man. This is the law: all the rest is commentary." Talmud, Shabbat 31a."And what you hate, do not do to any one." Tobit 4:15 6

Native American Spirituality: "Respect for all life is the foundation." The Great Law of Peace. "All things are our relatives; what we do to everything, we do to ourselves. All is really One." Black Elk "Do not wrong or hate your neighbor. For it is not he who you wrong, but yourself." Pima proverb.Roman Pagan Religion: "The law imprinted on the hearts of all men is to love the members of society as themselves."

 

Shinto: "The heart of the person before you is a mirror. See there your own form" "Be charitable to all beings, love is the representative of God." Ko-ji-ki Hachiman Kasuga

 

Sikhism: "Compassion-mercy and religion are the support of the entire world". Japji Sahib "Don't create enmity with anyone as God is within everyone." Guru Arjan Devji 259 "No one is my enemy, none a stranger and everyone is my friend." Guru Arjan Dev : AG 1299

Sufism: "The basis of Sufism is consideration of the hearts and feelings of others. If you haven't the will to gladden someone's heart, then at least beware lest you hurt someone's heart, for on our path, no sin exists but this." Dr. Javad Nurbakhsh, Master of the Nimatullahi Sufi Order.

 

Taoism:

"Regard your neighbor's gain as your own gain, and your neighbor's loss as your own loss." T'ai Shang Kan Ying P'ien. "The sage has no interest of his own, but takes the interests of the people as his own. He is kind to the kind; he is also kind to the unkind: for Virtue is kind. He is faithful to the faithful; he is also faithful to the unfaithful: for Virtue is faithful." Tao Teh Ching, Chapter 49

 

Unitarian:

"
The inherent worth and dignity of every person;"

"Justice, equity and compassion in human relations.... "

"The goal of world community with peace, liberty, and justice for all
;"

"
We affirm and promote respect for the interdependent web of all existence of which we are a part
." Unitarian principles.

Wicca: "An it harm no one, do what thou wilt" (i.e. do what ever you will, as long as it harms nobody, including yourself). One's will is to be carefully thought out in advance of action. This is called the Wiccan Rede

 

Yoruba: (Nigeria): "One going to take a pointed stick to pinch a baby bird should first try it on himself to feel how it hurts."

 

Zoroastrianism:

"That nature alone is good which refrains from doing unto another whatsoever is not good for itself". Dadistan-i-dinik 94:5 "Whatever is disagreeable to yourself do not do unto others." Shayast-na-Shayast 13:29

topruled.gif

Some philosophers' statements are:

Epictetus: "What you would avoid suffering yourself, seek not to impose on others." (circa 100 CE)

Kant: "Act as if the maxim of thy action were to become by thy will a universal law of nature."

Plato: "May I do to others as I would that they should do unto me." (Greece; 4th century BCE)

Socrates: "Do not do to others that which would anger you if others did it to you." (Greece; 5th century BCE)

Seneca: "Treat your inferiors as you would be treated by your superiors," Epistle 47:11 (Rome; 1st century CE)

 

 

Joseph

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I like the analogy of the blind men and the elephant that is often use to explain this idea that all religions are different paths to one god. The basic story is that there's a group of blind men who are touching an elephant. They can't see what it is they're touching, but they can all feel it, so they try to find out what it is they're feeling by describing what it feels like. Each of the blind men comes up with a a description of something completely different. The descriptions are all accurate descriptions of the elephant but at the same time they're all coming to different conclusions about what the elephant is to them. Some of them may be more right in their descriptions than others but because they're all blind to the elephant, none of them can know for certain what it is they're feeling yet it's certain they're all feeling the same thing.

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Excellent thread!

 

I'd like to throw this out there as I believe it pertains to our discussion:

 

With all of our talk about the "way", I think it is beneficial to state that this does not mean that PC believes that it doesn't matter what you believe as long as you are sincere. I have heard that allegation brought against PC's and liberal Christians and I think that is a mischaracterization of what is being said.

 

As I mentioned in another thread, a extreme Muslim in Texas was caught this past week before he blew up a building in Dallas. He was definately sincere in his beliefs, there is not question of that. But his beliefs are harmful to himself and to others, something that PC stands against, for good reason.

