Who Is Jesus And What Does He Mean To You?

[Jay Tee]

Point 1: Have found an approach to God through the life and teachings of Jesus.

 

Point 2: Find more grace in the search for understanding than we do in dogmatic certainty more value in questioning than in absolutes.

 

I often heard that the value and meaning is in the journey more than the destination. Questioning to me is the journey, the means by which growth and depth can occur. Yet the destination, the answers, may only be milestones or stepping stones along the way, not yet the final answer. So, yes, questioning and seeking "what Jesus means to me, if he has special powers, etc." may have value in itself and be just what the doctor order.

 

Which leads to another thought: perhaps this is the moving of the Spirit or of God to start a particular journey to perhaps find a particular answer or perhaps to teach him a certain process of thinking or exploration.

 

The clouds may be ignorance which can be blown away by the winds of questioning and seeking.

 

So, my concluding thought? Seek, and ye shall find - maybe not the answer you are searching for, but perhaps some valuable treasure along the way, perhaps beside the rock you sit upon to reast, perhaps in the journey itself. And if you do find an answer, my thought is hold to it with conviction, but tentatively, prepared to revise or discard it should evidence or revelation gives reason to do so.

 

In essence, search but don't beat yourself up doing so, and don't stop searching, even if you think you have found an answer. More importantly, be open to God coming to you instead of you just coming to him.

 

(wow, I used as many words as others and have said about 1/10th of what they said. Gotta work on that - depth or brevity, preferrably both.)

[spiritseeker]

Okay spiritseeker I think I understand why you want to know. Perhaps not having a answer you do feel a bit disoriented. After all you are venturing into uncharted waters and even though there are others here to support you, the journey is one each must go on and experience for oneself alone.

 

 

This is only my view on the issue to be taken lightly. The mind itself to me seems to feed on answers which just opens up more questions. To me it is ever seeking and never finding rest. ie: Say for example you settle down to the belief that Jesus has "special powers" that you don't have. What do you now have? Just another belief or piece to the puzzle that may or may not be true and if it is an incorrect one than later the building will collapse again. What am I proposing? I am saying that perhaps there is no need to have a position either way. If you never met Jesus in person, or God has not given you personal revelation of the answer, then why even struggle for an answer that is just another mind concept not to any edification of the Spirit?

 

I really do understand where you are coming from Joseph. I get frustrated with not getting answers and most the time I can continue on and study and just see where God takes me. I however cannot do that with Jesus. Inside I feel that Jesus is my connection to God and that truly feels great but it also gives me great pain because I need to figure out what I believe. As you said Joseph, I dont know if any answer will give me satisfaction or maybe it will just provide me with more questions. All I do know is that I am really hurting inside because I want a relationship with God and Jesus that I can be proud of. I dont feel like I can do that when I dont even know who Jesus is. I am scared that I will never find out because all I do is read and study but once again I always come back to realising that there is no concrete evidence that will satisfy me.

 

What I do know is that I am feeling like I have found a home here in TCPC and at this point in my journey I am really happy and honoured to be here with you all!

 

 

In my view, you cannot sink for the One that has started your exploration shall and is surely able to finish it with your cooperation through this concept of time.

 

That is really a beautiful message Joseph. Thank you so much for sharing it.

[spiritseeker]

Point 1: Have found an approach to God through the life and teachings of Jesus.

 

Point 2: Find more grace in the search for understanding than we do in dogmatic certainty – more value in questioning than in absolutes.

 

Hi Jay Tee. Thanks for discussing this with me as well. When I look at Point 1 my mind says " perfect I dont need to know who Jesus is exactly" but my heart doesn't accept that. My heart/spirit says " you need to know more to satisfy my thirst of who Jesus is."

 

Sometimes I feel like I have 2 voices. 1 will say "just put all your faith in Jesus. Love him, follow him and you cant go wrong." The other voice says "This is just too hard. You will never find any answers so just move on and live your life". I do know 100% that I would never give up on God as he means way too much to me and I do have the evidence that satisfies my spirit to believe in God. For example: The Universe, Nature, Creation, All of our emotions and most of all our spirituality.

 

So, my concluding thought? Seek, and ye shall find - maybe not the answer you are searching for, but perhaps some valuable treasure along the way, perhaps beside the rock you sit upon to reast, perhaps in the journey itself. And if you do find an answer, my thought is hold to it with conviction, but tentatively, prepared to revise or discard it should evidence or revelation gives reason to do so.

 

In essence, search but don't beat yourself up doing so, and don't stop searching, even if you think you have found an answer.

 

Some very wise words spoken there Jay Tee. I am very proud of you! As I said my spirit would never let me stop searching but I do want to find a rock to sit on and rest and just enjoy the wonders of life here on Earth!

 

More importantly, be open to God coming to you instead of you just coming to him.

 

WOW! This message has really hit me (in a good way). Maybe I am just trying way too hard and trying to force something that is unforcible. I think I have control issues and want to be in charge of everything and maybe if I do put some trust in God then a few doors may just open for me. Thanks mate!

