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The Shack By Wm Paul Young


glintofpewter

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Ouch! We're getting into the tough stuff now, in the book and in our own journeys. The "Where is/was God when..." stuff.

 

I haven't yet reread the 4th chapter, but the one thing that I do appreciate about this book and the personal testimonies here on the forum is that we are honest about these questions and the questions being raised.

 

I haven't lost a child, except for two in miscarriage. And I realize that this is not quite the same as losing one that you have held in your arms. But we have had the experiences of having our children in the hospital and knowing the dread of "just waiting" to see if they are going to make it or not.

 

An experience of my youth came back to me when I first read this chapter and, moderators, you can edit/remove this if you think it necessary to do so. But I was saved when I was twelve and sexually assaulted by a 17-year-old boy when I was 13. Back then, I was very small for my age and powerless to fight him. My relationship with God was so real back then that I cried out to God and to Jesus for help and deliverance during the ordeal - to no effect. I won't go into all of the details but things like this, as I've said before, make you wonder where the all-loving, all-controlling God of the universe is. The Bible is filled with story after story of God delivering people when they cried out for help and real life doesn't seem to match up very well with these ancient stories. Sure, there are also tales in the scriptures of people who suffer, but Christianity focuses mainly on the deliverances. God is the Rock, the Shelter in the Time of Storm, the Mighty Fortress, the Mother Hen who protects the chicks, the Deliverer, the Savior. Not for me, he wasn't.

 

For me, I just don't believe in a God who is in control. Missy's story isn't real, but there are way too many others who are. I don't think "The Shack" really answers the questions of theodicy. But it at least allows us to ask them.

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Bill,

Thank you so much for sharing your experience, and I am so sorry that happened to you! I have experience so much less trauma in my own life, but I have given up on the God that pulls the strings, that goes ZAP, that is a vending machine.

 

I'm sure the stories that survived in the Bible were those of deliverance. With a pre-scientific worldview (or in the "intervening God" worldview), if God didn't deliver you, it was because it was not God's will. Often in that time, people thought you somehow deserved the bad that happened to you. Even if it was because your great, great, great grandmother had sinned :D

 

Good observations!

Janet

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I have given up on the God that pulls the strings, that goes ZAP, that is a vending machine.

 

Me, too, my friend. I was quite bitter for a number of years. But then I began to realize that being mad at God for not rescuing me was about the same as being mad at Superman for not rescuing me. What (or who) I was mad at did not truly exist, only in legends. My story has turned out differently from Mack's, but that's okay. The only way that I could believe in and experience GOD was to stop believing in God. :D

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Bill,

 

12 years old its hard to imagine a worse age I'm sorry.

 

My question was, "Where was my mother?" As a result my default is that parent/God doesn't care or isn't aware. It's tempting to draw a picture with God further and further away. I wasn't bitter I was stoic.

 

Janet

Then the fun part - some of the first theological musings by Mack. He has embraced a stoic, unfeeling faith instead of dealing with the rift in his relationship with God. I would contrast this with the father in the musical "Fiddler on the Roof," who asks God the tough questions. Which one are you more like?

 

Mack had been taught in seminary that "God had completely stopped any overt communication with moderns, preferring to have them only listen to and follow sacred Scripture, properly interpreted of course." Is that what you were taught? How do you think God's voice is heard today (if you do?)

 

Hearing that a Bible study leader spoke in anger to God was a very freeing moment for me. Talking, shouting, crying, laughing are all better than silence in a relationship. "God is still speaking..." in the words of the UCC. Conceiving of the Apocalyptic moment as that moment when heaven comes to earth, when our hands join with God's, because our reading of scripture, our dreams, our visions, our planning, our gut instincts, our hunches, bring to this moment a time when justice reigns, equality rules, hungry are fed, ... is easier than figuring out how it works in my own life. It is a continuing challenge to be present in the moment so I can experience God's call or direction or beauty or ...

 

I knew an artist who walked into her studio each day and said, "OK, God, what are we going to make?"

