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The Afterlife


spiritseeker
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I wholeheartedly believe that there is an afterlife. I dont have any evidence of this ofcourse but my heart tells me that it is truth so I will run with that. What do you guys believe?

 

I believe there are many paths to eternal life and that it does not have to be through Jesus. Basically I think if you are true to yourself then you will be on your own path to eternity. Due to all our individual life experiences, our upbringings, our own individual reasoning and our own minds and hearts there is no way I could believe there is only one way to God!

 

I look forward to all your comments.

 

 

Moderator Note....

This thread was moved from the Progressive area to the Debate and Dialog area to not limit responses to PC's only. Dialog between Moderator and OP was deleted after clarification that poster did not want to limit responses to those who consider themselves PC's . JosephM( as Moderator/Admin)

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Hi Bill,

 

I really love how everyone has their own views and I totally respect that. What my heart is telling me about the afterlife may be merely a hope that we live on but I go with what I feel.

 

If I am wrong well there is nothing I can do about that! :)

 

What happens in the afterlife is something I cant even comprehend but I am not much into playing the harp! :)

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I moved my response to Spiritseekers question about the afterlife over here because, if I understand the other part of the forum, it is for Christians only, albeit progressive ones.

 

As far as the afterlife goes, I am agnostic about it. I do believe that God "is" and I enjoy, to some extent, participating in God's life NOW - the abundant life. Therefore, when I die I believe that I will continue to be in what "is". But I don't hold to any notions of sitting on a cloud playing a harp, or walking streets of gold, or having a mansion over the hilltop, or standing before a throne singing, "Holy, holy, holy" for all eternity. To me, these beliefs were part of the way ancient religions believed in an afterlife of reward and punishment and I'm just not convinced that they have any literal basis nor that they are just.

 

So when I die, I will probably just die as far as my conscious awarenessness of self goes. And that is okay with me. I will have had my turn, which is a wondrous opportunity, to love others and to, in some small degree, make our world a better place. That's enough for me. It doesn't bother me in the least that I won't "go to heaven" and I certainly don't fear "going to hell". My views are certainly unorthodox, but I've grown comfortable with being that way. :)

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Hi again,

 

What I meant is just that there is a strong tradition of reincarnation in certain aspects of Judaism, the concept of John the Baptist as being the reincarnation of Elijah is attributed to a Jesus quote in the NT, though one could take that as being metaphorical of course, and there are arguments that at least one of the early church fathers entertained the notion of a transmigration of the soul.

 

Having said all of that I think an afterlife is something which each individual should consider and medidate on in their own way. If there was absolute and undenial proof that Jesus believed in a single linear ascent of the soul and nothing else, I would still believe in reincarnation, as it is simply something I feel compelled to believe in when looking around me and inside of me. As to how that reincarnation or rebirth takes place, that is a long story, and while I have my own interests, who knows! But at one of our group meetings recently a Bahai representative explained their concept. They believe that once one dies on earth the soul leaves and doesn't come back, but they go on to have other existences on different planes, improving oneself, before an ultimate joining with the 'covenant of god'. I found that really interesting.

 

Adi

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Hi again,

 

What I meant is just that there is a strong tradition of reincarnation in certain aspects of Judaism, the concept of John the Baptist as being the reincarnation of Elijah is attributed to a Jesus quote in the NT, though one could take that as being metaphorical of course, and there are arguments that at least one of the early church fathers entertained the notion of a transmigration of the soul.

 

Having said all of that I think an afterlife is something which each individual should consider and medidate on in their own way. If there was absolute and undenial proof that Jesus believed in a single linear ascent of the soul and nothing else, I would still believe in reincarnation, as it is simply something I feel compelled to believe in when looking around me and inside of me. As to how that reincarnation or rebirth takes place, that is a long story, and while I have my own interests, who knows! But at one of our group meetings recently a Bahai representative explained their concept. They believe that once one dies on earth the soul leaves and doesn't come back, but they go on to have other existences on different planes, improving oneself, before an ultimate joining with the 'covenant of god'. I found that really interesting.