[spiritseeker]

Hi Spiritseeker,

 

This is such a personal thing and will involve your own searching. May I recommend a book called The Meaning of Jesus, Two Versions, by Marcus Borg and N.T.Wright. You will see both perspectives laid out there and may give you some food for thought. My personal conviction is in a metaphysical Jesus, one with 'special powers', as you put it, as I believe that the limitless divine showed its face in Jesus, and also it's limitlessness, if that makes sense, to add power to the messages of Christ. But, again, such a personal take! Read, read and read again I would say! It is wonderful you are asking these questions, and right, and good, as this is how faith becomes strong. You aren't sinking mate, you are swimming towards a greater personal conviction and understanding!

 

Adi

 

Hi Adi,

 

When I can afford to I would definately love to read that book. I love what you believe personally and I really wish that I get to that belief some time. Could you please share with me how you got to believing in a metaphysical Jesus? I know this is very individual but I want to learn more about how people arrive at their own beliefs. Thanks for your encouragement mate. I really do feel like part of the family here.

[Adi Gibb]

Hi Spiritseeker,

 

No probs, would be more than happy to share my journey which is, of course, ongoing!

 

When I was an undergraduate I was spirtual but certainly not religious, in any way, and quite anti-Christianity, which I took to be the Church at the time. An Irish tutor at Uni, when I was doing a subject on comparative religions, told me that we inherit certain views, rose-coloured glasses, from our culture, our parents etc. And we need to take them off, crush them underfoot, and build our own, which won't be as pretty or as comfortable, but they will be strong! That is what I started to do. Then I had a realisation, through a thought exercise in a Philosophy course that I won't bore you with, that I believed in a force and a power beyond human cognisance. Thus I realised I was deep down a theist.

 

Many years later, after exploring almost all the major religions, including paganism, I attended the first of three Alpha courses I would go to, encouraged by a Christian friend of mine. The Rector at the Church this was held at was amazing. Through his actions, not his words, I realised he was showing me what 'real' christianity was, and I liked it! Two other things happened over the course of these three Alpha courses. Firstly, I had what I call an 'Indiana Jones' moment. You know that part in the Last Crusade when he has to take that leap of faith? I had been beating my head on an intellectual brick wall about the metaphysical side of Christ, particularly the resurrection. Somebody said to me at this Alpha night, 'Tell me, do you WANT to believe in it?'. I thought about it and I realised I did. So I took a leap of faith, and continued my questioning with an open mind, and a willingness to accept something beyond the laws of nature, and suddenly I had certainty! I know that sounds backwards, but that's how it happened for me. I also, around this time, found a painting called 'The Light of the World', by Holman Hunt. In this painting Jesus is holding a lantern in a darkened world and is knocking on a door. The door is overgrown with weeds and vines. Somebody said to Holman Hunt, "You made a mistake, the handle of the door is missing, Jesus can't come through!". To which he replied, "Yes he can, the door just has to open from the inside!" I realised I hadn't opened that door, and that it wasn't about me 'finding' Jesus, he was there knocking, I just had to let him in.

 

All of these things, plus my ongoing belief in God as a 'Limitless Divine', has led me to this point.

 

This is just my story, of course, but I hope it helps.

 

Adi

[rivanna]

Spiritseeker,

 

I agree with what others have suggested, you can see Jesus as the human face of God, without tormenting yourself as to whether he had the same powers. Reading books like Borg/Wright, Spong, etc will help you sort out your beliefs. You don’t need to confront every issue about the historical Jesus--the important thing is to trust in his presence, know you can relate to him. Feel free to pick and choose the elements that ring true for you. Everyone does create their own version, whether they are aware of it or not. The gospels were left inconsistent with each other, intentionally--showing different approaches are not only acceptable but necessary.

 

One inconsistency that intrigues me is the conflict between the nature miracles like walking on water, multiplying the loaves and fish etc; and the opening scene of Jesus’ ministry. That kind of messiah is exactly the identity he rejected during his 40 days in the desert, refusing to turn stones into bread or jump off a cliff to prove his immortality. So you could say this introduction invites us to view some stories as myth, or as part real, part poetic exaggeration. It’s OK to let some mystery remain.

 

To me, whether all the supernatural events actually happened is not so essential as knowing that Jesus made an incredibly strong impression on people. Perhaps the one undisputed truth was Jesus’ ability to heal individuals, physically and psychologically. His words and actions transformed people’s lives for the better. To me, that seems like the core of what has been kept alive all these centuries, the basis for faith.

Hope you find more peace of mind.

[Mike]

Hi Spiritseeker,

 

Adi’s story about his experience with the painting brought to mind my own experience standing before some stained glass windows at my church. There is a picture of Jesus as the Good Shepherd, another of the empty tomb guarded by two angels. These paintings are not realistic, they are more impressionist...suggestive, they appeal to both the conscious and unconscious mind. I stood before them about a year ago ago wondering if Christianity really had any relevance to me. I realized a while before then that there is nothing out there in the world of scholarship or apologetics that could possibly satisfy the mind’s desire for intellectual certainty. The mind can seek and not truly know what it is after, and that is why it is important to search and be open to the unexpected places it may lead, because the truth really sought may not be the truth one has in mind as the object of his search. 'Seek and you shall find', yes, but what you find is not always what you sought, perhaps God knows what you're really after and it's not what you think, who can say? Do any of us actually know what we want and what would satisfy us ultimately?