"Cloistered spirituality seemed to change nothing in the lives of the people he know, except maybe Nan. But she was special. God might really love her..." Do you see God making any difference in people's lives?

 

It is a complex issue but I guess I fall on the believing side. Does God make a difference? or Does believing in God make a difference? or Do people who believe in God make a difference? I can point to believers who make a difference, to people for whom believing has made a difference, but I can't point to places or mmoments where God has made a difference -- when I am standing on the outside looking in. If I am inside that reality then I might say that God has made a difference. I've had intense experiences of God and of Jesus. The stories of these experiences can not be told without the believing, without the words and without the language that makes my reality. And without the believing, without the words, without the language the experiences of God making a difference did not happen.

 

I think people who believe in God make a difference. For better or worse.

 

Janet, you've asked good leading questions and I could go on and on about each.

 

Fun Theology :lol:

 

1. Young is establishing a position against the intelligentsia, moral relativism, intellectual elite ("oncology patients--uh, cancer patients"), higher education and people who think in grays. Perhaps unconsciously, he equates the color gray with meaninglessness.

 

2. Relationship and love are key, especially in understanding sacrifice.

 

3. The Bible is true, not a story with a lesson or a story based on truth.

 

Just thinking

Dutch

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Guest billmc

I appreciate your posts and your thoughts, Dutch. It's interesting to see how people react in different ways to events in our lives. Whereas you and Mack became more stoic, I felt that the failure was on my part -- that God didn't hear me because I had some "secret sin" or that I wasn't praying or reading my Bible enough. I wasn't really ready to lash out at God because I was just a kid. I simply attributed all the bad stuff to my own failings.

 

You and Janet have both hit upon the stuff in this chapter that also stood out to me, so I won't comment further on those. The only other thing from this chapter that stood out is Mack asking, "What kind of father am I?" to let something like this happen to his daughter. Guilt like this is so paralyzing. And, because of my own experiences, I also wondered what kind of father is God to let things happen to his children down here?

 

To me, it makes me ask, what role should a father really play in the life of a family? Especially within the Christian context where it is said that the goal of the Christian is to become more like God, does this mean that the Christian should be as uninvolved and unmoved by the world's pain as God seems to be? If we should become more godly, and God doesn't intervene to stop evil, then why should we?

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Before we move on, I think we should discuss this one just a bit.

 

"Especially within the Christian context where it is said that the goal of the Christian is to become more like God, does this mean that the Christian should be as uninvolved and unmoved by the world's pain as God seems to be? If we should become more godly, and God doesn't intervene to stop evil, then why should we?"

 

This is something I had to reason about and grapple with quite a bit, and while I was doing that I felt pretty angry and disconnected from God. I do not believe that God is unmoved by the world's pain. I believe God is a spiritual presence with us, offering wisdom, energy, strength, encouragement and love, impelling us to be the ones who use our physical bodies to intervene and to be conduits of God's love. I don't think God intervenes, because that would interfere with our free will. But I also think I suffer from an inability to use words to describe God, and that I only have a dim picture of what God is at this point. I'm on a journey, ever seeking.

 

Janet

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Also, I'll answer my own questions...

 

Which one are you more like?

I think I am not like either Mack or Tevye from Fiddler on the Roof. When I hit a bump in my relationship with God, I tend to back off a bit and hit the books. I try to learn as much as I can about how others have wrestled with the issues I have had and what their conclusions are. I also talk with friends quite a bit. However, I have not had that much tragedy in my life, so my time is probably coming...

 

 

How do you think God's voice is heard today (if you do?)

I think God is still inspiring writers, just as God did when the Bible was written. (I'm sorry the canon has been closed) I feel the tuggings on my heart that others may call conscience, and I attribute that to the Holy Spirit. The Methodists say the will of God can be learned by considering scripture, tradition, reason, and experience.

 

Do you see God making any difference in people's lives?

I can see God shaping me, changing my heart. I am much less offended by other people than I used to be. I am easier on myself in many ways. However, I don't know if other people can see any difference.

 

OK, if you guys are ready, I'm okay to move on...