 

So, IMO, being a PC is not about taking an "I'm okay, you're okay" view of religion. Religion is a tool. It can be used for good and it can be used for evil.

 

This is why the 8 Points of PC help us define which direction we are heading. They are not about deciding who is in and who is out. That judgment is left up to the one reading the Points, just as Jesus' teachings often polarized people. But the goal of PC is not to include everyone no matter what their beliefs are, the goal is to use the 8 Points as a launching pad that helps us converse with and establish relationships with others. As long as those others are not opposed to the 8 Points, we are heading pretty much in the same direction. But it would be hard for PC to embrace other religions/beliefs that demean life, love, and personal worth. Being a PC is not about accepting all beliefs as true. It is about how we live in peace and harmony as human beings. Unfortunately, not all humans desire this.

 

Moderators, please feel free to correct this post if necessary. It just reflects my understanding of PC, not an official position.

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Bill,

 

It seems to me you said it pretty well. There are a lot of misconceptions concerning PC's and beliefs that constitute a PC. Sometimes it seems the best we can do is refer others to the principles of the 8 points for direction. They seem to me to be purposely vague in specifics of dogma and doctrine and for good reason. But one thing for sure, as you have pointed out, specific beliefs that are harmful to others are in opposition to the principles of the 8 points and unacceptable to the PC as defined here.

 

Also there are a lot of misconceptions about other religions. As you said "Religion is a tool. It can be used for good and it can be used for evil" . As best as i understand, MANY but not ALL of the original teachers never wrote a word themselves and perhaps for good reason. Within each religion I have studied i have found much commonality in what they point to so that an approach to the same God/Reality could be found. However, possibly, and in my experience, many seem to make a God out of the man created religion and it then takes on the characteristics of a sometimes sincere but ego driven man/church instead of that which its original teacher may have initially meant to point to. Such was the case in the dark ages with Christianity if my reading serves me well. Perhaps much of what is deemed Christianity today is still partially in the dark ages? I will leave that up to the individual to decide for themselves.

 

Just a few thoughts,

Joseph

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So, IMO, being a PC is not about taking an "I'm okay, you're okay" view of religion. Religion is a tool. It can be used for good and it can be used for evil.

 

 

Another analogy I like is religion is like language. We all speak the same thing but in different ways but just because we're all speaking the same thing in different languages doesn't mean that some words are hateful and damaging to speak and we should think carefully before we speak. Likewise all religions may be different ways of worshiping God but that doesn't mean some beliefs are harmful and we should think carefully about your beliefs before you act on them.
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Excellent thread!

 

I'd like to throw this out there as I believe it pertains to our discussion:

 

With all of our talk about the "way", I think it is beneficial to state that this does not mean that PC believes that it doesn't matter what you believe as long as you are sincere. I have heard that allegation brought against PC's and liberal Christians and I think that is a mischaracterization of what is being said.

 

As I mentioned in another thread, a extreme Muslim in Texas was caught this past week before he blew up a building in Dallas. He was definately sincere in his beliefs, there is not question of that. But his beliefs are harmful to himself and to others, something that PC stands against, for good reason.

 

So, IMO, being a PC is not about taking an "I'm okay, you're okay" view of religion. Religion is a tool. It can be used for good and it can be used for evil.

 

This is why the 8 Points of PC help us define which direction we are heading. They are not about deciding who is in and who is out. That judgment is left up to the one reading the Points, just as Jesus' teachings often polarized people. But the goal of PC is not to include everyone no matter what their beliefs are, the goal is to use the 8 Points as a launching pad that helps us converse with and establish relationships with others. As long as those others are not opposed to the 8 Points, we are heading pretty much in the same direction. But it would be hard for PC to embrace other religions/beliefs that demean life, love, and personal worth. Being a PC is not about accepting all beliefs as true. It is about how we live in peace and harmony as human beings. Unfortunately, not all humans desire this.

 

Moderators, please feel free to correct this post if necessary. It just reflects my understanding of PC, not an official position.

 

Bill I think you are spot on! I do not think everybody gets in to heaven no matter how they act. If they go against the golden rule and the 8 points then that is for God to judge and I dont think people in that situation will fair too well.

 

At this point in time I am feeling like PC is my way to eternity but I do believe there are many ways to eternity. As someone else said in an earlier post (sorry I cant remember who of the top of my head)"Jesus is love" and that is the way.