 

Anyway, having seen no intellectual certainty about such matters, I think perhaps 'religious truth' would have to operate according to a different mode of understanding. (We should probably not bring what is more-or-less the scientific method with us to church.) The stained glass paintings brought to my heart and mind a living reality not dependent on the historical/critical method. Like the use of icons in the Orthodox church, they turn the mind to metaphysical truth, not historical reconstruction. Looking into the past for Jesus, or for the ’truth’ about Jesus, for me is to miss the point and could not possibly satisfy me at this point. The Christian faith, after all, emphatically states that Jesus did not stay dead. And if Jesus is not a matter of the accidents of history, is not a relic of the past to be analyzed, then he is a matter of metaphysical truth. The past is but a memory, but Jesus must remain a living reality for the church. Like I said before, I’m not very much concerned about historical reconstructions and what ‘really happened’ then. The church, right from its beginnings in the book of acts, relied not on reconstructions or objective evidence but their own subjective experiences of what they understood to be the spirit of Jesus. Who can really say who Jesus was? But ‘who Jesus was’ is not what I find in the stained glass windows - I see ‘who Jesus is.’

[irreverance]

I'm glad Mike brought up icons. The metaphor of an icon is (from what I can tell) becoming a popular one for Jesus. His person and work as recorded in narrative is an icon through which we meditate upon the divine and its calling in our lives. Of course, the metaphor falls short in a variety of different ways. But metaphors aren't meant to be exhaustive. If they were, they wouldn't be metaphors, now would they?

 

Regarding the struggle to understand, when I go through rough theological periods and can't seem to wrap my mind around my experience or what I believe, an image that helps me is that of infant baptism. In baptism, through the symbol of water, we declare that God's claiming power over us is not dependent upon whether we "get it" or not. God's grace, God's presence, is there for us even in the midst of confusion, especially when it's the confusion that inevitably comes with spiritual growth (which as we all know sucks, until we emerge from the other end of the tunnel). Grace make plenty of room for us to bumble around securely in the playpen that is this world.

[Mike]

I'm glad Mike brought up icons. The metaphor of an icon is (from what I can tell) becoming a popular one for Jesus. His person and work as recorded in narrative is an icon through which we meditate upon the divine and its calling in our lives. Of course, the metaphor falls short in a variety of different ways. But metaphors aren't meant to be exhaustive. If they were, they wouldn't be metaphors, now would they?

 

Regarding the struggle to understand, when I go through rough theological periods and can't seem to wrap my mind around my experience or what I believe, an image that helps me is that of infant baptism. In baptism, through the symbol of water, we declare that God's claiming power over us is not dependent upon whether we "get it" or not. God's grace, God's presence, is there for us even in the midst of confusion, especially when it's the confusion that inevitably comes with spiritual growth (which as we all know sucks, until we emerge from the other end of the tunnel). Grace make plenty of room for us to bumble around securely in the playpen that is this world.

 

I wasn't aware of the 'icon-metaphor' so it hadn't solidified in my mind as such, but now that you have pointed it out I must confess that it comes very close to my own approach to Christ. Thanks for your input.

 

Peace to you,

Mike

[Jay Tee]

 

One inconsistency that intrigues me is the conflict between the nature miracles like walking on water, multiplying the loaves and fish etc; and the opening scene of Jesus’ ministry. That kind of messiah is exactly the identity he rejected during his 40 days in the desert, refusing to turn stones into bread or jump off a cliff to prove his immortality. So you could say this introduction invites us to view some stories as myth, or as part real, part poetic exaggeration. It’s OK to let some mystery remain.

 

To me, whether all the supernatural events actually happened is not so essential as knowing that Jesus made an incredibly strong impression on people. Perhaps the one undisputed truth was Jesus’ ability to heal individuals, physically and psychologically. His words and actions transformed people’s lives for the better. To me, that seems like the core of what has been kept alive all these centuries, the basis for faith.

Hope you find more peace of mind.

 

This may be a slight degression but I think it is related enough to warrent inclusion.

 

The inconsistency between his nature miracles and his 40 days in the desert I don't see as inconsistency. I do them as actually happening (at least the possibility that could legitimately happen) but with a different focus. One was the focus of glorifying God, the other of giving in the Satan. An action or inaction is right or wrong quite often based upon the motivation. This cn easily lead into other areas of discussion. If there are related posts elsewhere please point me in that direction.

 

As far as the one undeniable truth was Jesus' ability to heal individuals, yes, that is Jesus and is part of what Jesus means to me. I do believe he can and sometimes does heal physically, mentally, emotionally, spiritually. I do believe the power is out there if we comply with the way things are to be, but sometimes evil just happens. Read Job. In the end, we may not understand why good happens to bad people or bad happens to good people, but "be still and now that I am God" seems like the way to go.

 

Did I get too far off track? Hope not.