 

Janet

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Guest billmc

Without giving too much away, I think that Young’s ultimate theology about God’s fatherhood is the typical Christian fare that no matter how bad things seem down here, there is another reality coming that has little to do with this reality. It’s typical Pauline doctrine that says that the sufferings of this world cannot be compared to all the good things that God has waiting for us someday. And if we will believe that - that everything will someday be set right - then we can endure the sufferings of this world. For we know that they are only a blip on God’s radar of eternity. So God doesn’t come riding in to save the day or to spare us from our times of “Great Sadness” because these sufferings are ultimately inconsequential and just not worth God’s time to do anything about.

 

Young is saying that there are two realities – now and then, and that “then” is so much longer than “now” that “now” doesn’t really matter. Both realities are real, and they have some overlap, but heaven is so glorious that earth just pales into insignificance. Young’s answer to theodicy is that we live in a fallen, sinful world, that God never planned it to be this way, but that God will someday fix things. It’s the story of fall and redemption and, according to Young, although God may have reasons for why things are the way they are, Mack wouldn’t understand them and so he should just trust in God’s goodness, something which, because of where we are in the story, Mack just can’t do.

 

In contrast, what many Christian mystics say is that it isn’t so much that there is a better world coming (as Young says), but that what we experience here (including the pains and joy) is simply not real. Mystics tend to deny the reality of the suffering or the reality of this world. God doesn’t come riding in to save the day because there is, in reality, nothing to save anyone from. Everything is perfect as it already is – if only we could see it. What we might call “reality” is, in fact, not really real. It is only a façade, like a movie that God is watching in his own home theater where none of the events, none of the characters, none of the stories are real. Like Young, mystics seem to think that God’s reality and human reality are two completely different things. For Young, God’s reality comes later. For mystics, God’s reality is now, what we might call the substrate, but everything human and what happens to humans is merely a false projection on a screen or a false perception.

 

To me, Young’s view and the mystical view are both self-delusions of escapism. Young says that suffering is inconsequential because it is only temporal. Mystics say that suffering is inconsequential because it isn’t real. Neither take it seriously. Or maybe the only way that both of these worldviews can both deal with suffering is by minimizing it – Young by saying it is temporal, mystics by saying it doesn’t really exist.

 

I, on the other hand, insist that both this world and its suffering really do exist and that God is not going to coming riding in to save the day, either now or later. If there is anything to be done about suffering, it is we, not God, who must do something about it. If we don’t, then we will continue to live with it.

 

If there is another “perfect world” coming, then I know nothing about it and put no trust in it. Why? Because if things are the way they are now, there is no logical reason to assume that things must get better, especially at the hands of a God who is supposedly in control. It is a nice hope, a nice fairy-tale, but if God really wanted a perfect world, he could have kept it that way in the first place.

 

And while I might agree with the mystics that there is an Ultimate Reality, a substrate to this reality, I think that this Ultimate Reality lends itself to making this reality more real, not to offering us a way to escape it. I suspect that the mystical view of Ultimate Reality helps them to escape the hurts and pains of this world by insisting that they are not real, that, seen from God’s view, everything is perfect and just as it should be, everything in its place according to some great design.

 

My Ultimately Reality helps me deal with the hurts and pains of this world by saying that they are real, that things are not perfect, but that we have the capability to make things better. We don’t have heaven on earth, but we need not have hell here either.

 

So, in conclusion, I think both the conservative Christian view and the mystical view of suffering are simply offering a form of escapism. Young says we escape from reality by remembering how temporary it is and by trusting that God will allow us to someday re-enter the Garden. Mystics say that we escape from reality by believing that what we call reality is not really real, that what we see and experience all around us is only God playing “make believe” with the universe. It is all a dream within a dream.

 

I say that we must deal with reality as it is and that God doesn’t want us to escape from it by looking to heaven someday or by pretending that this world is not real. For me, I don’t find either Young’s view or the mystical view to be persuasive. I’m a humanist that believes and tries to live out some of the teachings of Jesus. For me, those teachings don’t say that we should ignore suffering by looking for a future world or to pretend that they don’t exist. But this is my path, and I realize that it is not for everyone.