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Another analogy I like is religion is like language. We all speak the same thing but in different ways but just because we're all speaking the same thing in different languages doesn't mean that some words are hateful and damaging to speak and we should think carefully before we speak. Likewise all religions may be different ways of worshiping God but that doesn't mean some beliefs are harmful and we should think carefully about your beliefs before you act on them.

 

I find that analogy useful, thanks. I agree and think it's important to emphasize that liberal or progressive theology does not hold that all beliefs are equally valid.

 

In replying to the initial question, I think there are of course many paths to the divine. There are probably as many ways as there are people, since no one walks the same identical path. In Buddhism it is said that the Buddha is like a physician, he knows there are many souls with many ailments in the world and therefore he provides many different prescriptions. In Christianity Christ is also commonly seen as the great physician.

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I think we have to start with the idea that there are many paths, and, possibly, many summits to which those paths lead. Not because that is reality or that there is no way to figure it out, but because, if we rush to conclude that there is one path or one summit we will miss the richness of our different experiences.

 

Language is so important because it is how we create our reality. Sometimes the different languages and words used in various denominations is obvious, sometimes not. But each community, denomination or congregation or individual uses specific words and language to create reality. Often people change their language to fit in, and, after a time they will have changed their world. The words we use are this insidious. And important.

 

I think we should very protective of the words we use to describe our path and not change them to fit in with someone else. On the other hand we mustn't claim exclusivity for our words and our world.

 

By emphasizing the differences I don't mean that all paths are equal or that everything is relative or that some are right and some are wrong. There are usually two aspects to a path, the Personal and the Public, Holiness and Hospitality, Spiritual Practices/Experiences and Ethical Actions. It is hard to evaluate Spiritual experiences but they can be shared. The larger community, I think rightfully, evaluates the Public or Ethical behaviors and comes to consensus, sometimes by law, about which build up :) and which tear down :( the larger community.

 

Joseph has provided ample evidence of the first ethical action to agree on, the Golden Rule. And I think this ethical conversation is the one in which we should seek agreement. In sharing our Spiritual Practices and Experiences I think we seek to add to the richness and openness of our world. :D

 

Dutch

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The question as to whether there is only one way to God or many begs the question, “what do you mean by 'way to God'?”

 

We could be talking about participating in a personal calling in the hear and now (vocation and/or avocation). We could be talking about personal transformation (becoming more mature in one's faith). We could be talking about a religious end (Heaven or Nirvana). We could have to decide whether we mean one way to “One God” or “one's god” (monotheism or monolatry).

 

Isn't complexity fun? :)

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XA

 

The question as to whether there is only one way to God or many begs the question, “what do you mean by 'way to God'?”

 

Perhaps it doesn't beg the question, "What do you mean by 'way to God'"; perhaps answering the "way to God" question is part of the sharing of our Spiritual Experiences. I think that it is not what we mean that is important; there is a lot of conflict started by trying to answer that question. What is significant is what we experience and what we do: Personal and Public, Holiness and Hospitality.

 

IMO

Dutch

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What is significant is what we experience and what we do: Personal and Public, Holiness and Hospitality.

 

I like this, Dutch. It's not so much the beliefs we hold in our heads, it is the attitudes we have in our hearts.

 

Too often, conservative Christians interpret Jesus' claim of "I am the way" as the answer to the question of "Jesus, how can I escape going to hell and ensure that I am going to go to heaven?" To do so is, IMO, an almost complete misunderstanding of what Jesus was teaching in context. I believe he was talking about HOW TO LIVE TODAY, not HOW TO GO SOMEPLACE SOMEDAY. His teaching on the two Great Commandments stands in sharp contrast to that of the Religious Right of his day that said that relationship to God was determined by keeping the law and that relationship to others was based, again, on how well people kept the law.

 

My opinion of Jesus' exclusivity claim is not that he was claiming a belief system (religion), but that he was demonstrating a lifestyle (one of compassion and others-centeredness). If this is the case, then, yes, Jesus is saying that the way to God and the way to others is about love - not hate or apathy. It is about hospitality - not about selfishness. It is about how we treat others - not about doctrinal statements and creeds. If Jesus is "the way" for Christians, then it is not a series of statements about him, but about cultivating the same kind of love and compassion that he had, which, as you said, leads to personal and public awareness of God and holiness and hospitality. His exclusivity claims are not meant to bolster religions, but to tear them down. The kind of exclusivity he preached and lived, rather than erecting boundaries, tore them down.