[Jay Tee]

In response to Mike who poste yesterday at 11:04am

 

Carl Sagan in Contact has one of the characters, a religous spiritual dude I think it was, say something like science and religion are in search of the same thing, Truth, but in different ways.

 

Too many people rely on ration means to try to apprehend the non-rational. Non-rational does not mean irrational, as if that is always a good thing. Rationally speaking, there is no reason to love an individual who cries all the time, can't take care of herself, and keeps waking you up in the middle of the night because she has needs. Yet, when my daughter was born, I loved her nontheless, for nonrational reasons, for emotional ones. It is through that giving of unconditional love that I started to understand God's unconditional love me and therefore to start to accept it. Rational means didn't serve me well, they were stumbling blocks. An unexpected pregnancy and a wonderful gift from God changed that in nonrational means.

 

The scientific method is excellent for things that are observable, measurable, can be subjected to experiments that have reliability and validity, but are crap for anything that cannot be directly observed on a regular base, can not be objectively measured, can not be replicated or tested in a labatory. Things like God and spirituallity and religion and Jesus, for example. That requires other methods.

[Jay Tee]

 

God's grace, God's presence, is there for us even in the midst of confusion, especially when it's the confusion that inevitably comes with spiritual growth (which as we all know sucks, until we emerge from the other end of the tunnel). Grace make plenty of room for us to bumble around securely in the playpen that is this world.

 

Well, I am not so certain about the securely part of the above remark, but the playpen of this world could include a live-in relationship that went way far south (apologies to my Southern Dad), that sucked, that was the long dark tea time of my soul, that revealed to me that well, not all sins were hers, that not all of my intentions were noble, and yet, produced, after some counselling and lots of questioning God, which did included accusations and blaming of Him, a wonderful daughter that is teaching me a lot more about maturity and growing up which really helps in religious and spiritual matters. It is because of her that we are attending church more often. It is because of her that I have to come up with some sort of answers to whys. It is because of her that I learn what a healthy, God-filled relationship is like.

 

Two things come straight to mind about this.

 

The mother of my child was going to jump state with her "friend" and not tell me where she was going. I could do nothing about it until well after the fact. And even then things were limited. I struggled with this for a long time until I realized that no matter how well I could take care of daughter, God can and will take better care of her, and that no matter how much I love my daughter, God loves her (and me) even more. I found peace then, but still suffered, but still hurt, but still felt anxiety, but I still felt at peace that things would be alright, but I still found solace in God's grace.

 

Mom had trouble accepting Jesus, who is on high according to her emotional frame of mind, coming down to earth. She could not accept he did it out of love, that He would leave Heaven for her. She felt guilty that Jesus had to do it for her. I believe I said something along the lines that Jesus did not have to, that he wanted to, that he wasn't coming to stay, but to meet her halfway so that he could bring her up to Heaven with him. I'm not sure how that worked out in her mind but years later, when she was told she had less than a year to live due to cancer, we talked (after lots of crying) and she said:

 

She brightened up. "If I live, I'm the Lord's"

She had a look of a new revelation. "If I die, I'm the Lord's."

She brightened up again. "Either way, I'm the Lord's."

Then she had a look of acceptance and exasperation. "But I don't want to die."

She had accepted her mortality and yet did not deny her humanity. We both learned something that day, and came to terms.

 

To her, as to me, Jesus is God and God is Jesus. Don't know how that works, but I do find biblical support for it.

 

So, Grace abounds - and what does Jesus mean to me? I shared some more of what Jesus means to me. Thanks for asking.

[tsisqua]

Hello, and this is also my first post outside of the welcome board.

 

This is only my own view, and I am so at peace with it:

The Jesus of history, for me, is very important. The gospels purport to

be a reconstruction of an orally transmitted history. This means that there

is a great amount of room for literary liscense on the part of first century believers.

This is not to say that his words and works as we have them in the bible are falsifications, but rather show what early followers had come to believe about him.

 

However, some of the parables and one-liners recorded in the gospels could have only one source, and that is Jesus himself. The admonition to love one's enemies is quite unique to wisdom teaching in the world. A paradox is implied: he who loves his enemies truly has none. To love one's neighbor

has many paralells, particularly in Jewish tradition. But to love one's enemies is to be like God

who gives even the ungodly and wicked the blessings of his universe.

 

That early christians believed in a ressurection is indisputable; they willingly died

horrible deaths at the hands of Domition and Nero for that belief. To say that there is

no external evidence for Jesus' existence is a falsehood. Granted, the works of Josephus

has probably been tampered with, but what do you do with Cornelius Tacitus who would indeed

have had access to first century documents relating to Jesus' execution as he related it?

Tacitus was certainly no friend of christianity. With all this available history, plus

the writings of Pliny (the younger), a historical Jesus is all but a certainty. That his

pupils would have remembered the core of his teachings is just as likely, seeing

the zeal they exhibited for him.

 

"Blessed are the poor . . . "

 

Are you poor? Then congratulations are in order: You are residents of the Kingdom!

 

The parables exhibit a Jesus who knew God experientially . . . a teacher who placed

equal value on societies marginalzed citizens. A jesus who called us his brothers

and sisters. A Jesus who we should strive to be like inasmuch as possible, with God's help.