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"I say that we must deal with reality as it is and that God doesn’t want us to escape from it by looking to heaven someday or by pretending that this world is not real. For me, I don’t find either Young’s view or the mystical view to be persuasive. I’m a humanist that believes and tries to live out some of the teachings of Jesus. For me, those teachings don’t say that we should ignore suffering by looking for a future world or to pretend that they don’t exist. But this is my path, and I realize that it is not for everyone."

 

I think our mission here is to help God's kingdom come on earth by alleviating suffering for others however we can. I am on the same path. However, I am not a humanist, because I think it is God who motivates humans to want to make the world a better place for others. Whether people call God God or not. I totally agree that we should not ignore suffering. I think it has been a coping mechanism for th oppressed to say, "This life sucks, but it is only for a short time. Something better must be coming." Even within those groups there have arisen leaders who try to alleviate the suffering of their people.

 

I agree with you. It is one of the reasons the book is not one I would have written. But, it is interesting and thought-provoking nonetheless.

 

Janet

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I am already stuck on Chapter 5 with the first sentence...

"There are times when you choose to believe something that would normally be considered absolutely irrational. That doesn't mean that it is actually irrational, but it surely is not rational. perhaps there is suprarationality: reason beyond the normal definitions of fact or data-based logic; something that only makes sense if you can see a bigger picture of reality. Maybe that is where faith fits in."

 

Can't a person have a rationalized faith that makes sense within the reality they know? Or am I over-analyzing this?

 

Janet

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Janet,

 

I thought Young was over-reaching. I have no idea how one can know a reality beyond what one knows. (I use "know" in the broadest sense. If you have words and language for it then you "know" it and it is part of your reality.) Perhaps Young is trying to change the framework and dodge accusations that religion and faith are irrational and illogical. The real question is the identity of this person, "Normal," because I think Young is carrying on a conversation with "Norma(n)".

 

Dutch

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I think the idea of "Tomorrow/heaven, Tomorrow/heaven is just a day away." is appropriate in life and in our stories but not in dogma. We need visions, hunches, dreams, endurance, perseverance, so that heaven can come to earth in the next moment. When there is oppression the oppressed will talk of a better day and some will work, struggle and battle for it. Authors of fiction will write versions of Revelations to encourage the oppressed. Others will work to overthrow the oppressors. I think we need the "pull" or "thug" of a better day, of love.

 

I think in ICU, in depression, in a natural disaster, under oppression, we need to believe in a better day. They say men commit suicide because they can't find a (better) way, a solution to their problems. (Women are crying for help.)

 

Besides, we wouldn't have many gospel songs. :D

 

Chapter 5 brief notes

 

I identified with Mack's trek to the cabin; felt it was realistic description of a fearful person who knew that somehow or other the journey was required. Physical, emotional, mental dis-ease.

 

Missy's picture, a note from Papa, and a gun. I imagine many in the Armed Forces in Iraq carry similar items. How is Mack's situation like theirs? Mack is prepared for battle. What is the worst he can imagine? Death? Pain? He has lost his life protecting himself from Missy's death and his pain.

 

Mack believes he has run out of options and thus considers suicide.

 

When Mack has given up God appears. Many of our shared stories recount such moments. when we give up, give in, stop insisting on our way, our point, - and relax - at this moment the light comes on, the voices merge, a solution appears. God. A common trope in the Star Trek series is that a conflict or struggle is won by ceasing to struggle. It is not the only way. Certainly we share stories of persistence and dogged determination that win the day. But letting go of our ego often brings good results.

 

I am in love with the family: the earthy Elousia, the luminous and seemly evanescent Sarayu, and Jesus, the fixit man.

 

 

Bill, Janet,

 

I will not be back until Sunday evening Colorado time. Save all your posts for me. :lol: I know you will have a lot to say so don't slow down. I will catch up.

 

Dutch

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Guest billmc

I am already stuck on Chapter 5 with the first sentence...