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I like this, Dutch. It's not so much the beliefs we hold in our heads, it is the attitudes we have in our hearts.

 

 

Also, if I understand biblical scholarship correctly, most biblical scholars don't think the historical Jesus actually said this as no one else was in the room with Jesus and Pilate to know what they said and John is considered to be the least historically accurate of the gospels. But even if Jesus said this, we also have to remember that the original word for faith literally in English means trust. Back then, having faith was about your actions, not a set of beliefs people held. Faith didn't become associated with dogma until modern times as the terms evolved their meanings during the Enlightenment movement. So when Jesus talked about faith, he was talking about our actions. It's your actions that lead you to salvation, not your beliefs and there are many times in the synoptic gospels where Jesus says faith isn't what saves you. Edited by Neon Genesis
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Bill, Neon

 

If Jesus is "the way" for Christians, then it is not a series of statements about him, but about cultivating the same kind of love and compassion that he had, which

 

It's your actions that lead you to salvation, not your beliefs

 

And doing whatever Personal/spiritual work that helps us do that, I think.

 

Simple? :lol:

 

Dutch

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I think there are many ways to God. However, any religion or philosophy that denigrates others or categorically exculdes them doesn't sound to me like a way to the divine.

 

I wholeheartedly agree! One of the focal points I try and live by is respecting everybody and their beliefs and by not judging others. Sure I may disagree with them but we are all individuals and I respect that.

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(I do not intend this as derogatory nor as a personal attack.)

 

By not judging others, what do you mean?

 

I refer to post 4 above about the miltant Muslim who was arrested for trying to blow up some buildings.

 

If you disagree with his actions/beliefs, do you still respect him?

 

Should we not judge his actions as right or wrong? Are you talking about whether one goes to Heaven/Ultimate Reality/Nirvana/Union with the Divine?

 

When is judging okay, if ever?

 

And isn't that answer in and of itself a judgement against other potential answers?

Edited by Jay Tee
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Guest billmc

Briefly, it's my opinion that we need to wise about this. Yes, Jesus did say, "Judge not, lest ye be judged." But this is not the only thing he said about judgment. He also said, in another passage, that if we do judge others, we should judge ourselves first. And he implied that the judgment we used would be the same that we would receive. I don't want to get into all the linguistics on these passages, just to say that Jesus did not make a blanket statement that we were never to judge. He seemed to be concerned with correct judgment, just judgment, humble judgment.

 

I also suspect that his teaching that does deal directly with not judging has more to do with how Pharisees judged people's relationships with God based on how well they outwardly kept the Mosaic Law. So I don't think he was saying to never judge people's actions or never put anyone in prison for the crimes they have committed. I don't think God's grace means that everyone gets carte blanche to do anything they want without anyone else calling them on it. But our judgment should be right judgment, motivated by compassion and justice for all concerned, not a means of playing spiritual one-upmanship.

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This thread reminds me that awhile back there was a really good documentary on MSNBC called "To Hell And Back." It was about how the televangelist Bishop Pearson converted to liberal Christianity and how his megachurch of 5,000 members rejected him because he started preaching that there was no hell and he believed Hitler was in heaven and everyone would go there. I also really like this video of Bishop Spong where he talks about hell:

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(I do not intend this as derogatory nor as a personal attack.)

 

By not judging others, what do you mean?

 

I refer to post 4 above about the miltant Muslim who was arrested for trying to blow up some buildings.

 

If you disagree with his actions/beliefs, do you still respect him?

 

Should we not judge his actions as right or wrong? Are you talking about whether one goes to Heaven/Ultimate Reality/Nirvana/Union with the Divine?

 

When is judging okay, if ever?

 

And isn't that answer in and of itself a judgement against other potential answers?

 

Hey Jay Tee. Thanks for the reply and don't worry I havent taken any offence at all. I think it is great that we can discuss openly and freely in a respectful manner.