 

And yes, a human representation of God's divinity and love.

 

Here's hoping that, along with the other most beautiful, thoughtful and

caring replies, perhaps I may have brought an additional aspect of

Jesus to help you along with your search.

 

My prayer is that you continue to find him precious to

your soul.

 

In His Love,

Tsisqua

[Mike]

Hello, Tsisqua

 

That early christians believed in a ressurection is indisputable; they willingly died

horrible deaths at the hands of Domition and Nero for that belief. To say that there is

no external evidence for Jesus' existence is a falsehood. Granted, the works of Josephus

has probably been tampered with, but what do you do with Cornelius Tacitus who would indeed

have had access to first century documents relating to Jesus' execution as he related it?

Tacitus was certainly no friend of christianity. With all this available history, plus

the writings of Pliny (the younger), a historical Jesus is all but a certainty. That his

pupils would have remembered the core of his teachings is just as likely, seeing

the zeal they exhibited for him.

 

I think there are few scholars who would argue that there was no historical Jesus. There may be many who make this claim, but it is not a claim that I can take seriously. I tend to also attribute the 'zeal' to Pentecost - or, at least the experiences of the early church typified by Pentecost. Paul was not a pupil of Jesus, in fact he did not have any connection to Jesus at all apart from his experience of what he perceived to be the Spirit of Jesus, yet his zeal was nonetheless one he carried to his death.

 

I think it is appropriate to say that the New Testament is to a degree rooted in historical memory, yet it is equally important to note that zeal for Jesus did not only belong - did not belong even primarily - to the people who had personally known him, since those who had known him personally were just a handful and those who have followed him to the grave are as the stars of heaven. For good or ill, Jesus is now out of their hands and belonging to us. That is why I do not consider historical reconstructions to have primary importance for the church (although we do learn important things from them, I do not follow any thinking that would force me to believe such matters are ultimately important), for while we can be quite certain that Jesus did exist, it is by nature a debate about what actually goes back to him, and it is too much of a leap to go from 'Jesus the historical figure' to the 'Jesus of Christology' based on the historical-critical method alone. If the truth of Jesus were truly about, or dependent upon historical proofs, eyewitnesses, and reconstructions, then, to me, matters are especially uncertain for those of us who are 2,000+ years removed from the events in question (and perhaps for most everybody who never personally met Jesus). For me there is a problem in the very approach because too much weight is placed on intellectual pursuits and speculation rather than religious/spiritual realities. It is not that there is anything wrong with such pursuits, but when it comes to the heart of one's faith/religious experience, they can become counterproductive to the very intent of religious truth, in my experience. I mean this in the sense that 'religious truth' ought to be about truth that is accessible to the individual, and I do not see the ultimate end of being occupied by questions whose answers are ultimately unavailable, perhaps even in principle.

 

Anyway, your post was well written and I appreciate it. I do not by this post mean to challenge you, and I do not presume or imply that you are arguing for what I have been writing against. This has simply been my reaction to what you have written, for whatever it may be worth. Thanks for sharing your thoughts...

 

The parables exhibit a Jesus who knew God experientially . . . a teacher who placed

equal value on societies marginalzed citizens. A jesus who called us his brothers

and sisters. A Jesus who we should strive to be like inasmuch as possible, with God's help.

 

And yes, a human representation of God's divinity and love.

 

Here's hoping that, along with the other most beautiful, thoughtful and

caring replies, perhaps I may have brought an additional aspect of

Jesus to help you along with your search.

 

My prayer is that you continue to find him precious to

your soul.

 

...they exhibit a genuine Christian spirit.

 

Peace to you,

Mike

[Mike]

Hi Jay Tee,

 

In response to Mike who poste yesterday at 11:04am

 

Carl Sagan in Contact has one of the characters, a religous spiritual dude I think it was, say something like science and religion are in search of the same thing, Truth, but in different ways.

 

Too many people rely on ration means to try to apprehend the non-rational. Non-rational does not mean irrational, as if that is always a good thing. Rationally speaking, there is no reason to love an individual who cries all the time, can't take care of herself, and keeps waking you up in the middle of the night because she has needs. Yet, when my daughter was born, I loved her nontheless, for nonrational reasons, for emotional ones. It is through that giving of unconditional love that I started to understand God's unconditional love me and therefore to start to accept it. Rational means didn't serve me well, they were stumbling blocks. An unexpected pregnancy and a wonderful gift from God changed that in nonrational means.

 

The scientific method is excellent for things that are observable, measurable, can be subjected to experiments that have reliability and validity, but are crap for anything that cannot be directly observed on a regular base, can not be objectively measured, can not be replicated or tested in a labatory. Things like God and spirituallity and religion and Jesus, for example. That requires other methods.

 

I wholeheartedly agree, I see science as good and true for the kinds of questions it asks, but when it comes seeking spiritual wisdom, science is incapable of supplying it. That's just the way things are - no system or methodology is intrinsically complete unto itself, there is always room in reality for more, for a different approach, a different way of relating. Kung in his book "The Beginning of All Things" sums it up quite nicely when he reports that even Steven Hawking had to admit that reality cannot exhausted by any finite string of axioms, such are the limitations of logic. There goes the 'theory of everything.'