 

Adi

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I celebrate our individuality and love hearing about everyones different beliefs and thoughts. It really enhances my world perspective and I just learn so much.

 

From my perspective, that is alot of what we are about here, Spiritseeker, celebrating each other and our respective journeys. We don't take a "one size fits all" approach that tells people what they must think and that they have to experience God the same way. To me, the fact that we are all individuals says that God loves diversity, not conformity. No two snowflakes are exactly alike. If God can do that with snowflakes, then he surely does it with humans.

 

Religion often tries to force conformity of belief, calling it unity. But, to me, what that is is stagnation, an imposition to stop growing in experience and understanding.

 

I live about 30 miles from Dallas. As I'm sure you know, another bomber was foiled here this past week. He was someone who was not only willing to die to gain an "afterlife" of reward, but who believes that the more "Christians" and "Jews" he takes with him, the greater his reward will be. This is, to me, what concrete, unchanging orthodox beliefs in the afterlife lead to -- a motive for personal gain that can sometimes even lead to harm for those who don't hold to your view. There is an atheist song that says, "I ain't afraid of your Yahweh, I ain't afraid of your Allah, I ain't afraid of your Jesus, but I'm afraid of what you do in the name of your god." To me, that sums up what happens in religion when people think that it is not about life here and now, but about life after.

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I think Bill makes a good point,

 

It seems to me that if one lives mostly in the future or by future promises one will essentially die to the present. One will not recognize that which is 'at hand' now. It also seems to me that the good news Jesus proclaimed was also 'at hand' and not in the distant future except to those who placed their faith in the passed down beliefs of others of things they knew little about. In other words, though interesting, the aftelife, perhaps may be distracting to the present.

 

Now, having said that, I am of the persuasion that there is only Life eternal and therefore how could there really be anything after? It is always Now. Reincarnation is an interesting topic and in my view supported in part by both Jewish history and the NT but without personal subjective experience, it is just hearsay.

 

Just a view to consider,

Joseph

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I too am agnostic when it comes to the afterlife. This present life is the only one I can do anything about, so if there is an afterlife I leave it to forces greater than myself and will simply live as authentically as I can in the here and now. I am beginning to see my 'true self' as existing everywhere, every-time, from every reference point. What I normally call 'myself' is just one point of reference equal to all others. In other words, what I really am is united to God. So personal continuity after death, while I do not deny the possibility, is not something I focus on as a point of belief.

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I moved my response to Spiritseekers question about the afterlife over here because, if I understand the other part of the forum, it is for Christians only, albeit progressive ones.

 

As far as the afterlife goes, I am agnostic about it. I do believe that God "is" and I enjoy, to some extent, participating in God's life NOW - the abundant life. Therefore, when I die I believe that I will continue to be in what "is". But I don't hold to any notions of sitting on a cloud playing a harp, or walking streets of gold, or having a mansion over the hilltop, or standing before a throne singing, "Holy, holy, holy" for all eternity. To me, these beliefs were part of the way ancient religions believed in an afterlife of reward and punishment and I'm just not convinced that they have any literal basis nor that they are just.

 

So when I die, I will probably just die as far as my conscious awarenessness of self goes. And that is okay with me. I will have had my turn, which is a wondrous opportunity, to love others and to, in some small degree, make our world a better place. That's enough for me. It doesn't bother me in the least that I won't "go to heaven" and I certainly don't fear "going to hell". My views are certainly unorthodox, but I've grown comfortable with being that way. :)

 

Billmc,

 

By inclination I'm pretty sympathetic towards your view, though being English I tend to think in terms of "having had a good innings"!! There was a passage in a book by a Japanese guy that I liked where he spoke of his own images and symbols...........his idea was of all of us just being individual drops of water being carried along in a mighty river and each will eventually be accepted and absorbed into the sea. And again, the point JoesephM makes, that all is NOW and there can be no after.......well, that rings its own bells for me.......that the present "has no extension but intensity"

 

The rose that

with my mortal eye I see

flowers in God

through all eternity

 

Nevertheless, I must witness to some stray thoughts that give me pause for thought, not least the lives I see around me (and back in linear time)that are the polar opposite of a "good innings". I believe all of us here share some sort of idea that "God" is "love", even that "justice" would play some part in the divine economy. No matter just what "mystical" ideas enfold me and guide me, the idea that the lives of some who suffer beyond my capacity to even understand are somehow just absorbed and that is the end of it..............well, as I say, I pause for thought.