"There are times when you choose to believe something that would normally be considered absolutely irrational. That doesn't mean that it is actually irrational, but it surely is not rational. perhaps there is suprarationality: reason beyond the normal definitions of fact or data-based logic; something that only makes sense if you can see a bigger picture of reality. Maybe that is where faith fits in."

 

Can't a person have a rationalized faith that makes sense within the reality they know? Or am I over-analyzing this?

 

Janet

 

Yeah, that's got me a bit flumaxed(sp?) also, Janet. Sometimes we read or hear people's words and it's difficult to discern on which end of the conversation things are just not translating well.

 

Now, I'm not Young, but I've felt like Mack feels and so I would translate the first sentence thus...

"There are times when you choose to open yourself to experience something that doesn't always make complete sense. That doesn't mean that you are looking for nonsense, just that you desire to know or experience more than you have before. Because it is the limitation of humanity that we only "know in part" or "experience in part", we can open ourselves up to move into the unknown or the unexperienced through what we call faith, trusting that our further growth will justify the risks we have taken to "go where no one has gone before.""

 

That's kinda how I would put it.

 

I see my own faith as quite rational. I am open to experiencing the more, but not as blind faith, only if I think it makes me or the world a better place. For example, I don't want to experience what people call "demonic posession" just so that I can explore the unknown and say I've done it. :P I look for the More that, according to the compass of my roots, leads to the better. And sometimes that is risky, especially if one comes from a faith that is said to be changeless.

 

BTW, a small note of clarification on my prior post, if I may. When I said that I am a humanist, I am juxtaposing that against against the theist. Typically, the theist waits for God to bail him/her out of situations or to make things better, often asking for answered prayers or divine intervention. The theist usually looks to a God "out there" to come to the aid or to fix things. The humanist doesn't look for some deity to bail him/her out of life's circumstances. The humanist looks to self and to community for a way to make things better. In a sense, the humanist feels that if change is going to come, it comes through human hands, not through divine action.

 

I, of course, believe in GOD. But this GOD doesn't come from without to save the day. This GOD empowers me from with, often giving me courage to "go where no one has gone before." Some might say that I simply belief in myself. Maybe there is some warrant to that. But believing in one's self often carries the negative connotation of "setting out to get what you want in life" whether that is money, power, prestige, fame, sex, etc. My belief in the GOD-empowered self is not to "make all my dreams come true" for me, but to empower me to make a difference for the good to those around me. The theistic bent would pray in faith that God would send a cup of water to someone who was thirsty, expecting God to act. My humanist bent would actually get a cup of water and give it to someone who was thirsty, recognizing that GOD, or the divine, is present in BOTH of us so it matters how we treat and respond to one another.

 

Hope that clears things up a bit.

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Yes! Thank you for helping me understand. I love the way you put it so much better than how Young did!

 

Also, thanks Bill, for explaining the humanist description. I understand what you are getting at.

 

Dutch, thanks for your notes on Ch.5! Are you off this weekend to your own personal "Shack"?? Didn't notice we are both in Colorado :-) I loved your insights about possible connections to soldiers in Iraq and that the idea that we have to give up our own way to find God.

 

My observations from Ch. 5:

 

"Sometimes honesty can be incredibly messy." This is the way I used to live my life, but now I really believe honesty is the best policy!

 

What would have happened if Mack had accepted Willie's offer to accompany him or had picked up Tommy in Joseph? Would he have missed his encounter with God? Is it important for us to find solitary time to be with God?

 

I'm glad that Mack screamed his anguished questions heavenward! I think that was a healthy way of dealing with what must have been horrible emotions. Interesting that he considered suicide a way of striking back at God.

 

I loved how the terrible shack scene faded to one that was something Mack could have only imagined in his dreams with fragrances arousing hints of memories long forgotten.

 

It's cool how "Papa" breached every social propriety! I was SO shocked at what Papa was like! I remember thinking how COOL the book was the first time I read that. I agree that the whole trinity was loveable (and very creatively described), Dutch!

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Guest billmc

What would have happened if Mack had accepted Willie's offer to accompany him or had picked up Tommy in Joseph? Would he have missed his encounter with God? Is it important for us to find solitary time to be with God?