 

Well, I am not so certain about the securely part of the above remark, but the playpen of this world could include a live-in relationship that went way far south (apologies to my Southern Dad), that sucked, that was the long dark tea time of my soul, that revealed to me that well, not all sins were hers, that not all of my intentions were noble, and yet, produced, after some counselling and lots of questioning God, which did included accusations and blaming of Him, a wonderful daughter that is teaching me a lot more about maturity and growing up which really helps in religious and spiritual matters. It is because of her that we are attending church more often. It is because of her that I have to come up with some sort of answers to whys. It is because of her that I learn what a healthy, God-filled relationship is like.

 

Two things come straight to mind about this.

 

The mother of my child was going to jump state with her "friend" and not tell me where she was going. I could do nothing about it until well after the fact. And even then things were limited. I struggled with this for a long time until I realized that no matter how well I could take care of daughter, God can and will take better care of her, and that no matter how much I love my daughter, God loves her (and me) even more. I found peace then, but still suffered, but still hurt, but still felt anxiety, but I still felt at peace that things would be alright, but I still found solace in God's grace.

 

Mom had trouble accepting Jesus, who is on high according to her emotional frame of mind, coming down to earth. She could not accept he did it out of love, that He would leave Heaven for her. She felt guilty that Jesus had to do it for her. I believe I said something along the lines that Jesus did not have to, that he wanted to, that he wasn't coming to stay, but to meet her halfway so that he could bring her up to Heaven with him. I'm not sure how that worked out in her mind but years later, when she was told she had less than a year to live due to cancer, we talked (after lots of crying) and she said:

 

She brightened up. "If I live, I'm the Lord's"

She had a look of a new revelation. "If I die, I'm the Lord's."

She brightened up again. "Either way, I'm the Lord's."

Then she had a look of acceptance and exasperation. "But I don't want to die."

She had accepted her mortality and yet did not deny her humanity. We both learned something that day, and came to terms.

 

To her, as to me, Jesus is God and God is Jesus. Don't know how that works, but I do find biblical support for it.

 

So, Grace abounds - and what does Jesus mean to me? I shared some more of what Jesus means to me. Thanks for asking.

 

Thanks for sharing this it was quite powerful.

 

 

Peace to you,

Mike

[rivanna]

JayTee made a good point about the different contexts of the nature miracles and the dialogue with Satan. I still think Jesus was defining the way he would carry out his ministry, in the desert scene. He was choosing the role of the suffering servant, or the son of man, rather than the conquering hero messiah that was expected.

 

Tsisqua’s point about Jesus reaching out to the marginalized is so true. We all feel marginalized in one way or another.

 

Spiritseeker seemed to be asking whether Jesus had supernatural powers or not. Maybe the implied question is, can people relate/pray to Jesus if they don’t think he was resurrected? For me, that had to be real in my mind before I felt Christ was accessible; but it doesn’t seem necessary for others. Not sure if this interprets your question correctly.

 

You say “I am really hurting inside because I want a relationship with God and Jesus that I can be proud of.” But pride has nothing to do with it. You can have the spiritual connection and you can continue the intellectual reading-- no contradiction. It seems to me that your heartfelt longing will take you beyond any fear that you must study enough to feel justified. A small leap of faith is involved rather than achieving absolute certainty. I think it comes down to how strong your desire is. If you really need Jesus to be alive and present for you, he will be.

[spiritseeker]

Thanks for all the replies everyone. You have definately got me thinking. I was thinking how some people on here relate to a certain picture that means something to them and it shows them what Jesus is about. I realised that I do have something like that myself.

 

For me it is music. One group in particular really get me feeling spiritually in touch with Jesus. They are Casting Crowns. Whenever I listen to them I just feel like Jesus is with me and that everything is ok. It is truly a wonderful feeling.

[spiritseeker]

I must also add that a few people have spoken about "the leap of faith". I really struggle with that and I know there must be something holding me back but I dont know exactly what. Even a small leap of faith is big to me because if I cant understand something then it is hard to take a leap of faith and just say I believe.

 

It is very hard to explain but my heart is telling me to go for it and leap but my head is saying no. Even though my head is saying no to taking a leap I do 100% believe in God and Jesus. Sorry it this is all confusing but it is really hard to try and explain how I am feeling over the computer.

[Adi Gibb]

Hi again Spiritseeker,

 

Your issues remind me once again how ridiculous it is for people to think that faith is easy. Faith is hard, and that leap of faith can be the hardest thing to do! Why? Because of the fear that your leap will send you spiralling into nothingness, that you will step off that cliff and hurtle into the abyss. But only by stepping off that cliff sometimes can you fly! Have a look at this link, its that section of the Indiana Jones movie I was talking about, and it SO describes the act of faith perfectly. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C-c8_OFwZoY

 

All I can say Spiritseeker is I know where you are coming from, because I have been there myself. When, not if, you do make that leap, I can tell you there is something there waiting to lift you up! To paraphrase Seinfeld: It's real...and it's spectacular!