 

I gave a few moments to the thread on this forum on the Trinity, and was taken by the second point....."It represents a continuum of relation and interdependence of the aspects of existence". Within Buddhism the word "non-duality" is used, and often understood to be the polar opposite of "duality" so that "reality" is then seen us some sort of undifferentiated glug! But Buddhist "non-duality" embraces "duality" and is certainly not seen as its opposite. In my own Pure Land symbolism, the undifferentiated aspect of "enlightenment" is represented by gold, and the individuality, or "suchness"/uniqueness of each, by the lotus flower. Visions of the Pure Land abound with pictures of an infinity of golden lotus flowers.....

 

There seems to me "room" in eternity for differentiation, not just a total absorption. "Eye has not seen, nor ear heard"

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There was a passage in a book by a Japanese guy that I liked where he spoke of his own images and symbols...........his idea was of all of us just being individual drops of water being carried along in a mighty river and each will eventually be accepted and absorbed into the sea.

 

My daughter and I had a conversation all these very same lines yesterday. She is 26 and afraid to die. I used a similar analogy and said that most Christians envision eternity as a flask of water where their individual drops (souls) of red, blue, and green get dropped in. Those colored drops remain intact with a strong identity of "self". So they are very concerned about seeing other "drops" and finding the one, big Drop (Jesus) to worship.

 

I told my daughter that as far as a future eternity goes, our individual drops of red, blue, and green will, like food coloring disperse and intermingle with each other and with God, Jesus, etc. In Pauline terms, God becomes all and in all. And because we do "mix", we lose our sense of self, our sense of heaven as being a personal reward.

 

Of course, this is just a word-picture for me, a metaphor, and I don't really know what will happen to me after I die. But it seems to me that it is foolish to continually worry about something that happens to all of us and which, for the most part, humans have learned to cope with in creative ways.

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(snip)

Nevertheless, I must witness to some stray thoughts that give me pause for thought, not least the lives I see around me (and back in linear time)that are the polar opposite of a "good innings". I believe all of us here share some sort of idea that "God" is "love", even that "justice" would play some part in the divine economy. No matter just what "mystical" ideas enfold me and guide me, the idea that the lives of some who suffer beyond my capacity to even understand are somehow just absorbed and that is the end of it..............well, as I say, I pause for thought.

 

I gave a few moments to the thread on this forum on the Trinity, and was taken by the second point....."It represents a continuum of relation and interdependence of the aspects of existence". Within Buddhism the word "non-duality" is used, and often understood to be the polar opposite of "duality" so that "reality" is then seen us some sort of undifferentiated glug! But Buddhist "non-duality" embraces "duality" and is certainly not seen as its opposite. In my own Pure Land symbolism, the undifferentiated aspect of "enlightenment" is represented by gold, and the individuality, or "suchness"/uniqueness of each, by the lotus flower. Visions of the Pure Land abound with pictures of an infinity of golden lotus flowers.....

 

There seems to me "room" in eternity for differentiation, not just a total absorption. "Eye has not seen, nor ear heard"

 

Tariki,

 

As always you raise thoughtful points. For how can we escape our thoughts when 'the lives of some around us who suffer beyond our capacity to even understand' when we are having "A GOOD INNING", as you say, when we all agree that God is Love? That is a thought that I would think has plagued many of us at some time. It would seem to me that this was the stimulus that created a myriad of myths concerning the afterlife that is still entertained by religions today.

 

Perhaps the real answer to these thoughts is found not in concepts or myths but grasped in a deeper understanding of Love, that polar opposites are indeed merely degrees on a continuum and in the acceptance of the temporal and ephemeral nature of life in this linear domain where 'this to will pass'. Or perhaps one may bypass all this intellectual stuff by identification through either self-enquiry or the practice of unconditional love to realize ones true nature.