 

Interesting question. Can I ask, do you believe in fate? Do you think we can "miss" God?

 

I loved how the terrible shack scene faded to one that was something Mack could have only imagined in his dreams with fragrances arousing hints of memories long forgotten.

 

Yes, it was a wonderful description. I felt like the book left prose and went to poetry. While Mack's following experiences are both hard and wonderful, I have a problem that Young resorts to having Mack have a sort of mystical experience to help remedy his grief and anguish. As far as I know, most people don't have these kinds of experiences. So while I think it is good and interesting storytelling to have Mack go through his "shack" experience, I think it is ultimately a copout. Many people go through similar things in life and, sadly, the Trinity doesn't show up and make everything okay for them. So while I enjoy the story, I don't find it prescriptive or helpful.

 

But that's just me and I'm a hard nut to crack! :D

 

It's cool how "Papa" breached every social propriety! I was SO shocked at what Papa was like! I remember thinking how COOL the book was the first time I read that. I agree that the whole trinity was loveable (and very creatively described), Dutch!

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Bill,

Nope. At this point I don't think I believe in fate. I do believe we can "miss" God. In fact, I believe that is what often happens -- we are not attuned to God at times.

 

I agree that the mystical experience is a bit frustrating, because it would have been more practical to have Mack be freed without that. Maybe he could have joined a support group at church and meditated on Bible verses or visited a psychologist, but that wouldn't have been as fun reading :-)

 

I remember reading a great book about how to pick up the pieces when life doesn't turn out as you expected. But right now it is slipping my mind. Hopefully I'll be able to send more on that. "When Bad Things Happen to Good People" is similar, and also good, but not what I'm thinking of... Have you read any good books on the subject? Or how did you practically get through the grief in your life?

 

Janet

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Guest billmc

Or how did you practically get through the grief in your life?

 

I've never found a magic bullet or a one-size-fits-all answer to this, Janet. Life is complex and so are our hurts and griefs. But I would say that, overall, I got through it best by having a loving support network of friends and family to listen, to give me space, and to reassure me that things were not over.

 

I did enjoy the interesting twist on the Trinity in this chapter. While I certainly don't believe that God is a big ol' black woman who goes around hugging people, I would agree that we find God in the strangest places and, sometimes, in the strangest people. :D

 

The other thing that kinda irked me from this chapter is the way that everything shifts to a Disney woodland scene or a Thomas Kincaid painting when God shows up at the shack. It's beautiful imagery of course but it seems to suggest that when God comes, everything around us changes for the better. I don't want to reveal any spoilers for the book, but it seems closer to the truth, IMO, that God is more prone to changing us, not our circumstances. Jesus' death is, for me, a prime example of God not answering the "Why have You forsaken me?" cry and he died trusting in a God who was silent towards his suffering.

 

The characters in the chapter are very interesting though and I enjoy Young's descriptions.

 

I'm done with my thoughts on this chapter so I'd like to hear from Dutch and then move on when we are all ready.

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Bill,

 

I agree that your rewrite was much better than Young's attempt, but I think he was reaching for some new rhetoric and a conversation with Normal, those who would say that Christianity is not logical. He failed.

 

Bill

Yes, it was a wonderful description. I felt like the book left prose and went to poetry. While Mack's following experiences are both hard and wonderful, I have a problem that Young resorts to having Mack have a sort of mystical experience to help remedy his grief and anguish. As far as I know, most people don't have these kinds of experiences.

 

In another time in my life if I recognized that I was uptight or hiding from an emotion I would write stream of conscious whatever came out of the pen. Eventually I would spiral in to exact problem. When I found what I could not say - and then said it I broke down and cried and cried. When the crying was over and my burden lifted the world looked almost as fresh as Young describes it. I did feel as light as Mack does after his encounter with Sarayu.

 

I have also had an ecstatic experience or two. Whether they are up or down the effect of these mountain top experiences lasts for a while - but not for the rest of my life. For similar Biblical experiences compare Lamentations 1 and Song of Solomon 2:8-15.