 

Adi

[Mike]

Spiritseeker,

 

I think the ability or necessity to make a leap of faith may depend both on the context and the psychological/spiritual disposition of the individual. While I do not wish to contradict Adi, I would simply provide another point of view. Not everyone is the same, and as far as leaps of faith are concerned, I'm not sure I have ever made one or that the idea is useful to me personally, in my own life. Now, perhaps I have made 'leaps of faith' in the sense of increments, steps, jumps, but I can't think of any giant plunges I have ever made, especially in the sense of never being the same afterward. My religious experience has been a gradual opening up to the divine, with some moments of relative abandon, and still a long, long way to go. Perhaps in the future I may experience some great leap, who knows?

 

But also perhaps it is best not to create expectations for oneself when it may not be clear what those expectations really mean. Eastern religions would tell you that you simply have to learn to be who you are and not try to be something else. If there is any leap that I think most everybody needs to take, it is simply the leap to trust in God, or the way things are, to say 'Thy will be done.' But that isn't a matter of belief really, but facing the end of oneself - facing reality. I still have problems with doing that. Perhaps people like myself - I mean, people with a similar psychological constitution - must leap many times, because I find myself running back to familiar, comforting territory. Not that I do not think the leaps of faith that Adi speaks of are valid, I think they're great, and well attested to in the history of religion and spirituality. They demonstrate an endowment of great grace.

 

How can I begin to talk about anybody else when I do not know my own self? My only advice is simply to continue where you are led but not to get caught up in your own expectations of what you think you ought to be, or what you think you ought to experience. Whatever your experience, God is still a mystery, and the deeper one's experience, the less is known and the less there is to convey.

 

Hope that made some sense.

Peace to you,

Mike

[Adi Gibb]

G'Day Mike,

 

I agree with everything you say. My grandparents were very religious folk but the idea of 'leaps of faith' or 'revelation' would have been anathema to them. As you say, it is an individual path we all must walk, and while I have never had a 'road to Damascus' moment, for me an initial leap of faith was necessary. I was constantly hitting intellectual brick walls when it came to my understanding of the metaphysical aspects of Jesus. I knew I wanted to believe in this aspect, but part of me just didn't feel able to surrender to the notion of transcendant things outside of human parameters. It was, to put it simply, scary! But when I took that leap, and surrendered to that notion, became open to the possibility of a limitless divine which was indeed limitless, the walls broke down, and I began my intellectual searching anew. Sounds strange but that is how it happened for me.

 

I could be wrong but I sense Spiritseeker is in a similar position to me back then. Regardless, I absolutely agree that one's faith can be slow or fast, intellectual, contemplative, practical, scientific, a myriad of possibilities, and leaps of faith are sometimes not required at all.

[rivanna]

Seeker,

 

Leap of faith was not the best choice of words-- it was a long gradual journey for me also. What I meant was, imagination is part of the process along with intellect. At least that’s how it seems to me. I agree with you about music and visual art. I enjoy seeing the different ways the gospel has been illustrated through the ages, but music has a more dynamic effect on the spirit.

[spiritseeker]

 

I could be wrong but I sense Spiritseeker is in a similar position to me back then. Regardless, I absolutely agree that one's faith can be slow or fast, intellectual, contemplative, practical, scientific, a myriad of possibilities, and leaps of faith are sometimes not required at all.

 

 

You are exactly right Adi. I feel like you have a grasp on exactly where I am at but at this point on my journey I just cannot take a leap of faith as it doesnt seem right but on the other hand I am not happy spiritually and I do know that I need more in my relationship with Jesus/God.

 

I admire that you were able to take a leap Adi but I cant picture that for myself. I just feel like I have hit a dead end.

[Mike]

G'Day Mike,

 

I agree with everything you say. My grandparents were very religious folk but the idea of 'leaps of faith' or 'revelation' would have been anathema to them. As you say, it is an individual path we all must walk, and while I have never had a 'road to Damascus' moment, for me an initial leap of faith was necessary. I was constantly hitting intellectual brick walls when it came to my understanding of the metaphysical aspects of Jesus. I knew I wanted to believe in this aspect, but part of me just didn't feel able to surrender to the notion of transcendant things outside of human parameters. It was, to put it simply, scary! But when I took that leap, and surrendered to that notion, became open to the possibility of a limitless divine which was indeed limitless, the walls broke down, and I began my intellectual searching anew. Sounds strange but that is how it happened for me.

 

I could be wrong but I sense Spiritseeker is in a similar position to me back then. Regardless, I absolutely agree that one's faith can be slow or fast, intellectual, contemplative, practical, scientific, a myriad of possibilities, and leaps of faith are sometimes not required at all.

 

Hi Adi,

As I suspected we are in no disagreement. That is why I wanted to make clear I wasn't trying to contradict or challenge your perspective, since your path and my path both are valid approaches to the Divine. Like I said, I cannot really talk for or about anyone else, so I simply wanted to provide another point of view.

 

 

I just feel like I have hit a dead end.