 

I share your Buddhist embrace of "duality" and "non-duality" not being seen as opposites. To me, there can be no separation where unity exists and reality is indeed complete and without parts as is.

 

As to whether there is "room in eternity for differentiation not just a total absorption", it seems to me that whatever state it is, will be agreeable to all. laugh.gif

 

Love,

Joseph

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As others have, I am inclined to call myself agnostic on the question of an afterlife, but I do have some speculative thoughts. I was an engineer, and I still tend to think like one, even after over a decade of retirement. For me, the issue is consciousness. It either has to be durable (it's around here somewhere, even if the body is gone--and we have to find it) or replicable (it's gone but we can reproduce it). Either way, if and when my consciousness is recovered, I call that afterlife. And recovering it seems to me like and engineering problem. The problem might take millions of years to solve, though. However, if there really is a God, maybe that will speed the process up. Like I said, it's just speculation.

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I really love reading everyones thoughts on here! I believe in an afterlife and yes I also do think that we will catch up with loved ones we have lost on Earth. My Mum passed away from cancer 11 years ago and I do hold onto the hope that we will meet up again.

 

Is that wishful thinking? Maybe, but I must say that I have always believed in an afterlife ever since I was a kid. It is just what makes sense to me. Obviously anything to do with an afterlife is so far past what us humans in the now can comprehend but nevertheless it is still a topic that I am passionate about and think about.

 

I am coming to the conclusion that my beliefs and hopes are in an afterlife and I just have to live in the now and not worry about it. I want to focus on Jesus and his teachings to guide me to best person I can be and let the rest take care of itself.

 

I also think that the world we live in could be so awesome if we could all love and respect each other. I know that wont happen anytime soon but I am just saying that if humans all did work together in a considerate, loving and respectful way then as the great band Queen said "This Could Be Heaven For Everyone".

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As others have, I am inclined to call myself agnostic on the question of an afterlife, but I do have some speculative thoughts. I was an engineer, and I still tend to think like one, even after over a decade of retirement. For me, the issue is consciousness. It either has to be durable (it's around here somewhere, even if the body is gone--and we have to find it) or replicable (it's gone but we can reproduce it). Either way, if and when my consciousness is recovered, I call that afterlife. And recovering it seems to me like and engineering problem. The problem might take millions of years to solve, though. However, if there really is a God, maybe that will speed the process up. Like I said, it's just speculation.

 

This makes sense to me, Grampa. As far as we can currently tell, once the brain no longer functions, neither does consciousness. It seems that personal consciousness/the mind/awareness are linked to the physicality of the brain. At this moment in human history, once the brain is dead, we have no verifiable way of detected a consciousness that might still be lingering. This makes it difficult to prove that some kind of awareness of existence goes on after physical death.

 

Of course, human history is also replete with tales of departed souls or wandering spirits or lingering ghosts. This is fascinating subject matter (or non-matter), but, again, it is all subjective and non-verifiable by science. Religion may talk of life that goes on after physicality, and it's a nice notion, but it goes against what we currently know of how consciousness forms and is maintained. As far as we know, once the brain is gone, so is the person.

 

I would love to belief in a concrete afterlife also. But, to me, it is like believing in Santa Claus. It is a legend that we tell our children that sounds nice, but as adults we don't take Santa Claus literally because we know that it is simply not true. Well, let me rephrase that: I cannot prove that there is not a toy workshop at the North Pole with a magic sleigh and eight tiny reindeer. I suppose it is possible, but it is highly improbable. :D

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Hang on...what's that you say about Santa?

 

Seriously though, to play devil's advocate I think one could mount an argument that science, at least Quantum Physics, entertains the notion that existence continues after bodily death in the idea that 'information' can never be lost. Indeed, it was this 'law' of physics which undid Stephen Hawking and his black hole theories. Pullman, in his Dark Materials trilogy beautifully captures this notion when the dead decide to become particles and blend in with existence rather than live a sterile and hell-like existence in 'heaven'. Of course, the question is what is an afterlife? Pullman would assert that particles mixing with the breeze is an afterlife, but what we really mean maybe is a consiousness (!) and I think that is the key! So I think science would say that at least on a molecular level we do, indeed, have a continuity after death, that is not a cognisant one, it is faith which deals with the concept of a 'knowing' afterlife.