 

Bill

 

My belief in the GOD-empowered self is not to "make all my dreams come true" for me, but to empower me to make a difference for the good to those around me.

 

I totally agree. Breathing out and breathing in. The horizontal call to be a blessing to others and the Personal work, the vertical call, that supports that.

 

Janet

Is it important for us to find solitary time to be with God?

 

Absolutely. And there can be wonderful, spiritual experiences in community. Sometimes several people will exclaim, "Did you feel that!!??"

 

Bill

 

Interesting question. Can I ask, do you believe in fate? Do you think we can "miss" God?

Yes, but I don't believe it is a "one time thing" if seeking God is your focus. You will recognize the opportunity another time. It is not a "last chance to change your life." kind of opportunity.

 

 

 

Janet,

I agree that the mystical experience is a bit frustrating, because it would have been more practical to have Mack be freed without that. Maybe he could have joined a support group at church and meditated on Bible verses or visited a psychologist, but that wouldn't have been as fun reading.

 

There is more than way. I also see a counselor and met with a pastor twice and it was very beneficial. (Pastors should never never, never do long term counseling.) Sometimes I think of my counselor as my "paid" friend.

 

One or two more comments

 

Young seems to use "cold" to create a picture of Mack's emotions. Frozen in time; the gray dead of winter.

 

It was cold enough that his breath hung in the air around him, and it felt as if it might snow. The pain that had been building in his stomach finally pushed into panic. After only fie steps, he stopped and retched so strongly that it brought to his knees. p. 77 in my copy of the book.

 

When I am very anxious my feet feel like they are freezing no matter how many blankets cover them. Mack's behavior on his walk to the shacks seem very realistic.

 

"So where are you God?

 

My answer is not a complete explanation but I often reply, "What matters is not what happens, but who you are with at the time." Unfortunately, sometimes it is someone who says, God doesn't give you more than you can handle." or "God is working a greater good," or as St. Augustine, "Your soul chose this assignment before you were created." It such a case you have to find other companions which is not always possible.

 

Dutch

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Guest billmc

Dutch, you have some good ideas in your post and I wonder if I might gently nudge you for a little more?

 

In another time in my life if I recognized that I was uptight or hiding from an emotion I would write stream of conscious whatever came out of the pen. Eventually I would spiral in to exact problem. When I found what I could not say - and then said it I broke down and cried and cried. When the crying was over and my burden lifted the world looked almost as fresh as Young describes it. I did feel as light as Mack does after his encounter with Sarayu.

 

I, too, have had a couple of similar experiences. Would you call this process "owning the pain" or confession or something like that? Do you think that when things are sometimes painful for us, we are too quick to try to rid ourselves of it?

 

And there can be wonderful, spiritual experiences in community. Sometimes several people will exclaim, "Did you feel that!!??"

 

When I was younger and into the Pentecostal movement, we had "Holy Ghost" services that were very ecstatic. We all got "caught up" in what we believed God was doing and, honestly, time seemed to disappear. We would be in a service for 5 hours and it only seemed like 20 minutes. I'm sure I don't agree with much of that theology anymore, but there was, in some sense, something transcendant about the experiences, about forgetting about one's self for a time and just rejoicing with others. That seems to be what Mack is doing when he first meets the Trinity. He knows that none of it makes sense, but he is caught up in the love.

 

Yes, but I don't believe it is a "one time thing" if seeking God is your focus. You will recognize the opportunity another time. It is not a "last chance to change your life." kind of opportunity.

 

I'm glad for that. I would have to change my name to "Missy". :D

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Bill,

Would you call this process "owning the pain" or confession or something like that? Do you think that when things are sometimes painful for us, we are too quick to try to rid ourselves of it?

 

I think we are too quick to "stuff it" as Mack had done. Discovering what is so painful is like confession: confession to your soul. Some would say confession to God. Whatever the words it is a purging and a releasing. Since you have allowed yourself to recognize and know yourself maybe we could say that it is similar to the experience of those who experienced being known by Jesus and forgiven by Jesus. (If it is not arrogant too say that.)