 

Hi Spiritseeker. You are in my thoughts. Like Job we all must face dark times spiritually. By darkness I mean ambiguity, unknowing, doubt. It's strange that God never really answered any of Job's objections - Job just stared into the whirlwind, felt the mystery of God in his bones, you might say. In my view only God is absolute, and whatever we are facing does not have the final say on our lives or the meaning of our lives. This dead end you feel has no intrinsic existence. Dead ends can tell us something about ourselves, implore us to look deeper, or to just let go. Things can change and will change; this can happen quickly or slowly. I'm a slow mover myself. I am learning to just sit and breathe.

 

Peace to you,

Mike

[DHAWLIA]

I am new to this website and I would really love to hear everyones beliefs on who Jesus is and what he means to you? Was he just a great leader of people but not the son of God? Did Jesus even exist? Is Jesus the son of God?

 

I have walked down many different paths to get here and I do believe in Jesus but I need to learn more to decide on what I believe about him. I know that I love him and he has special meaning to me but to what extent I dont know. I would love to hear all your beliefs and experiences on how you got to where you are.

 

Can anyone recommend some good books that can help me in my quest to learn more aout Jesus?

 

Thanks!

 

Hey, spiritseeker. All I can do is offer my personal view of Jesus, what He did, and what He means to me. This will be a large post, as my views need a bit of explanation to be properly conveyed. In short, Jesus is the one who has offered me life. Not just eternal, but a very real quickening in this life as well (At least in heart). I was challenged with a question the other day about God being just when it came to "punishing" an innocent man, and letting the guilty off the hook. It made me dig deep into my personal beliefs, so I wrote down my view of Christ and what He did for us, and how we are "saved" by Him. I'll try to explain exactly where I'm coming from in the following text.

 

"God created all things, just as He knows the beginning from the end. It is true that all things in life are part of Gods plan, but that doesn't mean that ALL things are willed by God directly. Since we as humans have a will of our own (Part of Gods plan) He has afforded us certain freedoms, such as living life on our terms. The problem with living life on our terms is that we are quite selfish, and can be very cruel to those we share our world with.

 

Jesus comes into play in that God sent Him to show us the way, the truth, and the life. God sent Jesus to not only show us how to live, but to also defeat sin, and to defeat death itself (Which He did). He was NOT punished by God, as He was guiltless, but Jesus did bear our sins in that we scourged Him and nailed Him to the cross. He "payed" for our sins on the cross only in that He suffered because of our sins/actions (This is my current understanding).

 

God didn't punish Him, but rather He allowed Jesus to be subject to our cruelty. He did so, that Jesus would be made perfect through suffering, never giving in, and never resisting Gods perfect law, which is love. Surely, being Gods son, He could have tapped in to a power that could have prevented Him from being tortured as He was, and from dying after several hours of agony on the cross. But Jesus chose the high road. He chose to submit to Gods perfect law of love. He remained obedient to God's perfect law even amidst such suffering and cruelty.

 

It was a display of His great love for us - "Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends." Who are His friends? Those who would love others as He loved us - To have a love so strong for our fellow man that we would die for them. Which is exactly what we are called to do. We are to bury the old man, and be reborn in the Spirit.

 

God didn't punish Jesus at all. We (Mankind) forced our cruelty on Him, whereby He suffered due to our wickedness. God may have known this would happen, but it wasn't Him who did it - We did. It was God's will inasmuch as He knew that in order for us to get back to good, Jesus (His Son) had to live that perfect life of love, and defeat sin and death, which in turn made a way for all men to be reconciled to the Father.

 

God knew that Christ would be beaten, bruised, and crushed by our hands, yet it pleased God that His son was willing to go through such pain, living a perfect life of love (despite), so that all man might come to know life in Him, and be reconciled back to our Creator. I call this divine justice (Just for the Unjust).

 

The wages of sin are death. Just as Adam sinned, and we all experience the effects of his sin (Mortality) we each also experience the effects of the sins of others."For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive".

 

We are in Adam in as much as we are born of Adam, "Born of flesh". We are in Christ in as much as we are reborn in Christ, “Born of Spirit”. (That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit). Just as we Inherited death through being born of Adam (Flesh), we inherit life through being reborn in Christ (Spirit).

 

Christ became a life giving Spirit because of the perfect life of love that He lived. We have access to His Spirit, which in turn gives us life. Without this Spirit we are in what some might call a metaphorical grave, and we will remain there until we allow ourselves to be made new creatures in Christ/His Spirit.

 

The atonement is in God's willingness to allow Jesus to do what He did for us, and in Jesus' willingness to suffer as He did and die by our hands, so that He might bring us to God, and in our willingness to walk in the Spirit that Christ now gives us access to.

 

18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

 

1 Peter 3:18 (KJV)

 

What it comes down to is that the wages of sin are death, and that Christ did something no other could do, which is live a perfect life of obedience. By doing so, He was able to defeat death for us, and now - Just as all die because of Adams sins - All whom are reborn in the Spirit will live because of Christs perfect life. The Spirit gives life; the Lord (Jesus) is that Spirit. (We live in Him and through Him)."

 

DHAWLIA aka GK (GateKeeper)