 

This, as Billmc says, comes down to faith. My faith, as I have stated, believes absolutely and whole-heartedly in an afterlife and, to be frank, a million scientists could trap me in a canyon and try and convince me otherwise and they wouldn't. Thought long and hard, had my experiences and done my searchin, happy with where I am on that. Actually I like the quote that was on TCPC recently from Dan Brown: "The more science I studied, the more I saw that physics becomes metaphysics and numbers become imaginary numbers. The farther you go into science, the mushier the ground gets. You start to say, "Oh, there is an order and a spiritual aspect to science."" I love the spiritual aspect to science! But it is not its forte.

 

Hey, Hawking now believes in parallel universes, which was once the stuff of science fiction, so maybe it is getting there! For now though, I guess I am ultimately agreeing with Bill, don't look for an knowing afterlife in science, that is for the domain of faith, and I reckon all the bases are covered.

 

Adi

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Great input, Adi, IMO!

 

Hang on...what's that you say about Santa?

 

Sorry, I didn't realize... :unsure:

 

Of course, the question is what is an afterlife? Pullman would assert that particles mixing with the breeze is an afterlife, but what we really mean maybe is a consiousness (!) and I think that is the key! So I think science would say that at least on a molecular level we do, indeed, have a continuity after death, that is not a cognisant one, it is faith which deals with the concept of a 'knowing' afterlife.

 

Yeah, that was my point. I wasn't arguing for a "non-existence" (matter can neither be created or destroyed), just for a change that I don't think supports the notion of consciousness very well. I have a gift for reiteration, not for invention. :)

 

This, as Billmc says, comes down to faith. My faith, as I have stated, believes absolutely and whole-heartedly in an afterlife and, to be frank, a million scientists could trap me in a canyon and try and convince me otherwise and they wouldn't. Thought long and hard, had my experiences and done my searchin, happy with where I am on that.

 

...and that is fine. We PC's are a diverse lot (which is a good thing) and I just feel that notions of the afterlife come more from our cultural myths than they do from Jesus' teachings.

 

The Bible says (I know I shouldn't start a statement this way on the PC forum, but WTH) that when Jesus was resurrected, he taught about the kingdom of God to his disciples for 40 days. Now, here was a guy that, according to orthodox Christian tradition, went to hell and then to heaven for 3 days. If anyone had a better scoop on hell, even better than Jonathan Edwards, it would be Jesus. If anybody had a better scoop on heaven, even better than Don Piper, it would be Jesus. But instead of talking about these two "destinations", he talks about the "kingdom of God", which, IMO, is what the earth would be like if people lived in right relationship with God and with each other.

 

Why didn't Jesus warn his disciples further about the dangers of hell during his 40 days of encore appearance? After all, all of them had recently deserted him, Peter had denied him 3 times, and Thomas was the most progressive Christian around. :D

 

Why didn't Jesus comfort his disciples further about streets of gold, mansions on hilltops, a Beamer in every driveway, and all the chocolate you can eat without gaining weight? :)

 

So I just don't see that Jesus was much focused on what we call an "afterlife." He seemed to be much more concerned about God's will being done ON EARTH than in getting people to heaven.

 

Actually I like the quote that was on TCPC recently from Dan Brown: "The more science I studied, the more I saw that physics becomes metaphysics and numbers become imaginary numbers. The farther you go into science, the mushier the ground gets. You start to say, "Oh, there is an order and a spiritual aspect to science."" I love the spiritual aspect to science! But it is not its forte.

 

Understood. Science needs to remain humble and teachable. In fact, one of the benefits of being a PC is that we have the freedom to embrace both new science and new religious thought/concepts. I just don't find the notion of an afterlife as punishment/reward to be tenable or profitable for me. It has too many hurdles for me to jump through. And I dare to think, as a PC, that Jesus, being raised in Judaism, may have been wrong about some of his notions about the afterlife. (Offstage: "Get a rope!")