 

I identify with Mike's hesitancy to getting in touch with his feeling about Missy's death. The emotions overwhelm and embarrass. it must be a very safe place to talk about them. Since introductions are barely over now is not the time. Sometimes just being hugged can bring tears.

 

Yes we are too quick to move beyond the pain. If I keep in touch with the my experience, I usually feel a sense of vulnerability and generosity of the spirit, heighten sense of the people and the world around me.

 

But there was, in some sense, something transcendent about the experiences, about forgetting about one's self for a time and just rejoicing with others. That seems to be what Mack is doing when he first meets the Trinity. He knows that none of it makes sense, but he is caught up in the love.

 

I have not read the end of "The Shack". But the question for me is whether the experience is durable. Did the experience feed me for a part of my journey and can I retell it from the place I was when I experienced it. That, is have I changed how I tell it or stopped telling because of my "maturity" that believes there are more "rational" explanations. In doing this we deflate its value to us by deconstruction. I believe we should keep these experiences as they were. Tell them as you did right after the experience. Then they are part of my "old testament". I think such stories are valuable because they create a history of my divine journey. They messy; they might embarrass me to tell but if I tell with integrity and tell as I experienced them I am whole. To do anything less is to loose a part of self and one's journey. I do think that what I have just said leads to an argument of keeping the canon whole.

 

There are several praise songs that I love to sing. I don't spend too much time trying to change the words in my head so that they are theologically acceptable. :P

 

Dutch

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Guest billmc

I think we are too quick to "stuff it" as Mack had done.

 

Me, too, Dutch. I realize that we are all different, but I remember when I went through my divorce back in '85, it was so painful that I just wanted it to be over, wanted the pain to end. I allowed the pain to transmute into bitterness and distance, isolation - much like I think Mack is doing.

 

I stayed this way for about 3 years and it was hell. I didn't know it at the time, of course. I just thought I was protecting myself. But I was dying inside - to myself, to others, to life, to God.

 

I eventually came to see that I needed to "own the pain" and I realized that what society calls divorce was, for me, the death of a person - the "one" that two people become when they are married. That "person" had died and I had pretended that it was just me and her going our seperate ways. But when I began to allow myself to feel the death of that pain, of that loss, I was somehow able to confess what I did that led to that "person's" death and to come out on the other side. I needed to realize that death and to, essentially, bury it in order to move on with my life. I know way too many people who are dragging around the corpses of their prior marriages with them, not really acknowledging the deaths, and not allowing for the burials. I didn't find some measure of healing until I did that.

 

There are several praise songs that I love to sing. I don't spend too much time trying to change the words in my head so that they are theologically acceptable. :P

 

Me, too. I haven't yet "worked out" whether this is hypocrisy on my part, but I still feel some kind of tie with history through these old forms that I mentally reject but emotionally find a sense of connectedness in.

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Bill,

 

I eventually came to see that I needed to "own the pain" and I realized that what society calls divorce was, for me, the death of a person - the "one" that two people become when they are married. That "person" had died and I had pretended that it was just me and her going our separate ways. But when I began to allow myself to feel the death of that pain, of that loss, I was somehow able to confess what I did that led to that "person's" death and to come out on the other side. I needed to realize that death and to, essentially, bury it in order to move on with my life. I know way too many people who are dragging around the corpses of their prior marriages with them, not really acknowledging the deaths, and not allowing for the burials. I didn't find some measure of healing until I did that.

I am stunned by this wonderful concept that the relationship is a person and has died.

 

Dutch

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Sorry, guys! I've been down with flu for a couple of days. I loved the conversations about "owning the pain." Also, I struggle all the time with the praise songs issue, since I choose music for our worship quite often. Most of the time I throw out songs that I don't agree with theologically, but it's probably my loss. I continue to sing a couple I don't agree with because fellow band-mates love them, and I just think the whole time when I am singing, "I am doing this in love, even if I don't believe it."

 

Anyway, it's definitely a side point to the book, but interesting!

 

Janet

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