 

Now to get to your post! :)

 

First of all I completely agree that if people break the rules that we have here on Earth then yes they should face the consequences. Like the example with the militant muslim he should definately face our legal system. When I talk about judging I just meant that ultimately it is up to God and not us in regards to where he (the militant muslim) would stand.

 

We also have to remember that this militant muslim has been brought up in a society where he actually might think what he is doing is going to give him extra points in Gods eyes. Personally I disagree with that but I am not going to say this person would necessarily go to hell if he is being true to himself.

 

I know that sounds crazy but I can only post what I feel and I would definately not respect the militant muslims actions but If he truly believes that is a way to eternal life then I cannot judge him. I trust that God will take care of that.

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It seems to me that even our judges in this country are not put in positions to judge in the sense we are speaking of as relates to Jesus and his teachings. Judges are appointed here to interpret the laws that are passed by the legislative branch rather than to pass judgement on the person. Judgement in the sense that Jesus was speaking of , to me, leads to self-righteousness. It is highly subjective and without knowledge or vision of God. That is probably why it is recorded that Jesus said IF he did judge, his judgement would be true because it was not him that judged but that which came from the Father. There is always a difference between the two. Therefore the commandment to Judge not lest ye be judged.

Just another view to consider,

Joseph

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(I do not intend this as derogatory nor as a personal attack.)

 

By not judging others, what do you mean?

 

I refer to post 4 above about the miltant Muslim who was arrested for trying to blow up some buildings.

 

If you disagree with his actions/beliefs, do you still respect him?

 

Should we not judge his actions as right or wrong? Are you talking about whether one goes to Heaven/Ultimate Reality/Nirvana/Union with the Divine?

 

When is judging okay, if ever?

 

And isn't that answer in and of itself a judgement against other potential answers?

 

Jay Tee,

 

I've been reflecting on this for a couple of days. As I'm very much influenced by "eastern" ideas, I suppose I could waffle on for quite a while about "choiceless awareness" etc etc, but I've always been an admirer of the OT prophets who thundered out their condemnation of "unrighteousness"!

 

First, it has to be recognised that their words were directed more often than not towards their own people, which has its own lessons for those with ears to hear! Second, there is the old adage that we should condemn/judge the sin, not the sinner.

 

But really, for me, it is from where any "judgement" comes from within us. If we have a deep recognition that we live by grace/mercy ourselves, then any judgement made of the acts of others will have a different focus and orientation than if they are made from a sense of "righteousness".

 

And getting a little more personal, I have to confess to a bias against Islam as a religion. Sadly, when I hear of certain acts of those who claim allegiance to Islam, I have to witness to a degree of relish in my heart, a sense of justification and even pleasure. This is a sickness within my own unenlightened heart. In my lighter moments I see is as the death throes of my ego, and it also serves - as contrast - to brighten the light of Reality-as-is and open my heart to it more.

 

Anyway, not so much an answer to your question, more a confessional!

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I don't think judging in itself is wrong. It's part of human nature to judge others and we all make judgments in our lives, but we don't seem to recognize positive judgments as being judgments and only recognize negative judgments as such. Like what I mean is that if we tell someone that they're a really nice and friendly person that they love to be around, that's a judgment we're making of the person, it's just a positive one but we don't recognize this kind of judging as a judgment for some reason. I think judging only becomes an issue when we judge hypocritically and unrighteous as others have pointed out. The problem is that when many Christians judge others, they judge over frivolous issues that don't really matter, like where they go to church, what beliefs do they have, what gender they love etc.

 

Then nine times out of ten, they turn around and get involved in sex scandals and other political controversies or they discriminate others and their church will defend their actions using scriptures and of course not all Christians are like this. But I also think there's a tendency to judge in another way, where we make sweeping generalizations of other groups of people. There are fundamentalist Muslims will make sweeping generalizations about how corrupt western culture is, there are Christians make who make sweeping generalizations that all atheists are militant and dogmatic people with no values, and there are also some atheists who make sweeping generalizations of religious people as all being stupid. Speaking as an atheist, I think this problem of judging is a problem with all humanity and not just with religion. I think we need to try understanding people who are different from us instead of jumping to conclusions as to what they are like because of the label they use and we need to stop judging issues that don't really matter in the long end and get back to thinking before we judge and focusing on issues that really matter.

Edited by Neon Genesis
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