 

This is why I am an agnostic about this subject. I simply don't know. Even the Bible is not monolithic on the subject. But I'll tell you what, if I kick off before anybody else here on the forum and there is anyway for me to get back here to let you know what REALLY lies ahead, I'll try to do so. :)

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Agree with everything you have said here Bill. Tony Campolo says there are two thousand scriptures relating to helping the poor, and that it is that which Jesus wanted us to focus on and not, in Tony's words, "Pie in the sky when you die by and by". So you will have no arguments from me that Jesus wanted us to concentrate on 'earth as it is in heaven'. And I think the default position on this kind of thing which is, and importantly is MEANT to be, beyond human cognisance, should be an agnostic one. I guess my point is just that, do your searching, do your questioning, seek differing points of view and then formulate your own framework in which you feel comfortable about the afterlife. You are right, this is something that is completely speculative, but I don't think we should be bound by scientific method in dealing with it. I guess, for a soundbite, This is about belief, not bunson burners!

 

Still in shock about Santa mate! So all those letters?

 

Adi

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Guest billmc

Still in shock about Santa mate! So all those letters?

 

Hey, as long as your belief in Santa doesn't conflict with the 8 Points, we should be okay, right? Right?

 

:lol:

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  • 1 month later...

I love how people try to prove an afterlife by near death experiences. I would propose that the blinding light is your true nature and of all, as a spaciousness. It's like how western mystics tend to experience God's presence as outside of them. They cannot believe that it is actually their own presence. Again supposedly.

If there is some sort of reincarnation, it would be simultaneous, for time and space are one and the individual is of the dynamic system of existence, so it wouldn't be like an individual existence being reincarnated. God, I feel dirty speaking in spiritual abstractions!

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I wholeheartedly believe that there is an afterlife. I dont have any evidence of this ofcourse but my heart tells me that it is truth so I will run with that. What do you guys believe?

 

I believe there are many paths to eternal life and that it does not have to be through Jesus. Basically I think if you are true to yourself then you will be on your own path to eternity. Due to all our individual life experiences, our upbringings, our own individual reasoning and our own minds and hearts there is no way I could believe there is only one way to God!

 

I look forward to all your comments.

 

Like you, I believe in an afterlife.

I believe there is Heaven and Hell for this reason: If there were neither, if heaven were attainable regardless the individual's faith, if everyone has their own path, or if only oblivion of the individual soul is at the end, then likewise, neither good nor evil would exist. It just wouldn't really matter whether we set ourselves off with explosives killing a diner full of people, or fed the hungry.

But since it is observed by man that some behavior is good and some bad, the belief in Heaven and Hell is by reason- inescapable.

 

God's grace,

davidk

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Like you, I believe in an afterlife.

I believe there is Heaven and Hell for this reason: If there were neither, if heaven were attainable regardless the individual's faith, if everyone has their own path, or if only oblivion of the individual soul is at the end, then likewise, neither good nor evil would exist. It just wouldn't really matter whether we set ourselves off with explosives killing a diner full of people, or fed the hungry.

But since it is observed by man that some behavior is good and some bad, the belief in Heaven and Hell is by reason- inescapable.

 

God's grace,

davidk

 

 

So the only reason not to commit mass homicide is because of the threat of hell? And likewise, the only reason to feed the hungry is to get to heaven? I would hope that there is more to morality, and life, than that. But if true, then there is no goodness for its own sake, and the ends do justify the means, since without an afterlife 'neither good nor evil would exist'.

Now I know this isn't exactly what you had in mind, but this is the conclusion that this thinking leads me to. In my understanding it is also the same reasoning that led the ancient Hebrews to see material prosperity as a sign of good-standing with God, and disease and poverty as God's punishment for sin (if not in that person's life, then the lives of his or her parents). Every deed in this life must be rewarded or punished - why would the world that God oversees be any other way? This worldview became less and less tenable as time went on, but still even in Jesus day there were Jews who were not convinced of 'new' ideas (i.e. afterlife).

The old view lost popularity after the reality that 'that's not the way the world works' sunk in. The afterlife seemed the only way to preserve the essence of the old view while attempting to account for the apparent discrepancy between belief and reality.

 

Peace to you,

Mike

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